pet peeves in OTHER novels....

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preyer

is there anything you read in other peoples' work that just grates on your nerves for no particular reason?

i mentioned in another thread that i hate when a writer uses actors as a reference to duck out of having to describe a character.

fifteen syllable words that i've never heard of and can't figure out by context clues get me quick.

children protagonists who can hack into any computer system in two keystrokes.

children protagonists.

two paragraphs describing the details of a sniper rifle. 'he aimed the brotworth 342 with a double-over bore of .30 on top of the .240 calibre with the gonkulator sub-assembly,' tells me nothing.

assumptions that i hold phd's in fourteen different fields of math, science, history and philosophy. 'he tended to hold to tao principles....' hey, i'm not a dumb guy, but, come on, i'm no super-genius, either. yeah, at some point i've read a little about tao, maybe ten years ago. refresh my memory a little, will ya?

scenes that give me a hard on but skip the actual sex. thanks, thanks a lot.
 

maestrowork

2 pages of info dump, mid-scene, about the history of the Louvre.

Cardboard characters that bore me to death.

Predictable and cliche plot twists -- like, yeah, the girl has a terminal illness... I can smell that from 150 pages away...

Sudden "and then he dies" plot twists that come from the left field and serve no purpose other than make you cry.

Unbelievable situations -- sure the guy can drop 2000 feet from the sky and not a scratch on his body...

Sex scenes that are not sexy or overly metaphorical... he put what where?

Incessant mumbling with internal dialogue...

Sci-fi with inplausable science.
 

rtilryarms

OOOOHHHHH!

Using air conditioning ductwork to break in to anywhere or anything!!!!!!

They always do that.

It can't happen that way!!!!
 

Adam Mac Brown

Funny. I was just considering this question last night when I got annoyed by a passage in the book I'm reading. Just a small peeve.

I'll give you a made-up example.

The king's brother finally shows himself to be a sniveling traitor and attacks a castle outpost. The defenders fight valiantly but lose. The hero is tasked with the journey to inform the king.

I know the characters well and am thinking: ``Whoa man! The king is just gonna freak when he finds out.''

The next phrase in the book though: ``After three days of consultations, the king had decided he must deal with his brother.'' Or some such.

Obviously, an author doesn't want to recount the incident on the page. The reader already knows it. But I really want to see the king stomp his feet, spill his milk, whatever. At least for a few sentences.

I guess my peeve is that authors too often skip the reaction along with the recounting. I often find myself waiting for a reaction from a key character only to be disappointed. This goes against the gossipy instinct of humans. ``Wait until so-and-so finds out.''

Or is that peeve too idiosyncratic?
 

Terra Aeterna

alright <== >: I know it's probably the way all right is going to be spelled from now on, but it looks hideous and wrong to me. There I am, enjoying the story and

alright​

leaps off the page at me and then I have to slap my brain around a bit so that I'm not in proofreading mode instead of enjoyment mode.
 

Greenwolf103

2 pages of info dump, mid-scene, about the history of the Louvre.

Maestro, you wouldn't happen to be referring to The Hunchback of Notre Dame would you? :rollin (Ugh, 10 pages devoted to a STREET!)

My pet peeves is where the author feels that they're geniuses and have to explain EVERYTHING to the readers. Point in question: City of Bones by Michael Connelly. Maybe we think that acronyms stand for this and that in our minds (and this story IS in first person) but my grief was the author immediately inserting the definition of police lingo right in the next sentence (or so).

Also: Cliched characters (oh, so she comes from an abusive past and now she's all talk until someone makes her crumble. Riight.); predictable plots; the author suddenly grabbing me back to reality to whisper need-to-know information; the author presenting a character with a crisis without giving me a chance to even CARE about him/her (and going through a root canal right at the book's beginning doesn't cut it); the whole "it was all a dream" ending; killing off the first-person-POV character (so the whole story I just read came from a ghost? Why wasn't I told in the beginning??); characters who can, without screwing up, pick a lock/hotwire a car/perform a stunt/hack into a computer, even though they've NEVER done this before; and any book that starts with "it was a dark and stormy night." :b
 

stormie267

Okay, I'll add mine.

