DON"T GET DOWN ON YOURSELF!! QT SHAK

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Don Allen

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I was driving home from my crappy construction job yesterday wondering what I could do to get my book published and thinking for a moment that maybe I'm just wasting my time. Then a commercial comes on the radio for a new T.V show featuring Shaquille O'neil helping a bunch over overweight kids to, well lose weight. He tells them over and over DON"T GET DOWN ON YOURSELF, DON"T GIVE UP. YOU CAN DO THIS!! IT's weird where you can find inspiration, but damn if I didn't pick up my head and say this guy is right... I can do this. We can do this. The only way were going to succeed in get our books published is if we doggedly pursue every avenue and query every agent, every publisher, and anyone who is remotely connected to the publishing world to make our voice known. YES DARN IT!! LETS GO GET THEM... I got to go back to my crappy construction job now, but I'm hitting agent query as soon as I get home...
 

johnzakour

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Sssh, don't tell Shaq he inspired you. Or when you get published he'll demand 15%.

Seriously, much of the success in this business is hanging in there and plugging away.
 

Geist

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"The thing is," said the wet blanket, "no amount of beating the bushes and contacting everyone remotely connected with the publishing world is going to make up for a lack or talent and craftsmanship."

I want so much to be able to make my living from my fiction, but I know that if in fact I am incapable of producing commercial quality fiction, I'm not going to, not ever. And that's just the hard cold truth that will not change, not even with all my wanting it to.

I've written in this group before about the education of a writer, and when I've suggested a bachelor's degree as the standard degree for a writer, I get tomatoes thrown at me. Why? Because people want to entertain the lotto-style fantasy that even without any academic preparation, they might be able to write a book that the vast majority of the reading public will love.

And now that I've brought up the horrible taboo of "talent," God knows what's going to become of me. But it's true: writing is an academic endeavor, and popular writers are the talented storytellers that are also academically inclined toward making those stories into novels.

I could be completely wrong here, but I don't think publishing success is a matter of luck. Fiction publishers have to publish books every year. They are desperate for interesting, page-turners written by talented writers. I used to be somewhat involved in publishing, and I can tell you this. The year you put out the same catalog you put out the year before is the year you go out of business. Publishers are desperate for material. I honestly believe that's why you see so much crap published in fiction. If a novel even begins to hold together as a minimal story, if it can just barely get people to turn the pages or be minimally interested in the characters, it's probably going to get published.

The truth is. Most people who write fiction cannot write with the minimum of craftsmanship required for fiction stories to work. Their characters are cliche' or unbelievable. Their actions are not motivated. They bore people with stupid description that goes on forever. And the dialogue, Oh Gott, der Dialog; they'd do better to write in a foreign language.

Look, I bought a book by an author. I knew, just by looking at her picture, it was going to be bad. I got the book and it was so bad, I actually used it to make a 50-point paper on fiction mistakes. It was a story. That is, it had characters, it had a beginning, a climax, and a denouement, but it was so unoriginal, so cliche, so unmotivated, so...stupid, I wouldn't have read past page three except I wanted to analyze it for all the poor writing. It was published by a very small publisher. I would be surprised if it earned a hundred dollars in roalties. But that's how most so-called writers write.

I got another book. This one was published by Harper-Collins. I got to page ten before I realized, I couldn't care less what happened to the characters. But it was put together minimally as a story, and was somewhat original. But reading it was like sitting on a bench watching people in a park. If I want to be bored, I can just close the book and be bored. Damn thing was casebound as well.

Most people cannot write fiction, even those who are published. Even those who are classical writers from long ago.

Now, see, I'm boring myself, which means you probably haven't even read to this paragraph. So I better quit.

Ed
 
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Shady Lane

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"The thing is," said the wet blanket, "no amount of beating the bushes and contacting everyone remotely connected with the publishing world is going to make up for a lack or talent and craftsmanship."

I want so much to be able to make my living from my fiction, but I know that if in fact I am incapable of producing commercial quality fiction, I'm not going to, not ever. And that's just the hard cold truth that will not change, not even with all my wanting it to.

I've written in this group before about the education of a writer, and when I've suggested a bachelor's degree as the standard degree for a writer, I get tomatoes thrown at me. Why? Because people want to entertain the lotto-style fantasy that even without any academic preparation, they might be able to write a book that the vast majority of the reading public will love.

And now that I've brought up the horrible taboo of "talent," God knows what's going to become of me. But it's true: writing is an academic endeavor, and popular writers are the talented storytellers that are also academically inclined toward making those stories into novels.

