Editors and Agents Sound out on Writers Dissing Them in Public

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AnneMarble

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This is a post from romance author Cheyenne McCray:
http://www.themidnighthour.net:80/11-editors-agents-on-websites-and-public-dissing

These tips were very interesting. Several said they didn't have time to check an author's website, but others said they were sure to check it out -- and that how the author presented herself might influence their decision. They talked about the professionalism of the website, but they also talked about what they thought when they saw writers dissing editors, agents, and so forth.

For example, from an assistant editor at Warner Books. "...nothing sends a red flag up faster than an author badmouthing people in the business. Publishing is a small world–you’ve got to be careful not to burn any bridges because you never know what might happen or who might end up where. And a quick google search means anyone can find it…and forward the link along to everyone they know."

The overall theme is that writers shouldn't complain about their editors, etc. in public (such in a blog). A lot of this is common sense advice. You never know when your editor or publisher might be reading your blog, not to mention a future editor. And I can think of many cases where authors should have followed this advice. (For example, one formerly best-selling author's complaints about her publisher simply made her out to be a flake who tried to get out of a bad contract and ended up in legal trouble.)

But aren't there cases where this warning doesn't apply, and authors should say something? For example, what about the authors who had issues about Triskelion and brought them up in public? If they hadn't complained, a lot of other writers might have unknowingly signed up with Triskelion and then ended up embroiled in the bankruptcy. And what about people who have been burned by a scam agent or vanity press, and blog about that experience as a warning to other authors? Surely editors aren't going to take those complaints against them! :rolleyes:

Besides... In some cases, I wonder if all this talk telling authors not to diss editors and publishers is yet another way to keep authors from finding out what's really going on in publishing. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.
:crazy:

Another thing bugs me about this post. People who have signed up with printers such as PublishAmerica often get sucked into supporting their so-called publisher no matter what -- sometimes to a "cultish" degree. When other writers realize it's a bad deal and try to warn people about those publishers, the "cultish" authors warn them that writers complain about their publisher will end up in some kind of blacklist. It's used as a way to keep the complainers in check. Do you think this blog could give them support for their beliefs?

Some of the comments did give me pause. For example, from an Executive Editor at HarperCollins, "If they wouldn’t say it to the person directly, then they shouldn’t put it on a site/blog, imo…. Of course, I also believe that applies to editors, publishers, reviewers, etc. as well."

:Wha: How did reviewers get in there? In most cases, they're not even part of the publishing industry. I can't understand why they were brought up here, unless it's because some editors are upset about their writers getting bad reviews at review sites and snarky review blogs. But surely professionals accept bad reviews as a part of the industry?...
:Shrug:
 

reigningcatsndogs

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It's a fine line to walk. I hate to see any writer get worked over by a publisher who is not on the up-and-up, but I do worry that if I say something, it will neatively impact any potential to ever progress. I would think, though, that the good and legitimate publishers would also want to see the riff-raff exposed, because it can't make their job any easier to have them out there doing what they do
 

Jamesaritchie

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Dissing

It's mostly just common sense. I don't think anyone would say you shouldn't diss a scam, and I've read and heard many agents and editors blast PublishAmerica.

The trouble is that too many new writers blast legitimate editors, agents, publishers, and reviewers when nothing at all wrong has been done, except for the fact that the writer's book didn't sell, or needed editing, or a reviewer didn't like it, etc. It's amazing how many new writers believe the book they wrote is perfect as is, and no one should touch their precious prose.

And reviewers are part of the publishing industry. In some ways, a highly important part. It's darned near impossible to sell well in this business without the aid of reviews in the right places. Writers should be able to take a bad review and keep on going, but far too many start a war because someone didn't like their book, and that's just dumb.
 

Will Lavender

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The trouble is that too many new writers blast legitimate editors, agents, publishers, and reviewers when nothing at all wrong has been done, except for the fact that the writer's book didn't sell, or needed editing, or a reviewer didn't like it, etc. It's amazing how many new writers believe the book they wrote is perfect as is, and no one should touch their precious prose.

Exactly.
 