When authors dump too many characters into the novel. I feel like I need a notebook just to keep track of each character.

When they churn out two books a year, and you can tell. Same plot, same characters but with different names,....

When their photo takes up the entire back cover. (I know, it's picky, but I'd rather read a few blurbs.)
 

ChunkyC

Overused phrases such as:

He swelled with pride.

The room lit up when she entered.

She gave him a sideways glance.


I'm always having to hack them out of my own stuff in the revision process.
 

vstrauss

>>2 pages of info dump, mid-scene, about the history of the Louvre.

Cardboard characters that bore me to death.<<

Gosh, maestro, what overblown, overhyped, bogusly-researched mega-bestseller could you possibly be referring to?

- Victoria (also peeved by that one)
 

Writing Again

two paragraphs describing the details of a sniper rifle. 'he aimed the brotworth 342 with a double-over bore of .30 on top of the .240 calibre with the gonkulator sub-assembly,' tells me nothing

This is one of those Catch 22's.

I needed a gun to do something in one of my novels. I went to the gun shop, found one that would do what I needed done, and described it just as I saw it in the case. The salesman even let me hold it so I could describe its feel.

My objective was so I would not have it shoot too many shots, or not be able to shoot the right distance, things like that.

One of the revisions the editor wanted was phrased this way: "A lot of readers know their guns. They may not be able to find a lump on their wife's breast, but they know every scratch inside the barrel of their brotworth 342 with a double-over bore of .30 on top of the .240 caliber with the gonkulator sub-assembly: So you had better include it -- And the details had better be right."

So I had to chase down a friend of mine who is a gunologist and have him fill in the details that would satisfy those readers.
 

Jamesaritchie

Generally, it's just poor writing and poor storytelling that bother me the most.

But a lack of accuracy drives me up the wall.

Lack of knowledge about weapons is a good example, and it drives me bonkers. I hate, hate, hate it when a character has a weapon do something that isn't possible. Many readers do know all about weapons, and I'm one of them. If you're going to have a weapon used, get it right.

Don't tell me a character can hit a man in the eye at a mile with a sniper rifle. He can't. No matter how good he is, no rifle on earth is that accurate.

DO bore me with such things as ballistic coefficient (the ratio of a bullet's sectional density to its coefficient of form), mid-range trajectory (How far above line of sight a bullet rises at a point halfway to the target), muzzle velocity, etc. Any good rifle shot will know these things. Show me you know that if a rifle has a twenty power scope, every movement of the user's body, including his heartbeat, is going to also be multiplied by a factor of twenty when he looks through that scope. When you look through a high power scope, the sight picture jumps a little every time your heart beats. Show me the shooter knows something about windage. If a shooter doesn't know how far a given bullet from a given calibre drifts in a wind of a given speed, he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if he were locked inside.

These things don't have to be spelled out in minute detail, but it should be apparent the shooter knows them. If he doesn't, he isn't going to be any good with a rifle, and the only way I'll believe the scene is if he misses his target.

It always best to write a scene with those who do know the facts in mind, rather than writing it with those who don't know the facts in mind.

Inaccuracies of any kind drive me crazy.
 

Fresie

National traditions

Badly researched nationalities and their traditions. The French who do nothing but drink red wine and listen to the accordion; the Russians who drink vodka to a freaky "Na zdorovie!" (Russians never toast like this) and break glasses afterwords; a Japanese geisha who is a karate black belt... you got it. Any book containing these or similar is sent flying across the room.
 

Writing Again

Lack of knowledge about weapons is a good example, and it drives me bonkers. I hate, hate, hate it when a character has a weapon do something that isn't possible. Many readers do know all about weapons, and I'm one of them. If you're going to have a weapon used, get it right.

Don't tell me a character can hit a man in the eye at a mile with a sniper rifle. He can't. No matter how good he is, no rifle on earth is that accurate.

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not Ludlum and I don't write about professional marksmen assassinating foreign diplomats from tall buildings. Or even hunters shooting deer from a bunker in a tree.

I made sure I used a rifle that would do what I needed it to do in the novel. Any rifle that would have produced the result would have worked fine.


