i want book ratings....

i write books i would like to read. they ain't pretty, they ain't takin' no stinkin' high moral ground. they're bloody, violent and full of graphic sex. evil can be justified and good grounded in unsanity. in other words, i try to write junk with balls to it. not everyone's cup o' tea, that's just me.

but i'll be damned if it's a booger finding a book that vaguely promises one scintillating thing and wusses out in the end. 'teeming with sexuality' means the sex is buried in ambiguous prose. not always, but you kinda would like to know before plunking down your hard earned cash expecting one thing and getting shafted.

that's why i want rating labels on books. oh, gawd, do i want them on mine. i can avoid not only a lot of hate mail from people who thought they might be given a lot of tolkein-esque poetry and got necrophilia instead, and people who *want* the worst of the worst can go right to it without fail and not rely on lies in blurbs and back cover synopses.

we have ratings for movies. we have ratings for t.v. shows. we have ratings for cd's and video games. why don't we have them for books? it doesn't make sense.

The advantage of no ratings is that a lot of stuff sneaks onto the shelves that moralising chains stores wouldn't carry if they knew what it was.

i write books i would like to read. they ain't pretty, they ain't takin' no stinkin' high moral ground. they're bloody, violent and full of graphic sex. evil can be justified and good grounded in unsanity. in other words, i try to write junk with balls to it. not everyone's cup o' tea, that's just me.

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Have you watched the FCC rulings lately? Are you aware that the difference between censorship and non censorship is whether you are punished before you speak or after you speak?

but i'll be damned if it's a booger finding a book that vaguely promises one scintillating thing and wusses out in the end. 'teeming with sexuality' means the sex is buried in ambiguous prose. not always, but you kinda would like to know before plunking down your hard earned cash expecting one thing and getting shafted.

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That isn't going to happen. The moral majority may or may not be the majority, but if not they are the biggest, baddest minority around. You won't find books off the shelves in major stores that actually produce what you want.

that's why i want rating labels on books. oh, gawd, do i want them on mine. i can avoid not only a lot of hate mail from people who thought they might be given a lot of tolkein-esque poetry and got necrophilia instead, and people who *want* the worst of the worst can go right to it without fail and not rely on lies in blurbs and back cover synopses.

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What that amounts to is that fewer and fewer places will carry anything with more than an "R" rating and the scramble will be to "get under the ratings wire" just as it is in the movie industry.

we have ratings for movies. we have ratings for t.v. shows. we have ratings for cd's and video games. why don't we have them for books? it doesn't make sense.

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And the stuff you want to write would be found alongside Johnny Wad Holmes in sleazy book stores on the seedy side of town. Is that really what you want?

Ratings on CD's and movies were placed there ostensibly to protect children from watching or listening to content people feel they should not be exposed to. Seen as children are not the primary consumers of most novels we have managed to escape it.

Don't worry about ratings, find authors you like and buy them.

That is why many, including myself, write under different pen names. So you can judge what you will get by the name on the cover.

you make some good points there.

Check out Elora's Cave e-book publisher for teaming with sex books that deliver what they say they do and are well written, not just porn.

Shawn

oh, and i don't worry about writing for the masses, either. it's not sleazy, garbage, but it a girl gives a guy what he's wanting, i don't shy away from that. sensational and scandalous, yes, but the content isn't far from what i've seen in a lot of books. it's just not watered down. i've read some truly bizarre things. if they can get published, i don't see why i can't, either.

as it stands, i have no intentions of using a pen name. if madonna can re-invent herself a million times, i reckon people can accept an author can, gasp, write books in different genres. doesn't mean they have to buy them. if i do sci-fi and fantasy and a reader finds a book in the romance section, hey, guess what, it's your dumb-ass fault for buying it if you thinks it's anything less than what it obviously is. just my take on that. now, if i go from hard core porn to the kiddie section, yeah, i can see it then, but how likely is that? lol.

thanks for that, shawn. just to clarify, i don't write porn. some sections may be pornographic, true, but that's not what the writing is about. the story just isn't endless filler to link sex scenes, sex is a part of the story. so is violence. so are a lot of other things. i just don't shy away from them. if nothing else, i want the novels i write to be understood to be adult. my characters cuss and act-up... just like real people. 'sanitized for your protection' isn't a label i ever plan on using. i'm willing to give up selling at wal*mart and take a smaller paycheck as long as i can basically write what i want and not pander to the people who wouldn't and shouldn't buy the books anyway.