AnneMarble

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...I would think, though, that the good and legitimate publishers would also want to see the riff-raff exposed, because it can't make their job any easier to have them out there doing what they do
Common sense probably rules there. However, there might be that fine line you mentioned in the cases of publishers that aren't scammers but are going through "troubles." (Such as Triskelion, which just declared bankruptcy.)

It's mostly just common sense. I don't think anyone would say you shouldn't diss a scam, and I've read and heard many agents and editors blast PublishAmerica.
Oh, yeah, good point. :D

The trouble is that too many new writers blast legitimate editors, agents, publishers, and reviewers when nothing at all wrong has been done, except for the fact that the writer's book didn't sell, or needed editing, or a reviewer didn't like it, etc. It's amazing how many new writers believe the book they wrote is perfect as is, and no one should touch their precious prose.
I've seen that a lot as a member of a romance reader site that does reviews. We've had plenty of writers diss us for posting negative reviews. It isn't as bad as it used to be when the site was new, but now and then, someone will surprise us. ;) I've also seen the dissing in response to review blogs, and it almost always (maybe always?) makes the authors look unprofessional.

And reviewers are part of the publishing industry. In some ways, a highly important part. It's darned near impossible to sell well in this business without the aid of reviews in the right places. Writers should be able to take a bad review and keep on going, but far too many start a war because someone didn't like their book, and that's just dumb.
That's why I was surprised to see one of the editors say something about what reviewers should say or how they should say it. An executive editor no less. Surely editors should know better, particularly an executive editor. :Wha:
 

Jamesaritchie

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That's why I was surprised to see one of the editors say something about what reviewers should say or how they should say it. An executive editor no less. Surely editors should know better, particularly an executive editor. :Wha:


Usually, yes, an editor should know better. But reviewers, too, can cross the line. No one should blast a reviewer for what he says about a book, but now and then a reviewer reviews the writer, says nasty things about the writer, rather than reviewing the book itself.

Even when this happens, the writer should remain silent, but it's perfectly okay for others, editors, agents, friends of the writer, to blast the reviewer for him.
 

pconsidine

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Common sense probably rules there. However, there might be that fine line you mentioned in the cases of publishers that aren't scammers but are going through "troubles." (Such as Triskelion, which just declared bankruptcy.)
I don't think pointing out that a publisher is having financial difficulties falls into the same category. There's a dramatic difference between describing an experience with a company and saying "this editor sucks." Personal vs. organizational.

But even there, it has a great deal to do with presentation. There's a pretty wide gap between saying "Triskelion is having financial difficulties" and saying "Triskelion hasn't paid me yet. They suck. Avoid them like the disease-bearing donkeys they are."
 

kristie911

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It's one thing to dis PA but when you start dissing big-time publishers because an editor wanted you to change something, then you just look silly and high-maintanence...not a look you want to portray.

Or you start bad-mouthing an agent for passing up your precious work, you can bet they'll never look at anything you write again.

They may not like something but I'm betting they know better than you do what works and what doesn't. If an agent or editor told me to change something, bet your bottom dollar I'll start my revisions immediately. Nobody's perfect. Certainly not me! :)
 

RG570

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Seems like it's a bit too biased towards editors and agents. It's not a good feeling to live under this constant threat of being blacklisted for voicing your opinion.

Authors used to speak out all the time, against authors they hated and other things. Now we can't voice our opinions?

Meh, this hegemony can be unfair sometimes. It's okay for editors and agents to trash people and make their little inside jokes, but when an author speaks his mind, it's the end of the world.

It's a shame.
 

Crinklish

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Seems like it's a bit too biased towards editors and agents. It's not a good feeling to live under this constant threat of being blacklisted for voicing your opinion....

It's okay for editors and agents to trash people and make their little inside jokes, but when an author speaks his mind, it's the end of the world.

I don't think that's what most of the quoted publishing people meant; it's perfectly natural to sit down in your critique group or with your friends and bitch till the cows come home. The point is that you shouldn't be posting said bitching on Teh Interwebs unless you're perfectly comfortable with that knowledge reaching the subject of the gripe.