DO bore me with such things as ballistic coefficient (the ratio of a bullet's sectional density to its coefficient of form), mid-range trajectory (How far above line of sight a bullet rises at a point halfway to the target), muzzle velocity, etc. Any good rifle shot will know these things. Show me you know that if a rifle has a twenty power scope, every movement of the user's body, including his heartbeat, is going to also be multiplied by a factor of twenty when he looks through that scope. When you look through a high power scope, the sight picture jumps a little every time your heart beats. Show me the shooter knows something about windage. If a shooter doesn't know how far a given bullet from a given calibre drifts in a wind of a given speed, he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if he were locked inside.

That would be a little hard in my case because I have yet to write about a character who knows any of those things.

In the novel I cited earlier the person using the rifle is a good guy who knows nothing about guns who managed to get one of the bad guy's weapons. In fact he missed his shot. What was important was what the bullet did when it missed that caused problems for everyone, both good and bad.

In another story the guy is holding up a store with a gun he stole. I don't know if he even knew whether it was loaded. The subject never came up.

In one novel the person using the gun grabs a friend's pistol. The only thing pertinent to the story is how many shots it holds -- Yet I'm expected to become a blooming gun expert to satisfy all those little details.


These things don't have to be spelled out in minute detail, but it should be apparent the shooter knows them. If he doesn't, he isn't going to be any good with a rifle, and the only way I'll believe the scene is if he misses his target.

I suspect there are a lot of successful hunters who don't know all those things. They just point, let out their breath, hold steady and pull the trigger slowly. Not sure why they let their breath out, but the ones I know all seem to think it is a necessary part of the ritual.

It always best to write a scene with those who do know the facts in mind, rather than writing it with those who don't know the facts in mind.

True, but when I write about a television all that matters is whether the sound and the picture works, not the make and the model. When I write about a car all I have to do is make sure the car in the story will do what it needs to do. Everyone accepts that Cadillacs don't do well in the mountains and that Jeeps don't have over sized trunks. The engine, transmission, drive train, and rear end are only important if I'm writing about race cars... Another thing I don't do. This is true even though there are as many people who are dippy about cars as there are people who are dippy about guns.

There just seems to be something about guns, I don't know what it is, that makes people want to know things that are totally irrelevant to the story.
 

Jamesaritchie

I suspect there are a lot of successful hunters who don't know all those things. They just point, let out their breath, hold steady and pull the trigger slowly. Not sure why they let their breath out, but the ones I know all seem to think it is a necessary part of the ritual.

None that I've ever known. And as a lifelong hunter and a lifelong member of the NRA, I've known a great many hunters. Successful hunters generally know far more about rifles than I mentioned. There's far, far more to making a difficult shot than just holding steady and pulling the trigger slowly. Successful hunters not only have to know the things I mentioned, but fifty other things, as well. No hunter is going to be successful in any way without knowing all there is to know about windage, about bullet penetration, about how different types of bullets work when they hit flesh, about mid-range trajectory, and half a dozen other things. Without solid knowledge of mid-range trajectory and windage, you won't hit your target, even if you're steady as a rock.

And you don't let all your breath out, only half of it. It's for the same reason you let out part of your breath when you try holding your breath under water. Too much air in the lungs makes it harder. Take a deep breath, let out part of it, and you can then hold your breath longer, and you'll be steadier in the process.

"Squeezing the trigger" is something I'd as soon never see again, too. You never really squeeze the trigger. And if you have any experience with a rifle, you don't even pull the trigger slowly. That's for beginners. Experience shooters generally do what's called a "trigger press." It's very fast.

Triggers are something else. They aren't one kind for every occasion. You have to know something about trigger pull, how much play there is in a trigger, the difference between a crispt and a soft trigger, a regular trigger and a set trigger, or a set trigger and a double-set trigger.

No one really holds a firearm steadily. Some are steadier than others, but no one is steady. It can't be done. Even with a rifle on a benchrest, there's just a bit of movement. Anyone firing offhand is going to be moving all over the place.

It's true enough that if you write about a television all that matters is the puicture and the sound, and true enough about cars. But it's also true that you still have to get the facts right, and when you don't know about weapons, you'll probably do stupid things with them in a story.

