Greetings. I have a question about submissions to a literary agent. Let's say I find an agent who might be interested in my novel and who requests, say, the first three chapters. On the off-chance that this agent reads it and requests more (praise be), what should I then have ready to send out? Or, more to the point, what's typically then requested? The balance of the novel? A synopsis? Just curious as to what might be requested and in what order so that I could have those items ready in advance rather than scramble when and if the request comes in. Thanks
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SRHowen
if by say chance they ask for three chapters, they will most likely ask for a synopsis as well.
What to have ready once they have the sample chapters by request--you best have the entire ms ready to send.
Shawn
What to have ready once they have the sample chapters by request--you best have the entire ms ready to send.
Shawn
Jamesaritchie
Yes, generally speaking, an agent who asks for three chapters also wants a synopsis and/or an outline to go along with the sample chapters.
A "standard" partial consists of a synopsis, the first three chapters, and an outline. When the agent asks for more, it means the completed, polished manuscript.
A "standard" partial consists of a synopsis, the first three chapters, and an outline. When the agent asks for more, it means the completed, polished manuscript.
jpstewar
Interesting. That makes perfect sense. The novel is near done (just getting edits back from a reader) and so I won't be sending query letter out to an agent until that's done. But now I realize I need a synopsis and outline to go along with the chapters. Thanks.
SFEley
Jpstewar wrote:
Well, you don't know that you'll need one. And you don't need to have one now. If you feel it's a good exercise during revision or otherwise useful to you, go for it. If not, you could always wait until an agent asks for one; if it then takes you a few days to put a synopsis together, it's not like the agent's going to be tapping his feet and looking at his watch.
A few months back I spent about a week writing a fifteen-page outline of my novel to send to a publisher. (A few people here were kind enough to review it for me.) The editor asked for the whole book instead, so I haven't needed it yet. Two weeks ago an agent asked for a sample and a five-page synopsis. I found out quickly that condensing my fifteen-page outline into five pages didn't work. I had to start from scratch, and it took me about a week. Oddly enough, I think it captures the book better than the longer one did.
But now I realize I need a synopsis and outline to go along with the chapters. Thanks.
Well, you don't know that you'll need one. And you don't need to have one now. If you feel it's a good exercise during revision or otherwise useful to you, go for it. If not, you could always wait until an agent asks for one; if it then takes you a few days to put a synopsis together, it's not like the agent's going to be tapping his feet and looking at his watch.
A few months back I spent about a week writing a fifteen-page outline of my novel to send to a publisher. (A few people here were kind enough to review it for me.) The editor asked for the whole book instead, so I haven't needed it yet. Two weeks ago an agent asked for a sample and a five-page synopsis. I found out quickly that condensing my fifteen-page outline into five pages didn't work. I had to start from scratch, and it took me about a week. Oddly enough, I think it captures the book better than the longer one did.
Jyndral
But now I realize I need a synopsis and outline to go along with the chapters.
You just need the synopsis. An outline is what you send instead of a synopsis with nonfiction works.
cwfgal
For an agent
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But now I realize I need a synopsis and outline to go along with the chapters. Thanks. <hr></blockquote>
You only need the synopsis. An outline is for nonfiction works. Keep your synopsis to about 4 pages if you can and include all the major plot points, characters, and conflicts. Do not make the mistake I did and withhold the ending.
Good luck!
Beth
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But now I realize I need a synopsis and outline to go along with the chapters. Thanks. <hr></blockquote>
You only need the synopsis. An outline is for nonfiction works. Keep your synopsis to about 4 pages if you can and include all the major plot points, characters, and conflicts. Do not make the mistake I did and withhold the ending.
Good luck!
Beth
Jamesaritchie
Re: For an agent
No, an outline is also for novels. More often than not, you need both a synopsis and an outline for selling a novel.
A synopsis is a short, 1-5 page, overview of the entire novel. An outline is much longer, is most often done chapter by chapter, and can be 100 pages in length, though most are shorter.
Being able to write a good outline for the novel is one of the most valuable selling tools a new writer can have.