In an event like the Triskelion collapse, where authors simply posted the facts, their direct experiences, etc., I don't think most agents or editors would hold it against them. It was true, after all. The same with complaining about PublishAmerica or other scams--all the negative things about those groups have been clearly documented (by our esteemed board proprietors among others) and if it hurts Miranda Prather's feelings, too bad.

But if you post on your blog that your editor is a total hack who wouldn't know good writing if it bit her in the tote bag, you need to expect that it'll get back to her. And if it's really true, so what? You probably don't want to continue that relationship (and if it's really true, you can bet that the rest of the industry suspects it as well). But if it's sour grapes or venting or just your opinion in the face of 20 years of decorated service, prepare not to be taken seriously, and live with the consequences.

No one's saying you can't voice your opinion--but you'd better own it when you do.
 

pconsidine

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Authors used to speak out all the time, against authors they hated and other things. Now we can't voice our opinions?
Perhaps that is a good point. After all, one of the best things about the old-time authorial feuds is that they were still well written. Isn't Mark Twain's diss on James Fenimore Cooper almost a classic of literature by now?

I say snark away. At best, you deliver a well-reasoned and well-argued trashing that people will enjoy reading years from now. At worst, you show that you're as bad a writer as everyone thought you were and thereby remove yourself from my competitive landscape.

It's a win/win for me.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Seems like it's a bit too biased towards editors and agents. It's not a good feeling to live under this constant threat of being blacklisted for voicing your opinion.

Authors used to speak out all the time, against authors they hated and other things. Now we can't voice our opinions?

Meh, this hegemony can be unfair sometimes. It's okay for editors and agents to trash people and make their little inside jokes, but when an author speaks his mind, it's the end of the world.

It's a shame.

Yes, and they often paid dearly for doing so. When you get so big you're actually supporting a major publisher, you, too can speak out and say you hate everyone. Until then, it isn't wise to do so. Not in this business, or any other.

The trouble with a writer speaking his mind is that he usually betrays the fact that he can't get published, and he's almost always wrong. When an agent or editor speaks out, he's almost always right, and he's doing so because of some truly stupid thing a new writer did. And by and large, agents and editors do not name names..
 

Jamesaritchie

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Perhaps that is a good point. After all, one of the best things about the old-time authorial feuds is that they were still well written. Isn't Mark Twain's diss on James Fenimore Cooper almost a classic of literature by now?

You're allowed to diss someone already dead and gone. Mark Twain was only sixteen when Cooper died, and the dissing came many years later.
 

below

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But if you post on your blog that your editor is a total hack who wouldn't know good writing if it bit her in the tote bag, you need to expect that it'll get back to her. And if it's really true, so what? You probably don't want to continue that relationship (and if it's really true, you can bet that the rest of the industry suspects it as well). But if it's sour grapes or venting or just your opinion in the face of 20 years of decorated service, prepare not to be taken seriously, and live with the consequences.

No one's saying you can't voice your opinion--but you'd better own it when you do.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Tell the truth if you speak out, but know that you have to stand by what you say when you do. And that might include saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong."
 

lkp

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Some of the comments did give me pause. For example, from an Executive Editor at HarperCollins, "If they wouldn’t say it to the person directly, then they shouldn’t put it on a site/blog, imo…. Of course, I also believe that applies to editors, publishers, reviewers, etc. as well."

:Wha: How did reviewers get in there? In most cases, they're not even part of the publishing industry. I can't understand why they were brought up here, unless it's because some editors are upset about their writers getting bad reviews at review sites and snarky review blogs. But surely professionals accept bad reviews as a part of the industry?...
:Shrug:

I think reviewers are there because many many writers write book reviews. This is especially true in lit fic. Negative reviews are certainly fair game, but I think one should think twice and three times about writing a snarky review. I think the rule that if you wouldn't say something directly to the person involved, you should put it on a site/blog etc. is a very useful rule of thumb, and it covers many of the cases you mentioned.
 

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I know I am the rare dark horse in this opinion, but I would rather never publish a book than let an editor or publisher screw with me. I suppose that's 20% arrogance and 80% not having to worry about making money.

But I also think the balance of power being so ridiculously in the corner of pubs and eds is the main reason most books suck right now, so they can bite me.

