Something to ponder....

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maestrowork

1. Are fiction writers good liar (in real life)?

2. Are liars good fiction writers?
 

evanaharris

1. Are fiction writers good liar (in real life)?

2. Are liars good fiction writers?

Not necessarily.

I think being a good liar requires a complete and total lack of imagination. It requires working within a very observable, unquestionable reality -- that of stark facts and figures. A highly imaginative person would probably embellish too much.

Of course, I'm a moderately good liar, and I write fiction, and consider myself an imaginative person. But my lies aren't imaginative. It's all about omitting certain truths, and not offering information not requested, and about sticking as close to the original story as possible, just leaving out the incriminating facts. And about finding lies that require the least amount of explanation.

I'm far too good at it for my OWN good. But I don't think it's got anything to do with imagination.
 

cwfgal

Something to ponder

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1. Are fiction writers good liar (in real life)?
2. Are liars good fiction writers?<hr></blockquote>

1. If I say yes, can you believe my answer given that I write fiction?
2. Sometimes.

Beth
 

macalicious731

Re: Something to ponder

All I will say is this: If I need a good excuse, I can come up with a handful of reliable ones right quick.

Not that I always use them. ;)
 

Nateskate

Good Actors!

Honestly, I think the great writers are actors without a stage.

I'm yet to be considered a great writer, but even so, I feel that the art is to be able to understand each of the characters as if we were actors living in their shoes for a moment.

You can have a great story line , but without characters, it generally will fall flat. And again, I'd say that the most spiritual of teachers employ the art of a parable, or story, to convey the most complex of truths.

A lie is an attempt at deception, but a story is an attempt at enlightenment, not to trick the reader, but to help the reader see what eye has not seen, nor ear has heard.
 

reph

Re: Something to ponder

I'd probably be a failure as a liar. Maybe practice makes one better at it, but I don't want to try the experiment. However, I can easily utter falsehoods if the social context makes clear that they are falsehoods–that is, if a listener will know I'm doing humor or sarcasm.

I can also write descriptions of things that never happened. This doesn't feel like lying.

But my fiction writing has been minimal, so I'm a poor example for your question. I don't really belong on the Novels board. I hang out here because it offers interesting discussions.
 

Gala

liars

People lie on AW all the time, or gee, should I say contradict themselves.

Does the Internet count as real life?

No, I'm not a liar. I've lied in the past and sometimes it was delicious. Especially lying to boyfriends about factoids they didn't need to know. <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif" />

Now I take the need out on my novels.
 

mr mistook

Re: liars

Everybody lies from time to time, so I define a "liar" is somebody who really lies just for the fun of it. Somebody who considers lying a great talent. I've known a few people who were like that.

The fatal flaw of all pathological liars is that they think normally honest people have no ability to lie. I had an ex who I suspected was lying big-time. I pretended to believe her. In that sense, I was lying. I pretended to be as gullible as she thought I was. I allowed her to string me along until she pulled out enough rope to hang herself. I tripped her up and *flip! She totally betrayed herself.
 

Writing Again

Re: liars

First you have to define what a lie is and what the truth is.

At one extreme anything that is not the absolute truth is a lie and therefore wrong. When taken this far the difference between whether a chair is burgundy or red is of vital importance because if you say red and it was burgundy you have just told a lie. Under this aegis all forms of fiction are lies because they are not in fact the truth. Under this rule actors who display emotions they might not actually feel are liars one and all. Practical jokes are no longer harmless fun, they become major sins.

The Bible only names and condemns one form of lie: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

My personal criteria for the truth versus lie issue is simple. The truth or falsehood of most things is immaterial. The only time it matters is when I base an action on the words of someone else. To give a simple example: If someone tells me they own a thoroughbred dog the truth of the dog's breeding is of no importance unless I am ready to pay them $2,000 for a puppy: Then it matters: It is not a lie until I act upon it and they accept the money for it. If it appears to you that I consider professional sales people professional liars you are probably correct.

Stated this way the question becomes: Are writers better able to manipulate others through deception better than the average member of the population.