A "standard" novel partial at the publishers and agents I've dealt with is pretty simple. When you open the package, you find a cover letter on top. Under this is a short synopsis. Under this is the first three chapters of the novel. Under this should be a detailed, chapter by chapter outline of every chapter after chapter three.
Some writers, Robert J. Sawyer comes first to mind, write outlines that are much like synopses, but they do write a synopsis and an outline for every novel. Sawyer does it in reverse of most writers I know, writing the outline before the novel is written, and the synopsis after the novel is written, but it still works.
But it is much easier for most writers to write a detailed outline after the novel is finished.
Outlines are NOT just for nonfiction works, and a new writer who doesn't know how to write and use an outline is at a serious disadvantage.
My own novel outlines were always roughly forty pages in length, which is probably above average, but still shorter than some writers I've known.
I've sold my last three novels based only on a one or two paragraph synopsis of the novel, but outlines for novels ar estill extremly valuable, and every new writer should know how to write one.
The query letter just isn't a very good tool for new writers. Neither is a synopsis without a good outline. It's much easier to get an agent if the agent can actually read your fiction, and a novel proposal, complete with both synopsis and a detailed outline, fits in a small package, and can save both the writer and the agent much valuable time.
The sunopsis, three chapter, plus detailed outline is also an excellent selling tool for editors, and I know several agents who prefer to submit to publishers using this package.
No, an outline is also for novels. More often than not, you need both a synopsis and an outline for selling a novel.
A synopsis is a short, 1-5 page, overview of the entire novel. An outline is much longer, is most often done chapter by chapter, and can be 100 pages in length, though most are shorter.
Being able to write a good outline for the novel is one of the most valuable selling tools a new writer can have.
A "standard" novel partial at the publishers and agents I've dealt with is pretty simple. When you open the package, you find a cover letter on top. Under this is a short synopsis. Under this is the first three chapters of the novel. Under this should be a detailed, chapter by chapter outline of every chapter after chapter three.
Some writers, Robert J. Sawyer comes first to mind, write outlines that are much like synopses, but they do write a synopsis and an outline for every novel. Sawyer does it in reverse of most writers I know, writing the outline before the novel is written, and the synopsis after the novel is written, but it still works.
But it is much easier for most writers to write a detailed outline after the novel is finished.
Outlines are NOT just for nonfiction works, and a new writer who doesn't know how to write and use an outline is at a serious disadvantage.
My own novel outlines were always roughly forty pages in length, which is probably above average, but still shorter than some writers I've known.
I've sold my last three novels based only on a one or two paragraph synopsis of the novel, but outlines for novels ar estill extremly valuable, and every new writer should know how to write one.
The query letter just isn't a very good tool for new writers. Neither is a synopsis without a good outline. It's much easier to get an agent if the agent can actually read your fiction, and a novel proposal, complete with both synopsis and a detailed outline, fits in a small package, and can save both the writer and the agent much valuable time.
The sunopsis, three chapter, plus detailed outline is also an excellent selling tool for editors, and I know several agents who prefer to submit to publishers using this package.
JuliePgh
Re: For an agent
When you say 4 or 5 pages synopsis and chapter outline, etc, are we talking double spaced and using the same formatting specs as is used for the full ms? Thanks
When you say 4 or 5 pages synopsis and chapter outline, etc, are we talking double spaced and using the same formatting specs as is used for the full ms? Thanks
Jamesaritchie
Re: For an agent
Synopses are usually single spaced, so five pages can be 2,500 words.
Long, chapter by chapter outlines are most often double-spaced.
There are several methods of writing a synopsis, but both a synopsis and an outline should be in present tense.
Synopses are usually single spaced, so five pages can be 2,500 words.
Long, chapter by chapter outlines are most often double-spaced.
There are several methods of writing a synopsis, but both a synopsis and an outline should be in present tense.
Writing Again
Re: For an agent
Jamesaritchie
Haven't got a clue.
We just used to put the ms in a box and send it away.
Jamesaritchie
Being able to write a good outline for the novel is one of the most valuable selling tools a new writer can have.
Haven't got a clue.
We just used to put the ms in a box and send it away.
mr mistook
Re: For an agent
In those first three chapters, they are looking at the writing style, I presume. How much are they looking at plot development? Do they want everything on the rails and running full steam by the end of chapter three?