And who decides what rating your book gets? And where it's placed in a store because of the rating?

You can already write what you want, and the target audience, if there is one, will find you just fine. As it is, if you write porn, people know about it cery quickly, if you write for families, people know about it very quickly, and if you write somewhere in between, people know about that, too.

I think not having ratings makes perfect sense. I'd fight tooth and bank account to keep ratings off my novels.

And if the moral majority isn't really a majority, it's awfully close to it. Just ask John Kerry why he lost the election.

Freedom of the press means no rating system. Let's keep it that way.

James, there's some debate over that; people are saying that it wasn't the moral majority that made Kerry lose.

But, anyway.

If a reader doesn't care for a book, they can always return it. Though there was one time I had to donate my copy instead since my toddler bent the cover.

Hey, James and I agree on something.

Should I faint now or wait until after I have eaten dinner?


Preyer,

You may always write the same way. In that case there may be no need to use a pen name.

I, on the other hand write a wide variety of things -- Some even you might object to -- While I write other things no one would object to their youngest grand child reading.

If I were to write them both under the same name the reader could be in for a very unpleasant shock.

I am intrigued though... There are ratings for movies, video games, websites, TV shows, etc. and adult magazines and porn are wrapped... but for books, it seems like anything goes. A young boy can go to the library or a bookstore and read anything he wants.

Isn't that interesting?

I'd have to say that Preyer's piqued my interest in his stories. I'm the same way as far as writing goes, anyway.

I hate the moral majority (if it is a majority); don't think that has anything to do with Kerry losing since he wasn't all that much of an appealing candidate (lets face it, people, he wasn't). In any case, censorship of video games, books, the Internet, TV shows, movies, etc. is a huge hot-button issue for me. Do I think books should have a rating system? Not really sure. From what is posted on these boards, if marketable books are 60,000 words to 120,000 words, that's probably around 400 to 600 (give or take) pages. How many kids are going to want to read a book that long anyway (with the exception of Harry Potter, of course)? Who knows?

I do think that people should know what they are getting when they are buying something. Not sure how effective a rating system is, though. For example, I never could understand why some movies, such as "The Matrix" or the movie adaptation of Stephen King's "FireStarter" were given an R-rating, when not only was any sexual references or nudity absent from the films, but they didn't even use the f-word once. Sometimes things don't always get the appropriate rating.

Plus with books, you can usually tell from the cover or from the author if he or she is well-known. For example, if you pick up a Stephen King book, you should know that it will probably have a lot of gore in it, a lot of swearing, and may contain some sex; therefore you wouldn't have much right to complain. Horror books will have different kinds of covers than a sappy romance novel, so that along would give you the idea of what you're getting into. There's also the blurb on the back of the book or inside cover to give you some clues as to what the story will be about. Also, its pretty easy to get more information about potential books you are interested in buying; just read some of the reviews on Amazon.com and they should clue you in. Yeah, I know there are a lot of stupid and pointless reviews that just say "This book wsa really great and you should definitely read it." or "This book was really stupid and boring" which aren't helpful at all, but other reviews will contain more information about what's in the book, what is good about the book, and what might not be so good about the book. Just requires a little bit of effort on the reader's part.

But anyway, yeah, I'm with you Preyer. No way would I ever water my stuff down either. If it's too much for people, then that's fine; there are others who might get enjoyment out of my stories, so that's what matters.

For some of us the issue isn't "watering down": It is writing what is appropriateness to the story.

One novel I write might center around a bunch of little old ladies in a sewing circle.

One might be about a couple of hookers who decide to rob a bank.

Obviously I would not write them the same.

I don't want to be stuck in the position of spending my life always writing the same thing. One reason I have never even considered writing a fantasy series. I want to explore new worlds, not the same one over and over again.

In my humble opinion, ratings would serve no purpose other than to label, thus giving those who feel justified in forcing their narrow view of life on everyone who would dare disagree an additional avenue to censorship.

