"One for the drawer"

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Gala

"One for the drawer"

What is your criteria for deciding you have reached the end of working on a novel? The decision means you will not revise it further towards publication.

I'm particularly curious in regards to novels that are complete, as opposed to having an idea you fleshed out a bit and decided it did not go anywhere.

And have you gone back to a novel you filed away, a year or two later and then spiffed it up for publication?

I've always been curious about this and it is difficult to learn why in author interviews. They tend to be vague in answering, as is their right.

I don't wonder there may be a few hundred novels languishing in the dust, perhaps publishable but for personal reasons the author moved on.

Thanks.
 

Jamesaritchie

Re: "One for the drawer"

What is your criteria for deciding you have reached the end of working on a novel? The decision means you will not revise it further towards publication.

I write the first draft, let it set for a time, usually four weeks, then go through and do the second draft. At this point it's ready for submission.

There's not much point in revising a novel endlessly. As often as not, a revision doesn't make things better, it just makes things different.

If there's a problem, my agent or editor will let me know, and then I'll fix it.

I'm a firm believer in Heinlein's Rules.

HEINLEIN'S RULES FOR WRITING

1. You must write.
2. You must finish what you write.
3. You must refrain from rewriting, except to editorial order.
4. You must put the work on the market.
5. You must keep the work on the market until it is sold.

The best explanation of these rules I've ever read can be found on Robert J. Sawyer's website. I think every writer should go to his site and read the explanation of the rules.
www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm
 

Gala

deciding not to revise.

Thanks James.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I write the first draft, let it set for a time, usually four weeks, then go through and do the second draft. At this point it's ready for submission.<hr></blockquote>
So you're saying you've never decided not to revise a novel, and you have published every novel you've written?
 

Writing Again

Re: "One for the drawer"

What is your criteria for deciding you have reached the end of working on a novel? The decision means you will not revise it further towards publication.

When I've decided it is the best I can write at the time and that each page says what I intended that page to say.

And have you gone back to a novel you filed away, a year or two later and then spiffed it up for publication?

Yes, but not usually. Partly depends on why I filed it away. The last novel I filed away that I need to go back to was written while my wife was very sick. Because I wrote the story sporadically, sometimes several months between writings, it developed some severe inconsistencies. I need to go back and literally rewrite the novel from scratch.

Maybe I'll deal with it, maybe I won't. I don't know.
 

Jamesaritchie

Re: deciding not to revise.

So you're saying you've never decided not to revise a novel, and you have published every novel you've written?

I've had one submitted novel go unpublished. Revising wouldn't have helped. It was bad start to finish, and I couldn't think of a way in the world to make it any better. Neither could my agent or my editor. Just a bad idea that I went with because the idea intrigued me.

And it isn't that I don't revise, it's that I've found two drafts are enough. I don't write all my novels in longhand, but I do start them in longhand, and at least get partway through before switching to the computer.

I really don;t mean this teh way it's going to sound, but I try not to write things that will need much in the way of revision. I don't write stories with the intention of totally rewriting and revising them later.

I know what a publishable story is, what story structure a publishable story requires. I know what good characters are, and I've always had a knack for writing good dialogue.

I had the first draft of one novel published.

This means I get something of an extra draft as I type the longhand into the computer. Then I let it sit. Then I fix anyting I see that's wrong. Most often, it's clunky sentences and weak dialogue. But whatever it is, I fix. Then I submit it.

There's really nothing at all unusual about this. I know writers who do a dozen drafts before submitting something, but their novels seem no better to me, and I know far more writers who get the job done with two drafts.
 

Crusader

hmm...

If i'm reading Jamesaritchie's post correctly, then i daresay the method described therein is absolutely impossible for me.

Indeed, i would experience nothing less than a hysterical shrieking clawing fit, if ever it was possible for a first draft of my writing to be seen.

However, i should qualify my statement--i don't actually do "first drafts" in the first place.

Instead, i revise line-by-line while writing. By the time i complete a page, every paragraph has been revised several times: once in the first line; again for the second line; once more to make the first and second agree; once for the third line; once more to make all three agree; etc...

... and upon the end of the page, i turn right around and revise everything all over again to make it all agree.

Thus, it usually takes quite a bit of effort before i'm comfortable with putting the page down as "finished". Of course, after a day or so, i pick it up and see all the remaining errors, whereupon the cycle begins anew. [sigh]

* * *

So, to address the question of the thread: i don't feel a novel is ever really "finished." It's more like the writer simply reaches a sort of... satiation, as far as editing it.

Confusing? Well, think of how certain people's appetites can be eased with a dry cracker and water--while other people still feel vaguely hungry after an entire five-course meal.

In like fashion, the author writes and revises until they just feel "full". It's different for everyone, and not meaningfully comparable between authors.
 

Jamesaritchie

Re: hmm...

Instead, i revise line-by-line while writing. By the time i complete a page, every paragraph has been revised several times: once in the first line; again for the second line; once more to make the first and second agree; once for the third line; once more to make all three agree; etc...