Also, can you point us to places where we can see sample outlines?
In those first three chapters, they are looking at the writing style, I presume. How much are they looking at plot development? Do they want everything on the rails and running full steam by the end of chapter three?
Also, can you point us to places where we can see sample outlines?
cwfgal
For an agent
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The sunopsis, three chapter, plus detailed outline is also an excellent selling tool for editors, and I know several agents who prefer to submit to publishers using this package. <hr></blockquote>
Just goes to show that your mileage may vary in this business. I've sold three novels, had three agents, and written over 100 queries to both agents and editors. I have never had a single person ask for an outline for a novel. I did write a chapter-by-chapter outline for the first novel I sold (because I read advice on a board like this one that said you should) but no one ever asked for an outline and I never used it. For me it was a complete waste of time and paper but that's not to say that it can't be helpful for someone else.
Whichever way you decide to go, best of luck.
Beth
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The sunopsis, three chapter, plus detailed outline is also an excellent selling tool for editors, and I know several agents who prefer to submit to publishers using this package. <hr></blockquote>
Just goes to show that your mileage may vary in this business. I've sold three novels, had three agents, and written over 100 queries to both agents and editors. I have never had a single person ask for an outline for a novel. I did write a chapter-by-chapter outline for the first novel I sold (because I read advice on a board like this one that said you should) but no one ever asked for an outline and I never used it. For me it was a complete waste of time and paper but that's not to say that it can't be helpful for someone else.
Whichever way you decide to go, best of luck.
Beth
gp101
synopsis format
When I asked on these boards last week about synopses, I was directed to a site containing a 7- or 8-part lecture written by Lisa Gardner; very helpful info (my regrets--I cannot remember the web address) on how to write a synopsis, format, and two examples of synoses from writers who got published.
Thing is, she said go double-spaced, which I have, and limit it to 4 pages. James Ritchie above in this thread says it's usually single-spaced. Anyone have the definitive answer? Obviously it makes a huge difference and I'm struggling to keep this synopsis to four pages.
When I asked on these boards last week about synopses, I was directed to a site containing a 7- or 8-part lecture written by Lisa Gardner; very helpful info (my regrets--I cannot remember the web address) on how to write a synopsis, format, and two examples of synoses from writers who got published.
Thing is, she said go double-spaced, which I have, and limit it to 4 pages. James Ritchie above in this thread says it's usually single-spaced. Anyone have the definitive answer? Obviously it makes a huge difference and I'm struggling to keep this synopsis to four pages.
Jamesaritchie
Re: synopsis format
Many agents and editors ask for outlines, and many who don't still find them very, very useful. Some don't ask because, unfortunately, they don't know to ask. Others don't ask because they think the writer will know. Many mean "outline" when they ask for a synopsis. I can't tell you how many times I've seen otherwise very good agents ask for a "detailed, chapter by chapter synopsis." Quite a few don't ask simply because they deal primarily with query letters, and when this is the case it's simpler just to ask for the completed manuscript.
Ultimately, a novel sells because it's a good novel, but providing an outline when sending sample chapters is never a bad idea. Under the worst circumstances it does no harm, and under the best it can mean the difference between a rejection and an acceptance.
But it is true that if you just write a query letter and/or a synopsis, an agent or editor will then usually just ask for the completed manuscript. Trouble is, very few new writers managne to find a good agent who will say yes and ask for the completed manuscript when the only tools the writer uses are the query letter and synopsis. So far more often than not, the agent simply says "no thanks."
Outlines are for use when you're trying to avoid the simple query letter/synopsis route. It can be very difficult for a first time novelist to find a good agent using only a query letter with synopsis.
Even when guidelines state that a writer should "query only," this doesn't always mean just a query letter. Many good agents consider the synopsis/chapters/outline, as long as the total is under 100 pages, as a query.
Assuming a new writer has good fiction skills, it just easier to find an agent if the agent is actually reading the writer's fiction, rather than a query letter/synopsis that only tells the agent about the writer's fiction.