You know a Cadillac can't climb a sheep trail the way a Jeep can, so you wouldn't have it do this. But writers make equally stupid statements about firearms all the time.

It isn't just about guns, it's about any piece of technology the writer thinks he can bluff his way through. He can't. It's fine to say a character gets on his computer and e-mails someone. It's not fine when the writer has that computer do something computers can't do. If he does, he'll get caught.

But too many writers think all there is to hittting a target with a weapon is picking it up, aiming, and pulling the trigger. Doesn't matter how far away the target is, or what kind of weapon it is.

These thing sometimes aren't relevant to the story, but far more often than not, they are, even if it's behind the scenes.

It's fine to have a character who doesn't know anythong about firearms. But don't have that character be an expert shot, it simply does not ever work this way in real life. And do not ever have that character do something with a weapon that only an expert can do, or that can't be done at all, even by an expert.

People know how to drive a car, most people, on the other hand, are completely ignorant about firearms.

Sometimes such detail and knowledge can be irrelevant to the story, but more often than not, such details and knowledge make all the difference between a story that's believable, and one that's all bluff.

Sometimes "write what you know" really is meaningful. A character make have a reason for ignorance about a subject. The writer never does.

But the real point is, weapons are nothing at all like TVs and cars. If the character doesn't know enough to use a weapon effectively, then don't have him do so. You wouldn't have a person who has never driven a car jump in the car and be a good driver, so don't have a character who's never fired a weapon pick it up and be a good shot. And all using a TV generally involves is turning it on.

Most people have been using TVs and cars all their lives. Very few have much experience with firearms. It's seldom as simple as picking one up, pointing it, and pulling the trigger.

Odds are someone who lacks experience won't even know where the safety is, or, if it's a handgun, whether or not it even has a safety. Revolvers have no safety at all, while some semi-auto handguns have a trigger guard safety, a hammer lock safety, and a grip safety.

A rifle may also have different types and numbers of safeties, depending on whether it's a bolt action, a lever action, a pump action, or a semi-auto. Even a bolt action may have a trigger guard safety or a tang safety.

Fortunately, many writers do take the time to get these details right. It isn't difficult. If you don't know, someone else will. But when a writer doesn't take the time, and has a character do something really stupid or unrealistic with a weapon, it can make a lot of readers, and editors, put down the story and look for another.
 

mr mistook

Wow! Now I need to add guns to my ever growing list of research items.

So far I need to research:

*Manhattan's Upper West Side (circa 1994)

*Applied Tae Kwon Do

*certain facets of Buddhism

*certain facets of the record industry

*and now guns.
 

mr mistook

As far as pet peeves go...

I have to agree with the implausible or plain unimaginative science that plagues most science fiction. I read too much Carl Sagan and other hard science growing up. It spoiled me for science fiction.

I also agree with the air conditioning ducts being over used. Along those lines, many authors have a very limited understanding of HVAC, plumbing, electricity, carpentry, etc.

No drop-ceiling in the world could support the weight of a small child, much less a grown man, yet spy-types routinely crawl around on the top-side of these flimsy ceilings.

Things that go down drains and end up somehow coming out the supply lines. That's 100% impossible.

cars that explode when they fall too far or impact too fast.

People who get knocked unconscious with a single blow.

People who accept strange things too easily:

"Jan, I've come from the future."
"My god! Hmmm. Wow! Okay, let's go."
 

reph

A series of actions that involve one or several characters but, halfway through the book, haven't added up to anything meaningful and show no promise of doing so, as if the author had constructed the story by saying "Hmm, let's see what I can make happen next."
 

preyer

the minutae of guns was just an example. and obviously i'm not saying i hate all details, but just the make and model of a gun tells me nothing. i think it's fair to give the readers credit for knowing how a stick shift works, but to suppose just because it's a crime novel we should know what obscure weapondry can and can't do is stretching things. and i'd rather know about windage and mid-range trajectory than description that reads like a serial number out of a catalogue.