I've only thrown down once publicly (when an epublisher was really scummy about a review situation) and gradually, over the course of several months, even the people who thought I was "mean" have sent me emails saying "you were so right." They signed a lot of authors who are now miserable, and those who were already miserable were, at the time, FILLING my inbox with "don't say where you heard it but..." emails.

Which I freaking hate. Cowards disgust me. Bullies find out hard what genuine, snake-spit mean really is when they cross me.

*shrug* There are occasions when pubs and eds are treated unfairly... but doesn't this smack of a threat? Any publisher who would turn down a brilliant manuscript because they didn't respect free speech is an idiot.
 

pollykahl

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"When you get so big you're actually supporting a major publisher, you, too can speak out and say you hate everyone. Until then, it isn't wise to do so. Not in this business, or any other."

Even then it would only reflect badly on you. Can you imagine how unprofesssional Stephen King would look if he behaved this way?
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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I know I am the rare dark horse in this opinion, but I would rather never publish a book than let an editor or publisher screw with me. I suppose that's 20% arrogance and 80% not having to worry about making money.

But I also think the balance of power being so ridiculously in the corner of pubs and eds is the main reason most books suck right now, so they can bite me.

I've only thrown down once publicly (when an epublisher was really scummy about a review situation) and gradually, over the course of several months, even the people who thought I was "mean" have sent me emails saying "you were so right." They signed a lot of authors who are now miserable, and those who were already miserable were, at the time, FILLING my inbox with "don't say where you heard it but..." emails.

Which I freaking hate. Cowards disgust me. Bullies find out hard what genuine, snake-spit mean really is when they cross me.

*shrug* There are occasions when pubs and eds are treated unfairly... but doesn't this smack of a threat? Any publisher who would turn down a brilliant manuscript because they didn't respect free speech is an idiot.

I don't see it as a free speech issue. I see it in part as a politeness issue; saying things like that about anyone is rude. You don't air dirty laundry in public.

Another aspect is the simple one that when people read your blog, they will form a picture of you. The harder you seem to be to work with, the greater the reward has to be for it to be worth it for them.

It just doesn't seem worthwhile.
 

Sassenach

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Unless you're a complete moron, isn't it obvious that dissing your editor/house in public is a lousy idea?
 

aadams73

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Unless you're a complete moron, isn't it obvious that dissing your editor/house in public is a lousy idea?

Yup. This comes under the heading of "don't shit where you eat." Be professional and discreet.
 

Sean D. Schaffer

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Unless you're a complete moron, isn't it obvious that dissing your editor/house in public is a lousy idea?


Sassenach is quite right. Dissing your legitimate house or editor in public is really a bad idea. Not only is it the height of disrespect, but it also can get you, the author, in a hell of a lot of trouble.

I wouldn't want a powerful agent or editor working against me as a writer. So it should make perfect sense that writers should not diss their legitimate partners in this business in public.
 

below

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The issue is "dissing", in part...

There is a difference, though, between "dissing" someone, and dispassionately noting some dishonesty that took place - after working through the correct channels. Most certainly, "pick your battles wisely".

If it's not a personality conflict, but instead a widespread issue where say, the house breaks contracts or is doing something else wrong... Crinklish and AnneMarble brought up a recent situation at Triskelion, for example. If someone blows the whistle, after thoroughly trying to resolve a problem, that to me is not "dirty laundry".

Some people would and do muddy the waters over something silly and personal, and no doubt some are enraged if they feel someone spoke out of turn, even in a case of wrongdoing. Some people feel that loyalty and a united front is more important than anything else. That's really not a publishing thing, that's a human thing ... seems like that difference of viewpoint is a big issue on Capital Hill right now! ;)

Interestingly, a small publisher recently got into hot water (as in The Laaaaaaw). It looks as if literally thousands of dollars are now owed to writers and subscribers. Maybe it's just a big misunderstanding. A bad business model. Personal problems. Who knows.

I don't begrudge anyone for speaking up about the money they're owed or any worse crimes committed against them, given that it is relayed dispassionately and professionally... meaning that the publisher also has a chance to dispassionately and professionally disagree.
 
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