Personally I doubt it.
 

reph

Re: liars

mr mistook wrote: "Everybody lies from time to time, so I define a "liar" is somebody who really lies just for the fun of it."

No, everybody does not lie from time to time, unless you count honest mistakes in speech as lies.

It's easy to identify habitual liars. They think everybody else lies, too (generally, people tend to believe that most people resemble them on a broad range of traits), and they've narrowed their definition of "lying" to exclude whatever it is they do.
 

Stace001

I don't think either statement is necessarily true. I write fiction, but I don't think I'm a good liar because to lie means someone has to 'hear' the hesitation in my voice or 'see' my facial expression change as I tell a lie.

Being able to write fiction is easier because most of the time, you are sitting in a room alone where no-one can see or hear you.:)
 

katdad

Reminds me of what my uncle said once, many years ago.

Both he and my father were dyed in the wool SF fans.

Somebody asked my uncle "Why do you read that stuff?"

He said, "When I read a lie, I like to read a damn good one."

(he was of course joking but he hit the nail on the head, fiction is essentially a good lie.)

Seriously, no, liars per se are pathological and don't have the discipline to write well. I'm certain there are exceptions but generally good writers are people of reasonable personal integrity.
 

preyer

by definition, 'fiction' is a lie. everyone's heard the old saw, 'truth is stranger than fiction.' so, when you pick up a fantasy book, you're not being lied to because you *willingly* accept that the contents aren't real. therein is a major difference, eh? if i see a play or read a fictional book, i can't claim i'm being deceived any more than i can claim the wall hurt my head when i willingly slammed my noggin into it, can i?

i'm a lousy liar in general, when it doesn't have much to do with anything. if i do lie, it's just to defend myself from getting bitched out by my wife. 'sure, honey, i took the trash out. now if you'll excuse me, i have to go vacuum the back yard. oh, by the way, i think someone left a bag of money by the front door. if you don't see it, just look around for it for about five minutes.' she'd bust my ass every single time i pulled some lame crap like that. at the same time, we accept lies because it makes us feel better: 'size doesn't matter,' is a perfect example, or, 'no, i don't prefer women with one small boob and one huge one. i think it's sexy. best of both worlds right there, baby!'

now, i say i'm a terrible liar, but once when i was a kid, back in my wilder daze, a buddy and me stole a jeep cherokee. after a bit of joy-riding (i was driving), as i was parked by the side of what i thought was a deserted road that late at night while looking up in the owner's manual how to get the thing in four wheel drive when a sheriff pulled up. few people can even begin to imagine what goes through your head at a time like that... few people can even understand why someone would steal a jeep, lol. anyway, i rolled down the window, gave the cop in the passenger seat a big grin as my heart was ready to explode out my chest, and asked nicely what the problem was. he asked what i was doing and i showed him the manual i was looking at, saying how i was just looking something up. there was a little banter and he asked what was wrong with my friend. i looked over and my partner in crime was plastered to the door, eyes bugged out and looking guilty as sin. hm, i thought, i wonder if this thing can outrun a cop through that field over there? oh, i said, he always looks like that, ha ha. he looked me over again, nodded slightly, said have a nice night, and they pulled away. well, that rather put a damper on the evening, so we called it a night. oh, hell yeah, i lied my way out of that one to the extent that even a grizzled sheriff didn't question why i was on a country road at three in the morning during the winter, not even asking for a driver's license. otherwise, i can't lie myself out of a wet paper sack. (lest anyone think i'm a bad person, i've never cheated on a girlfriend or my wife, have never made a girl think i loved her to get her naked, nor walked off with the company's laptop when it would fit so nicely in my lunchbox. it was just a crazy thing a couple of bored kids did a long time ago. i'm just the type of person that will try anything once, twice if it hurts.)

consequently, i write bad stories, so what does mean? lol.
 

Writing Again

Re: liars

mr mistook wrote: "Everybody lies from time to time, so I define a "liar" is somebody who really lies just for the fun of it."