My freedoms are already impeded enough as it is. I don't want freedom of speech rated, just as I never wanted anyone but me to decide what is in my best interests. Laws should only be passed that allow the greatest freedom of choice for the largest number of people. Yet, some in this country believe it their religious and moral duty to make sure I and everyone else tow their narrow lines. And these are the very same people who will clamor to rate my or any other author's work, possibly call a story or book obscene, then censor it, ban it using the worst possible rating because within the pages they found too much sex to suit, too much violence, or worse yet, a whole new view of God that challenges their tunnel visioned concept of the Cosmos, threatens their sacrosanct seats in those high moral towers where they look down on the "heathens", convinced God, maker of heaven and earth, needs their help to judge us all. No thanks.

Again, this is only my humble opinion. YMMV

Mari

Well, I hope you don't hate all teh moral majority, because thirty-five members of my family would be considered part of it, including me.

And unless you disbelieve every poll and every political expert around, the moral majority had everything to do with defeating Kerry.

I don't like censorship anymore than you do, but I do intend to be the sole boss of what my kids watch/read/see in public.
I still think anyone should be able to write anything they wish, find a publisher and sell it.

But watering a book down has nothing at all to do with ratings, or with including or not including graphic sex, violence and language. That's silliness in the extreme. You write the story you want to write, and the content of the book should match the story. It isn't difficult to tell what a book is like, and if anything, ratings would only make it much tougher to tell. Far more people use ratings to reject, ratherthan to buy, and book with ratings up around X would be very difficult to even find.

But it's flat no one's business to put a rating system on my books. There are already plenty of other ways to tell exactly how a book is written. Is there really a writer.

But it also isn't watering down a book to NOT include graphic sex, overt violence, or hard language. Just because someone doesn't like writing or reading these things has nothing to do with "watering down," anymore than adding them has to do with watering up. For me it just tends to make for sleazy stories that I don't want to read, but I don't need a rating system to know which writers I want to read and which I don't.

I don't include graphic sex, graphic language, or really graphic violence in my stories, but this in no way means I water anything down. I justt tell the parts of the story that have meaning for me, and for my audience.

You write the kind of story you want to read. It's this simple. Stores may or may not carry them, and no law should say a store has to carry a book, or that a store can't carry a book. That's purely up to the owner of the store, and to the customers. Freedom works both ways. You have to have the right to say "no" or "yes." And the right not to have someone else put a rating system on your writing.

As for 600 page books, kids have always read many of them. And some a good deal longer than 600 pages.

Just because someone doesn't like writing or reading these things has nothing to do with "watering down," anymore than adding them has to do with watering up.

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Too funny.

great comments all.

you know, if someone wants to write gay porn, i've no problem with that. if children's stories, great. the great american novel? feel free. i think, generally, that most writers write what they're comfortable writing. i personally have not much interest in writing the same thing over and over, like it was mentioned in the same genre. i might argue against pen names just to spur conversation, but truth be told i could care less what names people use. if it helps your careers, hey, use 'em, no doubt. what's 'sleazy' is personal for most people, being so subjective. the moral people who shouldn't read my stuff, who feels the need to shut down strip clubs and adult novelty stores, and vote against gay marriage have their reasons for doing so, but at the same time i don't want those people limiting what i write. even if i 'watered down' what i wrote and made the 'bad' scenes very palatible (sp) i highly doubt the stories themselves would appeal to them.

i would change what i needed to to get published. i am, after all, a self-admitted whore. i draw the line at writing propaganda for neo-nazis, the KKK, mambla, and timothy mcveigh's fanclub. so there are limits.

at the same time, i wonder how much of the moral majority, which i believe there is such a thing, buys stephen king with all the sex and violence (both of which can be graphic), porn, prostitutes, etc., the other six daze of the week. my point is, a rating would only get my book into the hands of those people who really want that kind of thing, however many they may be, but it also probably wouldn't *hurt* sales were there no rating. a moral person wouldn't want to be seen toting around a copy of something with an 'inappropriate' rating at the PTA meeting for all prying eyes to see. and no one said the rating has to be in huge letters on the front cover: it could be inside. i'm not saying it should be mandatory, it could be voluntary.

limiting freedom of speech? it doesn't one iota. if you write westerns with ne'er a disparaging word uttered, a rating isn't going to hurt one bit. and maybe even a 'rating' isn't what i'm wanting as much as a fair warning that, hey, this book of mine may not be for you. piers anthony i ain't. at the same time, those clues can be misleading if there are any at all. as it is, you truly don't know what you're buying unless it's from an author you already know and trust.