some of it's really honestly unnecessary, though, like describing the type of engine the plane has, as in, 'the cessna had a hoochability type-b engine that sam wich, P.I., listened to as he stared out the window.' just over-detail annoys me, especially the kind that provides no bearing on my understanding of what's being described. if you wanted to add that that brotworth rifle was 'what russian snipers used, accurate but not always reliable in a clinch,' okay, now that works better. assuming i know all that about a brotworth (i just made that name up, btw) is assuming too much. telling me the person wore half-rim glasses with a weak presecription is all i need to know, not what his prescription is, know what i mean? that is, if you happen to be an expert in something, that's no reason to show off every bit of your knowledge to impress the reader who will only be bored with too much info.

i know what you mean about lack of accurate detail, though. one guy's story i was reading off the net treated an old vw bug like it was a regular car, having it be an automatic, front engine with a radiator. that the rest of the story was actually pretty good didn't matter as much because there was such a pall hanging over the rest because he missed the details.

add to ductwork the ability to pull a fire alarm and within two minutes have the entire population of the skyscraper standing on the street while the hero steals the information from a computer, avoiding being narrowly caught as they hide under the desk waiting for the disk to trap the data as after four minutes people start filing in back to work.

mm, every book i do there's actually a lot of research i wind up doing. that's probably true of every novelist at some point. some will read entire libraries on the subject and could probably pass college exams on the subject. the last book i did i had my heroes steal a hot air balloon, so i did a little research on them. i looked stuff up and got some general info, some details, things like that. i'm no expert on them, but i hope to know enough about them to let the reader know i did some research, and hopefully enough for someone who does know about them to buy into it. so, i think things like that you can fake a lot easier than guns, which, yeah, people will call you on. i then had two balloons 'crash' in mid-air; did i get the physics right? who really knows. and really who even cares? as long as you don't have them explode upon collision, put a little common sense into things, it should work out good enough for most people to believe. the important thing for me was to get what details i had in there correct and learn the reader a thing or two. i love learning @#%$ when reading.

same book, i had a couple of grenades totally rip off the roof of a train's observation deck. now, i know that was completely implausible, but you know what, i don't care and neither should the reader. it's just a cheesy action/adventure. hard core sci-fi is a different beast: you gotta know your @#%$.

hey, anyone ever watch 'mythbusters'? that show rocks ass.
 

R Lee E

originally posted by maestro "Sci-fi with inplausable science."

shucks, that rules me out ;)
 

Aramas

'Cutesy banter' between couples - it makes my skin crawl. The worst offenders I've encountered in sci fi/fantasy are Heinlein and Eddings. I won't even pick up a book by either now.

I recently grabbed the latest Wheel of Time novel from the Library, and I can't beleive I made it through the previous installments. The poor deluded fool seems to think he understands women, and if I ever see another girl smooth her blue satin dress with gold and silver embroidered stars, a high collar and finely worked matching earings, co ck an eyebrow and think "The nerve! How dare she look at me like that!" I'll vomit.
 

Writing Again

James, I can assure you that I have personally never had a gun do something that particular gun could not do.

I have written about "crack shots" back when I wrote pulp westerns. Quick draws and crack shots were the order of the day.

One problem I have, and you touched on it to an extent: In the world of Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys the heroes were crack shots, jet pilots, and all around experts in everything -- But in the real world few people are experts in more than one or two things, if that.

My main characters are ordinary people who suddenly find themselves over their heads in trouble.

I don't relate to the super hero, or the desire to write one.


Mr Mistook,

You don't really need to learn about all of those things. One of the reasons I recommend writers have a wide circle of friends of all kinds classes and types.

People who know things are usually happy to help you. I personally know cops, hunters, and even a couple who do the "old time musket" shooting. If I need to know something they will tell me. And yes, I thank them in the acknowledgments.

OOOOPs...

You are way wrong here.

People can be knocked unconscious with a single blow.

I know for a fact.

One minute I was standing up talking to the guy.

The next I was flat on my back looking up wondering how I had gotten down there.

I never saw it coming, I never saw it land. I felt something, and a few minutes later I woke up.
 

mr mistook

Writing Again,

Were you knocked unconscious, or were you simply knocked silly? The story you told - a similar thing happened to my brother. He and I got in a fight with two jerks on the block (we were teenagers). The whole thing was over in a matter of seconds. I managed to block the blows that were coming at me, but after the jerks ran off, I saw my brother on the ground in a complete daze. It took him several hours to get oriented, and even then, he simply couldn't remember being punched.