By mr mistook's definition I am definately a liar. Someone will say, "How are you today," and I will reply, "I'm doing great since my lobotomy last week, and how are you?" I figure there is no point in telling a lie unless you are having fun doing it.


reph says,

No, everybody does not lie from time to time, unless you count honest mistakes in speech as lies.

I think mr mistook is referring to the age old example: You don't walk into a terminally ill patients room and say, "Since you are going to be dead in a couple of months have you put me in your will yet?" or "I really have better things to do with my time than come down here to visit you but my wife and mother told me I'd look like a jerk if I didn't."

Nor does one normally turn to their boss on Monday morning and tell them, "You must have taken stupid pills over the weekend to come up with an idea like that."

Or how about a man telling his wife, "Well, yes, honey I guess I did stare for 35 seconds at the cute wiggle on the blonde's caboose who just walked by in the miniskirt."
 

Gala

Telling lies is stressful

Okay I can't stand the pressure any more. People keep asking me about my christmas, and I realize thanks to you guys I have been lying pathologically in my answers.

I don't want to talk about it.

I like Larry Block's Book, Telling Lies for Fun and Profit

To get over my penchant for lying about how I plan to spend christmas I am going to write a fiction scene about it today.

ttfn.
 

drgnlvrljh

Re: Telling lies is stressful

Lying is something that comes in degrees. And "truth" is subjective.

There are the "Little White Lies" we tell to avoid hurting someone's feelings, or to keep from getting smacked. (ie; "Honey, does this dress make me look fat?" "Of course not, Dear!")

There are "Fibs" we tell, because we really don't feel like letting someone know personal information about us (ie; "How are you today?" "Fine and dandy!" [When inside you just want to die because you told your wife that dress made her look fat, and she made you sleep on the couch for the past week because of it, and now she won't even let you near her])

There are the "social" lies we tell, because to tell the absolute truth would either cause you to be a pariah, or unemployed ("Sure, Boss. I think that idea'll work." [When you're thinking the boss is a moron, and his great idea will tank, but you don't have the position to really do anything about it]).

There people who cannot differentiate between "opinion" and "truth", which can cause no end of friction when there are those who happen to disagree.

There are the "sociopathic" lies told by politicians and salesmen. They have an agenda, to either get your vote, or for you to buy something, so they will gloss over the downside to convince you to part with what they want from you.

There are pathological liars, gossip mongers, and people who just don't have a grasp on reality.

What makes something a lie, IMO? Is when the person being lied to does not accept the story being told to them.

Novelists are liars of the best kind, IMO. ;) We tell a good story, and the people we lie to know its a lie, but are willing to suspend their disbelief to be entertained. Everyone ends up happy, in the end.

For me, telling a good story, in written form, is a lie I'm able to to pull off, because no one is being hurt (except for a fictional character, or ten). IRL, I have a very hard time lying, because there's something deep inside me that hates hurting others. It's all about the comfort level, I guess. So, if that dress looks hideous on my best friend, I'll not tell her it looks fine, but I probably won't tell her that it looks hideous. I'll probably evade by asking her if she really loves it, and if so, I'll say the decision is hers, since I have no fashion sense. :lol
 

reph

WritingAgain wrote: "I think mr mistook is referring to the age old example: You don't walk into a terminally ill patients room and say, "Since you are going to be dead in a couple of months have you put me in your will yet?"

I don't know what kind of lie mr mistook was referring to. Obviously, you don't blurt out everything that's on your mind all the time. (You couldn't. Nobody talks that fast.)

After reading some of the analyses above, I know why I see so many poorly dressed women on the street. They all have husbands who think "Do I look good in this?" is a request for reassurance, not a request for an opinion.
 

aka eraser

Yeah reph, but better your sartorial sensibilities be offended than the poor schmuck tell the truth. ;)
 

mr mistook

I don't know what kind of lie mr mistook was referring to.