... and upon the end of the page, i turn right around and revise everything all over again to make it all agree.

Dean Koontz claims to rewrite each page up to thirty times before moving to the next page, and it seems to work well for him.

I only seldom rewrite anyting as I go. If I do put down a sentence that just stinks, I will usually rewrite it before moving on, but I don't do this often.

For one thing, I have no idea what page twenty is supposed to say until I finish page last, so rewriting it too much doesn't seem to work for me.

If anything, with first drafts I rewrite in my head before I put a sentence down on paper. That's one of the advanatges to longhand, at least for me. It's slow.

Anyway, what's the old quotation? "Stories are never finished, they're abandoned. Learn to abandon yours." Wish I could remember who said it.

The whole deal of when a novel is "finished" really doesn't mean much. It not only varies from writer to writer, but from novel to novel. Even from page to page.
 

Crusader

Re: hmm...

@Jamesaritchie:

i was just reading that quote on a website. Uncanny coincidence. And i do agree, to a point.

As far as Mr. Koontz... he and i could probably find mutual amusement in comparing the number of rewrites we do per page. Thanks for using him as an example, i feel a bit less of a freak now.

However, i'm still mindboggled that you can go with a first or second draft. i mean, my command of prose is likely sufficient to do that, but it just would feel so completely wrong--i dread facing all the sentences i could have made closer to perfection, each one glaring resentfully from the sheet of paper or monitor...

Of course, as you say, there is a rewrite process going on in your mind. But i do the same thing in my mind, so even if i try to relate from that angle, i still get 404 errors.


For one thing, I have no idea what page twenty is supposed to say until I finish page last, so rewriting it too much doesn't seem to work for me.

Eh. We operate at polar ends of the spectrum; i generally can't write page 20 unless i have pages 1-19 sharply defined.

One exception is when i brainstorm scenes from out of the blue... i might have pages 35-50 drop into my lap, and of course they'll need to be connected to pages 1-19. And that prompts me to write 20-34 in a different way than if i'd never imagined 35-50.

Yet, that process still leads to revising pages 1-50 for overall continuity anyway.

Taking everything into account, you've led me to wonder for the hundredth time if i'm actually designed to be an editor, not a writer...
 

Writing Again

Re: hmm...

The whole deal of when a novel is "finished" really doesn't mean much. It not only varies from writer to writer, but from novel to novel. Even from page to page.

And that's the truth.
 

maestrowork

Re: hmm...

Never say never. And do works for you. Stephen King advises writers to do at least three drafts before sending out to betas. I can't imagine how many revisions between that and publications. I trust myself, but I also trust my editors -- I've been known to make mistakes or decisions. I do try to write a good enough first draft so that the subsequent revisions would be as painless as possible.
 

Gala

Your unpublished novels

Thanks for the replies.

I'm still curious about novels you decided not to publish.

Authors seem shy about saying they do.
 

katdad

Re: "One for the drawer"

Since I've been focusing on my series of private detective novels, I have temporarily shelved a couple of other novels. There's a Stephen King-ish supernatural thriller, and a police procedural murder mystery.

Thank heaven for computers and backups, so I can save stuff for later.

As for final revisions of "complete" novels, yes I often go back and tweak things a bit. Normally this is if I find a mechanical error ("there's always one more tpyo to be found").

But also I am amenable to changing an earlier novel in my series so that newer story lines are consistent. This is however rare.
 

cwfgal

Re: "One for the drawer"

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And have you gone back to a novel you filed away, a year or two later and then spiffed it up for publication?<hr></blockquote>

I have one novel that I wrote, submitted, and then filed away after 50 rejections (hey I'm tenacious if nothing else). It was my first completed novel and I have not taken it back out to look at it. I sold the next three novels I wrote, two of those sales based on a synopsis only.

I have another novel that I finished a couple of years ago but never submitted. I'm not sure why--I think I just sensed that it needed something more but wasn't sure what. And by the time I was finished writing it, I had other projects I was excited about and wanted to start on. I recently resurrected that ms, gave it a read, and gained new enthusiasm for it. But rather than submitting it anywhere, I am giving it away. I am rewriting it a chapter at a time and sending it out in serial form in my newsletter.

Another novel, which I had a blast writing and couldn't bear to toss aside, I self-published after it was turned down by a handful of places. It is the first in an intended series and I still have hope of eventually finding a more traditional publishing home for it.

I have lots of ideas for future novels and I'm less inclined to revisit old projects than I am to start new ones. If I'm going to invest a lot of time and money in a vacation, I want to go somewhere I've never been before rather than revisit a place I've already been. I apply the same philosophy for the most part when it comes to investing my time in the writing of a novel.

Beth
 

SRHowen

Re: "One for the drawer"

How do I know I am done?

When I am ready to toss the thing of the roof, after dousing it with gasoline, and starting it on fire to be run over by a MAC truck and swept into the gutter.

I did two drafts of the novel that's being shopped right now. So I guess the real answer is---I am done when my agent says so.