Some writers, Robert J. Sawyer, for example, write an outline first and use it to sell their next novel.
The real point is that a properly put together novel partial, complete with an outline, is a valuable selling tool, even if the agent or editor doesn't specifically ask for it. I think more new writers would find an agent much faster, or at least learn why agents keep saying no, if they used a novel partial instead of a query letter whenever possible.
But you're right, do whatever works. But if the straight query letter and synopsis isn't working, it might be time to try a complete novel partial.
Many agents and editors ask for outlines, and many who don't still find them very, very useful. Some don't ask because, unfortunately, they don't know to ask. Others don't ask because they think the writer will know. Many mean "outline" when they ask for a synopsis. I can't tell you how many times I've seen otherwise very good agents ask for a "detailed, chapter by chapter synopsis." Quite a few don't ask simply because they deal primarily with query letters, and when this is the case it's simpler just to ask for the completed manuscript.
Ultimately, a novel sells because it's a good novel, but providing an outline when sending sample chapters is never a bad idea. Under the worst circumstances it does no harm, and under the best it can mean the difference between a rejection and an acceptance.
But it is true that if you just write a query letter and/or a synopsis, an agent or editor will then usually just ask for the completed manuscript. Trouble is, very few new writers managne to find a good agent who will say yes and ask for the completed manuscript when the only tools the writer uses are the query letter and synopsis. So far more often than not, the agent simply says "no thanks."
Outlines are for use when you're trying to avoid the simple query letter/synopsis route. It can be very difficult for a first time novelist to find a good agent using only a query letter with synopsis.
Even when guidelines state that a writer should "query only," this doesn't always mean just a query letter. Many good agents consider the synopsis/chapters/outline, as long as the total is under 100 pages, as a query.
Assuming a new writer has good fiction skills, it just easier to find an agent if the agent is actually reading the writer's fiction, rather than a query letter/synopsis that only tells the agent about the writer's fiction.
Some writers, Robert J. Sawyer, for example, write an outline first and use it to sell their next novel.
The real point is that a properly put together novel partial, complete with an outline, is a valuable selling tool, even if the agent or editor doesn't specifically ask for it. I think more new writers would find an agent much faster, or at least learn why agents keep saying no, if they used a novel partial instead of a query letter whenever possible.
But you're right, do whatever works. But if the straight query letter and synopsis isn't working, it might be time to try a complete novel partial.
Jamesaritchie
Re: synopsis format
The reason synopses are single-spaced is because there's no reason to double-space them. Double-spacing is to give editors room between the lines to do their job. They use this space for notes, for editing marks, and for proofreader's marks.
Synopses are never edited, so there's no need to allow this extra space between sentences.
Double-spacing also means you have only half as much room to say whatever it is you want to say about the novel.
A query letter and a synopsis are really best thought of as business letters. That's what they are, and they should be formatted accordingly.
No one will shoot you, or even reject you, because you double-space a synopsis. But there is no reason to do so, you are greatly limiting your space, and agents and editors are used to seeing query letters and synopses that are single-spaced.
The reason synopses are single-spaced is because there's no reason to double-space them. Double-spacing is to give editors room between the lines to do their job. They use this space for notes, for editing marks, and for proofreader's marks.
Synopses are never edited, so there's no need to allow this extra space between sentences.
Double-spacing also means you have only half as much room to say whatever it is you want to say about the novel.
A query letter and a synopsis are really best thought of as business letters. That's what they are, and they should be formatted accordingly.
No one will shoot you, or even reject you, because you double-space a synopsis. But there is no reason to do so, you are greatly limiting your space, and agents and editors are used to seeing query letters and synopses that are single-spaced.
katdad
It depends on the agency. But if the agent asks for the 3 chapters, then also include a 2-3 page synopsis as well. That will be fine.
The next thing that will be requested is always the full novel. If the agent likes the 3 chapters that's the next step.
If you're asked for those 3 first chapters, I'd suggest you bend the rules a bit and also add maybe 2 more chapters that you consider significant. As long as you submit what's requested, you can do a bit more too as long as you don't go overboard.
So anyway, always have that full novel ready for submission.