When I call in sick to work, I never say, "Hi, I drank too much last night and I have a horrible hangover. I'm not coming in because I really need to sleep this one off. I know I shouldn't drink on a Sunday night, but what can I say? This job of yours sucks, and the pay is crappy, and frankly, that depresses me... depresses me enought to seek the occasional three night bender to escape my worldly woes. I know it's not the healthiest decision I could make, but hell... I don't really care. Buh-bye now."

When I've blocked out a whole weekend to delve into working on my novel, and an old friend calls to invite me out for coffee, I don't say, "You know what? You kind of irritate me lately, because we've grown apart over the years, and frankly it's a struggle to converse with you anymore because you always want to talk politics - or show me pictures of your baby - and I really just wanted to stay home and write, which I know you consider to be a pipe-dream... because you're that kind of unimaginative person. So can I take a rain-check?"

In both cases I'm protecting my selfish interests much more than sparing anybody's feelings. I'm no saint. I admit it. Still, I don't scam people out of their money, or preach what I don't practice. I don't tell pretty girls I'm a movie producer, or cheated on a lover.

I don't think the lie itself is the "sin". It's the motive behind it, and it's effect on others who believe it. If you want to get biblical (as has been happening lately in a few threads) Jesus himself lies to his Apostles on one occasion. They ask him if he will be attending the Passover celebrations, and he says he's not going. Lo and behold, he shows up unexpectedly and has a face-off with the Pharisees. Honesty obviously wasn't the best policy that day.

The situation is vastly different if, say, you scam somebody out of their money, or you destroy their reputation, or you deny a person some critical information that makes all the difference in their life. And if you do these things for survival, or self defence, then *MAYBE* there's a justification, but if you lie on this scope merely for convenience... er... That's not good.

------------------

As for fiction, the best fiction is actually a form of truth. Did a turtle and a hare ever really race? Of course not. Aasop is a bald faced liar, but there's a deeper truth. Turtles can win against rabbits, if turtles persevere, and if rabbits rest on their laurels.
 

reph

I don't think the lie itself is the "sin". It's the motive behind it, and it's effect on others who believe it.

I wasn't raised to be religious, and the "sin" concept never really caught on with me. Lying between friends bothers me because it poisons a relationship (either I'm fooling you or you're fooling me; bad in either case). Lying in business, of course, is meant to cheat or exploit somebody.

Besides that, saying something false just doesn't come naturally to me. When I speak spontaneously, the truth comes out without effort. Saying the opposite would feel wrong. This doesn't mean I can't say "A minister, a priest, and a rabbi walked into a bar..." because they didn't really walk into a bar. It doesn't mean I have to give all my reasons for declining an invitation to coffee, as in mr mistook's second example. I don't say "Sorry, I find you boring." I might say "Sorry, I have something I've got to work on all weekend."

But the original question was about fiction and lying, not just lying.

Patrick O'Brian wrote quantities of highly engaging fiction and falsified major aspects of his life. Other novelists are more honest, as far as I know. But if they tell minor lies every week, I wouldn't be in a position to hear about it.
 

triceretops

I don't think lier's could be good fiction writers, because if they told you they could write good fiction they'd be lier's.

Tri
 

Jamesaritchie

The best definition of a fiction writer I've ever heard is "A person who tells the truth by lying his ass off."

I think this is the point. The events in fiction are usually things that never really happened, but good fiction always uses these events to tell/reveal the truth.

I don't think the ability to lie or not lie well has anything to do with writing fiction one way or the other. Writing fiction is a talent and a skill, and then the ability to see the truth and put it in entertaining form.

Fiction is more like a parable than a lie. Good fiction simply uses an imaginary event to illustrate a real truth.
 

stormie267

I don't see my fiction writing as a lie, I see it as using my imagination to any degree I choose. Making good use of one's imagination is neither truth nor lie. It's a whole other world. I like it there. ;)
 

mr mistook

Thinking of the term "fiction" as being equal to "lies" is funny when you consider the way books are catagorized as being either "fiction" or "non-fiction"

In other words... "lies" and "non-lies". It strikes me as funny because the negative connotation "non" falls to those books which are more or less the truth.
 
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