and there's no reason why books can't be edited to fit a store's policy. maybe not mine, but you know what i'm driving at, eh?

i'm not saying anyone's book that doesn't contain graphic scenes and sensational storylines are 'watered down,' because if that was the intention of the writer, what argument against that can there be? i'm not like that and i don't want to make a career of being, ah, 'acceptable to all' (if that's possible) any more than i want every book to be more 'sleazy' than the last. i just don't want there to be any illusions between me and the reader. i don't want altar boys and boy scouts sending me carefully worded hate mail, i don't want committees of bored housewives calling for my being banned from public libraries, and i sure as hell don't want any moral majority telling me how i should write a story else they'll excommunicate me from their corporate religion.

just to avoid any misunderstandings, let *me* put a warning on the inside of the book, mr. editor, sir. and some pizza hut coupons in the back.

ironically, probably two of the most messed-up things i've ever read ever was a 'sex' scene from a king book and a sex scene from a romance where a woman makes love with the devil.

BTW By your definition Ellora's cave doesn't *sell* porn either. There are plenty of books sold under a general erotica banner/imprint because they contain sex as required by the plot, not because they are sleaze. Buying from a publisher like Ellora is equivalent to having a warning as all their very well written books have some level of adult content.

Most books are sold by word of mouth. People whose judgment you trust recommend a book by a certain author. Usually once a person finds an author they like they will read the author, not the book by the author.

Note: While I'm not part of the moral majority most of the people I love are: most of my family, most of my friends. I love them just as much as I would if they were real people and they love me just as much as they would if I weren't going to Hell. In truth I suspect God is sick of hearing people asking him to save my eternal soul.

Most of them read books from trusted sources, publishers, authors; and books recommended by trusted sources, such as reviews in their church news letters, which by the way often rate books.

The chances of one of them even looking at a book written by preyer is less than one of them winning to lottery.

Great thread going here.

After reading all the posts I can't help but be reminded of what J. MacDonald has said in the past: Is it a good story?
Fill your book with all the sex, vulgar language, and gratuitous violence you want but, in the end, have you written a good story that someone will actually want to read? Or, more correctly, that a publisher will want to publish.

Much has been said about Stephen King in previous posts and his occasional use of spicy language, violence, and sex in his books. Call King what you will (and I'm not saying anyone has mentioned anything derogatory) but, simply put, the man knows how to write. More importantly, he knows how to tell a good story and therein lies the crux of the matter.

As a member of the moral majority, one might consider a King novel and a person such as myself mutually exclusive but that isn't the case and, I suspect, is true for millions of people. The more questionable aspects of a King novel (or any other good author - pick your poison) are interwoven into the fabric of the story in such a way that they are not merely utilized for shock value. To leave them out would remove the logical flow of story. But writing an insanely violent and sexual book just for the sake of shocking readers (Brett Easton Ellis?) overlooks the primary goal of writing a book and that is, again, telling a story in such a way that someone else will want to read it. At least that's my humble opinion and anyone can feel free to disagree with me.

Preyer, I'm not saying there is no market for your kind of book because there obviously is. If I recall correctly, Ellis sold more than a few copies of American Psycho and birthed a movie from it as well. I tried to read it but, to me, the writing was atrocious; definitely a bad read and the violence and sexual perversity only compounded the issue. I would certainly never purchase another of his books, based on that one experience alone.

Wow, I've rambled a bit here. I'm not sermonizing or preaching - just telling you how I approach both writing a book and reading one for enjoyment.
In summary: include anything you want in your writing, just do so in a manner where other people will want to read it.

More importantly, he knows how to tell a good story and therein lies the crux of the matter.

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That sums up my position.

Here's something to think about--

I recently moved from a small town with around 6,000 people most of whom, if you asked, would probably count themselves in line with the Moral Majority, if not card carrying members, so to speak.

The one bookstore in town would not carry a King book to save their business.

The library was a bit more liberal and carried King, but you couldn't find Anais Nin.

Go to the garage sales and you could get anything. After all, Amazon, et al, delivers in plain brown wrappers, cardboard generally, but still plain brown.


Mari

Gotta love the plain brown majority.