Make sure you have a clean, neat copy to send. Go thru each page to verify there are no blotches or goofy stuff.
I recommend you find some of those small 8-1/2x11 cardboard boxes (most office supply stores have them, also copier places like Kinkos). Have your manuscript in the box, nice and flat, easy to read.
Of course it must be on plain paper, one sided, New Courier or Times New Roman, 12pt, double spaced, full 1" margins.
Other things to include AFTER you're asked for the full manuscript: A brief bio sheet that lists your publishing history, and a synopsis of the novel.
And don't forget to include a big envelope with postage attached for them to send it back to you if they say "No thanks".
Good luck!
The next thing that will be requested is always the full novel. If the agent likes the 3 chapters that's the next step.
If you're asked for those 3 first chapters, I'd suggest you bend the rules a bit and also add maybe 2 more chapters that you consider significant. As long as you submit what's requested, you can do a bit more too as long as you don't go overboard.
So anyway, always have that full novel ready for submission.
Make sure you have a clean, neat copy to send. Go thru each page to verify there are no blotches or goofy stuff.
I recommend you find some of those small 8-1/2x11 cardboard boxes (most office supply stores have them, also copier places like Kinkos). Have your manuscript in the box, nice and flat, easy to read.
Of course it must be on plain paper, one sided, New Courier or Times New Roman, 12pt, double spaced, full 1" margins.
Other things to include AFTER you're asked for the full manuscript: A brief bio sheet that lists your publishing history, and a synopsis of the novel.
And don't forget to include a big envelope with postage attached for them to send it back to you if they say "No thanks".
Good luck!
katdad
Re: For an agent
>>...written over 100 queries to both agents and editors. I have never had a single person ask for an outline for a novel...<<
Neither have I. I've never had a single source ask for a detailed outline or summary, ever. All they wanted in that vein was a synopsis, mostly 3-5 pages max.
They are primarily interested in your writing. If they ask for 3 chapters, that's why. Beyond that, they will ask for the novel itself.
My agent never asked for anything longer than a 3 page synopsis.
So in my opinion, a long outline is not needed.
>>...written over 100 queries to both agents and editors. I have never had a single person ask for an outline for a novel...<<
Neither have I. I've never had a single source ask for a detailed outline or summary, ever. All they wanted in that vein was a synopsis, mostly 3-5 pages max.
They are primarily interested in your writing. If they ask for 3 chapters, that's why. Beyond that, they will ask for the novel itself.
My agent never asked for anything longer than a 3 page synopsis.
So in my opinion, a long outline is not needed.
cwfgal
Re: For an agent
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Thing is, she said go double-spaced, which I have, and limit it to 4 pages. James Ritchie above in this thread says it's usually single-spaced. Anyone have the definitive answer? Obviously it makes a huge difference and I'm struggling to keep this synopsis to four pages.<hr></blockquote>
A synopsis is usually single-spaced and ranges from 3 - 5 pages. That said, I sold my first book using a double-spaced synopsis. If you want to read the query and synopsis for my first sale I have them posted on my web site: www.bethamos.com/query.htm
They both have flaws but the book sold despite them, the lesson there being that the most important thing is a good story and good writing.
Beth
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Thing is, she said go double-spaced, which I have, and limit it to 4 pages. James Ritchie above in this thread says it's usually single-spaced. Anyone have the definitive answer? Obviously it makes a huge difference and I'm struggling to keep this synopsis to four pages.<hr></blockquote>
A synopsis is usually single-spaced and ranges from 3 - 5 pages. That said, I sold my first book using a double-spaced synopsis. If you want to read the query and synopsis for my first sale I have them posted on my web site: www.bethamos.com/query.htm
They both have flaws but the book sold despite them, the lesson there being that the most important thing is a good story and good writing.
Beth
Jamesaritchie
Re: For an agent
It isn't that a long, detailed outline is NEEDED, it's that it's an incredibly helpful tool, and one writers shouldn't ignore.
Just because something isn't asked for doesn't mean it isn't wanted or can't be used. And you'll just have to trust me in this, many guidelines do ask for outlines, they just don't do so clearly enough because they thnk writers understand what they're talking about.