I have a couple of novels sitting untouched, one from years ago. After a conversation with James D. I dug one out. And editor had, may years ago, said if I were interested in slitting it up they would take another look. (in the arrogance of new writer) I said, forget it.

So I dug it out. Overall the story is good. The writing sucks big time. Can i fix it? I have been tinkering with it, and hope to get my agents opinion soon.

Another one--I may as well burn it--no amount of tinkering will ever fix it.

Shawn
 

Jamesaritchie

Re: hmm...

Never say never. And do works for you. Stephen King advises writers to do at least three drafts before sending out to betas.

I thought King just did two drafts? In "On Writing" he says he does a draft with the door closed, lets this draft rest, then goes over a hardcopy with pencil in hand to make corrections, types that draft, and gives it to his beta readers.

The third draft he does is any correction and revision caused by whatever his beta readers say that he agrees with.
 

maestrowork

Re: hmm...

No, King said he had more than 2 drafts. I believe he said he would not let anyone read it (including his wife) until the third draft. He's also very big on rewrites and revisions, but advises to put a stop to incessant revising.
 

Jamesaritchie

Re: hmm...

No, King said he had more than 2 drafts. I believe he said he would not let anyone read it (including his wife) until the third draft. He's also very big on rewrites and revisions, but advises to put a stop to incessant revising.

Maybe we're reading it differently. I just went through "On Writing" again, and he does say he does one draft with the door closed, then pencils in corrections, then gives that draft to his beta readers.

He talks about it from pages 208-220. He writes his first draft, lets it rest for six weeks, goes through with a pencil, then says, ""When I've finished reading and marking all my anal-retentive little revisions, it's time to open the door and show what I've written to four or five close friends who have indicated a willingness to look."
 

maestrowork

Re: hmm...

Actually we were both incorrect. King said that he does 2 drafts (1st with the door shut, the second with the door open) and a polish, which to him has become close to a 3rd draft. He also said to do what feels natural to you as a writer -- everyone is different.
 

mr mistook

Re: hmm...

I'm still on such a learning curve. I've learned so much here that I can't help but go back to old chapters and give them an overhaul. In the end this first novel of mine may amount to nothing more than the hacked-up thing upon which I cut my teeth.
 

novelator

Re: hmm...

My first novel is shelved--permanently. 120,000 words of a great story with atrocious writing. My temporary writer's permit. I eventually stole the best line from that book, then wondered if I hadn't written all those words to get that one line for this other novel where it fit perfectly.

I have another novel, the first one I ever shopped, that I over-edited to the point that it's sterile, a generic read. Again, good story, but I removed my voice completely in my drive for perfection, or what I thought perfection might be. Nine months, innumerable passes, and it collects dust. I will probably rewrite it in a year or two, if I ever get caught up with my other ones.

I have one at an agent now that I made two passes on, determined not to whack my work before I let the beta readers have at it. Made a third pass, purely for typos. Then out it went. Since I have a waiting list to read it among friends of my betas, looked like the best thing to do was leave it alone. Seems to have that word-of-mouth thing going for it. I'm going to do the same with the rest of my work, just make a few passes, and out. I'm writing well enough I feel safe in doing that, safer still now that I recognize my voice.

Mari
 

Crusader

Re: hmm...

I have another novel, the first one I ever shopped, that I over-edited to the point that it's sterile, a generic read. Again, good story, but I removed my voice completely in my drive for perfection, or what I thought perfection might be.

The possibility of over-editing something to where it becomes sterile or generic, has always troubled me. So i feel a pang of sympathy towards the above misfortune.

Yet at the same time, i don't know how to write without seeking perfection, so any draft with less than "a lot" of edits always looks horribly stunted to me. And if someone actually wanted to buy my work before i was happy with it, i can see the seed of a serious dilemma there.

Thus i wonder, which is worse: to shelve an over-edited story, or to sell an unfulfilling one?

From where i'm sitting, at least a shelved story is a private shame. Whereas a bad performance that sold anyway, is a public spectacle.
 

maestrowork

Re: hmm...

Why don't you edit it back to reflect your voice/style?
 

Gala

novels in the drawer

Maestro--any novels in the drawer?

James--are you saying you have published every single novel you ever wrote, with the exception of one that was rejected?

Thanks everyone for the replies.
 

HConn

Re: novels in the drawer

I only have one novel completed, with a second on the way.

That first novel made the rounds to the 12 publishers I wanted to target, then I put it in a drawer. Recently, I heard that Wizards of the Coast were looking to publish original fiction (Shawn posted the link here somwhere) so I dragged that manuscript out to have another look.

Then I started rewriting it. Finally, I decided that I didn't want it published, even if WotC was willing. So it went back into the drawer and the pages I'd printed for the submission envelope went into my son's scribble pile.

It's going to stay there, too.
 

maestrowork

Re: novels in the drawer

Gala, I've only completed one novel, which is set to be published. I'm currently working on two (one at about 22K and the other just started). So no drawer or attic novels yet.
 
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