Anyway, I know it's possible to deliver a true K.O. and knock a guy out cold, but... it's like the Vulcan Death Grip, it takes a master to put somebody out cold with a single conk to the noggin. Just once I'd love to read a fight scene where the protagonist bashes the but of his pistol on the back of the bad guy's head, and instead of passing out, the bad guy just get's really pissed off and cries, "#U(%! That Hurt! Why you, I oughta..."

------------------

As for your advice about research, I'm inclined to side with you, and also Preyer. I don't want to totally wing it, but if theres a limit to what I can understand about guns or hot air balloons, I try to make sure the descriptions fall inside those limits.

I'd like to find people in my circles who could fill me in on the details of things, but my circles aren't what they used to be, and even in my heyday, I never knew a blessed soul who so much as touched a gun.

--------------------------

As for Sci-Fi... like I said - Carl Sagan and his ilk just spoiled the genre for me. I recognize, however, that much of the charm of Sci-Fi is in the symbolism. In other words - it's not always about the science.

Arthur C. Clarke was probably one of the most scrupulous Sci-Fi authors, but probably not the most entertaining.
 

Pthom

I read too much Carl Sagan and other hard science growing up. It spoiled me for science fiction. ... Carl Sagan and his ilk just spoiled the genre for me.
Interesting. I too have read lots of "hard science" but find it only feeds my imagination for writing SF. And, the late Mr. Sagan wrote a pretty damned good science fiction yarn, Contact. In fact, many of whom I consider to be among the better SF writers are, or were, professional scientists.
Asimov
Niven
Bear
Brin
and surely many others.
 

mr mistook

Well, with regard to Sagan, one thing he said about aliens has wedged itself stubbornly into my mind. He went on about how all life forms on Earth are structured as they are because of the planet's mass, composition, etc. He said that an alien might have a very hard time distinguishing between a human and a preying mantis (or something like that) because we all have heads with eyes and solid appendages branching out of a torso, etc, etc.

He further argued that a sentient being from another planet might be so truly alien that we would be utterly unable to recognize it as a life form even if it were standing right in front of us.

So when you think about all the possible types of planets out there and the possible forms of life they might form, and the weird bodies and the weird technologies that could arise, many of which could be beyond our ability to grasp....

well Mr. Spock and his pointy ears just doesn't seem to cut it!


"Contact" was great, but Sagan can't commit himself to showing us the aliens' bodies, and draws their culture in very broad strokes to get around the fact that the facts of alien culture may be largely unknowable.
----------------------


As for Clarke, he's written some gems. He was hailed as somewhat of a phrophet, but I remember stories by him where the super advanced alien invaders from another galaxy had vacuum tube computers! Even Clarke couldn't forsee transistors or microchips.

That's the horrible thing about predicting the future... it's impossible!
 

Writing Again

Were you knocked unconscious, or were you simply knocked silly?

I was silly before that. Was not dazed. Was about twenty, he wasn't a boxer in the professional sense but he knew how to box. We were talking. I had no idea I was in a fight until it was over.

well Mr. Spock and his pointy ears just doesn't seem to cut it!

His pointy ears are about all the alien most people can take.

Human beings can't even adjust to me for crying out loud let alone an alien. To a conservative I have to be a liberal because I don't think like a conservative. To a liberal I have to be a conservative because I don't think like a liberal.

Neither camp can conceive there just might be a third opinion. Same with atheists versus Christians and Communists versus Capitalists. None of them can conceive that there can possibly be a third opinion. And if they do grasp that idea then they insist it must fit upon an arc between their two opposing opinions.

"You are with me or you are against me. Now which is it?" is the slogan of mankind. There are only two reasons for disagreeing with the speaker -- you are either the enemy or an idiot.

An alien might not be able to tell a human from a dolphin. To humanity the dolphin is the ultimate alien. Even when we know it is as intelligent as the human the human will discount that as important because the dolphin shows no interest in watching Internet porn.
 
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