And I can tell you that as an editor or an agent, a detailed outline can make the difference beween a full manuscript request or a quick rejection.
There's nothing new about outlines for novels. The outline is a standard, very much used tool for selling a novel.
And, yes, if you send a query letter and a brief synopsis, the agent will ask for the complete manuscript is they want more. This isn't the point. The point is good agents don't ask for the complete manuscript very often from new writers based on a query letter and a synopsis. The better the agent, the more often he or she will say no to new writers who send only a query letter and a brief synopsis.
No agent or editor alive can tell how well anyone writes fiction based on a query letter and/or synopsis, and it's just smart to error on the side of caution. Actually seeing the writing, along with an outline that shows the novel is going to be as good all the way through as the first three chapters are, does make a huge difference in many cases.
And if you don;t think an outline is a needed tool, let me ask you this. How many new writers do you know who are getting absolutely nowhere using a query letter and synopsis? I've known hundreds.
The outline, along with a synopsis and three chapters, is a standard tool in publishing, andf has been for a lot of years.
It's still a tool a great many professional writers use regularly.
Maybe it isn;t always needed, it certainly isn't always needed, but "no one has asked for one" doesn't really mean anything, and if a writer finds himself getting nowhere with a query letter/synopsis, it certainly isn't going to hurt to try an outline.
It is a good, and a very common, tool for selling novels, even if no one ever asks you for one.
It isn't that a long, detailed outline is NEEDED, it's that it's an incredibly helpful tool, and one writers shouldn't ignore.
Just because something isn't asked for doesn't mean it isn't wanted or can't be used. And you'll just have to trust me in this, many guidelines do ask for outlines, they just don't do so clearly enough because they thnk writers understand what they're talking about.
And I can tell you that as an editor or an agent, a detailed outline can make the difference beween a full manuscript request or a quick rejection.
There's nothing new about outlines for novels. The outline is a standard, very much used tool for selling a novel.
And, yes, if you send a query letter and a brief synopsis, the agent will ask for the complete manuscript is they want more. This isn't the point. The point is good agents don't ask for the complete manuscript very often from new writers based on a query letter and a synopsis. The better the agent, the more often he or she will say no to new writers who send only a query letter and a brief synopsis.
No agent or editor alive can tell how well anyone writes fiction based on a query letter and/or synopsis, and it's just smart to error on the side of caution. Actually seeing the writing, along with an outline that shows the novel is going to be as good all the way through as the first three chapters are, does make a huge difference in many cases.
And if you don;t think an outline is a needed tool, let me ask you this. How many new writers do you know who are getting absolutely nowhere using a query letter and synopsis? I've known hundreds.
The outline, along with a synopsis and three chapters, is a standard tool in publishing, andf has been for a lot of years.
It's still a tool a great many professional writers use regularly.
Maybe it isn;t always needed, it certainly isn't always needed, but "no one has asked for one" doesn't really mean anything, and if a writer finds himself getting nowhere with a query letter/synopsis, it certainly isn't going to hurt to try an outline.
It is a good, and a very common, tool for selling novels, even if no one ever asks you for one.
SimonSays
Re: For an agent
I'm a screenwriter working on my first novel - and I look at outlines the same way I look at screenplay treatments.
A treatment (or outline) no matter how good, will never be as good as the actual script or novel. If an agent or publisher specifically requests an outline, that's one thing. But I wouldn't send one unless it was requested. And as I research agents, I haven't come across one who requested an outline as part of the initial submission pacakge.
The goal of the query, synopisis and/or parital (depending on submission guidelines) is to get them to want to read the whole ms. Why give them one more opportunity to reject you before you get to that point?
I'm a screenwriter working on my first novel - and I look at outlines the same way I look at screenplay treatments.
A treatment (or outline) no matter how good, will never be as good as the actual script or novel. If an agent or publisher specifically requests an outline, that's one thing. But I wouldn't send one unless it was requested. And as I research agents, I haven't come across one who requested an outline as part of the initial submission pacakge.
The goal of the query, synopisis and/or parital (depending on submission guidelines) is to get them to want to read the whole ms. Why give them one more opportunity to reject you before you get to that point?
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