I could be completely wrong here, but I don't think publishing success is a matter of luck. Fiction publishers have to publish books every year. They are desperate for interesting, page-turners written by talented writers. I used to be somewhat involved in publishing, and I can tell you this. The year you put out the same catalog you put out the year before is the year you go out of business. Publishers are desperate for material. I honestly believe that's why you see so much crap published in fiction. If a novel even begins to hold together as a minimal story, if it can just barely get people to turn the pages or be minimally interested in the characters, it's probably going to get published.

The truth is. Most people who write fiction cannot write with the minimum of craftsmanship required for fiction stories to work. Their characters are cliche' or unbelievable. Their actions are not motivated. They bore people with stupid description that goes on forever. And the dialogue, Oh Gott, der Dialog; they'd do better to write in a foreign language.

Look, I bought a book by an author. I knew, just by looking at her picture, it was going to be bad. I got the book and it was so bad, I actually used it to make a 50-point paper on fiction mistakes. It was a story. That is, it had characters, it had a beginning, a climax, and a denouement, but it was so unoriginal, so cliche, so unmotivated, so...stupid, I wouldn't have read past page three except I wanted to analyze it for all the poor writing. It was published by a very small publisher. I would be surprised if it earned a hundred dollars in roalties. That's how most writers are.

I got another book. This one was published by Harper-collins. I got to page ten before I realized, I couldn't care less what happened to the characters. But it was put together minimally as a story, and was somewhat original. But reading it was like sitting on a bench watching people in a park. If I want to be bored, I can just close the book and be bored.

Most people cannot write fiction, even those who are published. Even those who are classical writers from long ago.

Now, see, I'm boring myself, which means you probably haven't even read to this paragraph. So I better quit.

Ed

Okay, I'm confused. We suck, and that's why we can't get published. But wait--what's published sucks too.

And school is the answer?
 

Zoombie

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I'm confused too...I find that most published is actually pretty good. That's why it's published...and I'm reading it...
 

Geist

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Okay, I'm confused. We suck, and that's why we can't get published. But wait--what's published sucks too.

And school is the answer?

See, here it comes.

I never said you suck. I never said Don Allen sucks. I've never read your work, so I have no idea if you suck. Don Allen sounds like he's had an interesting life, and he sounds a little older. My guess is he can probably sling a good story, if he wants to. I simply don't know.

I am speaking only in generalities. But, and this is a big wide but, if you have produced manuscripts, and you have never gone to college, and you can't get legitimately published, it may be safe to say that your stories aren't that good. Again, I don't know you, and I don't know if that's at all true.

But, honestly, tell me if this is not true: Just wanting it isn't enough.

Ed
 

Shady Lane

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I knew you meant generally. I didn't take it as a personal attack. That "we" was meant to refer to unpublished or unknown writers in general. I am published, actually (or I will be come September) but I still count myself as an unpublished writer. I don't know why. I'm rambling a bit.

I just don't really understand the point of your post. If what's being published is so bad, what are we supposed to be aspiring to?
 

RG570

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I'm not sure I understand how university can magically make people who otherwise can't write into publishable writers. Or how someone who can write, but not quite well enough, can't improve on their own and become published.

I mean, where does university fit in to it? I mean, other than elitism.
 

johnzakour

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Well, of course you need talent too.

But like Woody Allen (a fairly talented writer) said, "80% of success is showing up..."
 

Ali B

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See, here it comes.

I never said you suck. I never said Don Allen sucks. I've never read your work, so I have no idea if you suck. Don Allen sounds like he's had an interesting life, and he sounds a little older. My guess is he can probably sling a good story, if he wants to. I simply don't know.

I am speaking only in generalities. But, and this is a big wide but, if you have produced manuscripts, and you have never gone to college, and you can't get legitimately published, it may be safe to say that your stories aren't that good. Again, I don't know you, and I don't know if that's at all true.

But, honestly, tell me if this is not true: Just wanting it isn't enough.

Ed

I'm not playing Mod here or anything, but...This thread started out as a sunny out look to be shared with everyone. What makes you think you can hijack this thread and turn it into your soapbox? Please, if you are going to preach make a thread in TIO. I've been here for a long time, and thread hijacking isn't taken kindly to.

PS I don't mean to be rude. Just some advice.
 

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Add another wet blanket. (I'm sorry, really I am.)

Yes, ambition, perseverence, and never-quit attitude count for a lot. These factors are part of the make-up of every successful author I've known personally. And frankly, some of them don't write as well as I do--but man, they were just driven to finish a book, get those queries out, and find an agent, driven in a way I apparently am not.

Not every kid who dreams of being the starting center for the Lakers, and who works really hard toward that goal, is going to make a college team, much less play pro. Working hard on your skills, and wanting it so much you devote a lot of effort to the dream, increase your odds, but in the end, you might still be a woman who's 5'4" who has no chance.

That doesn't mean you give up the dream of publication. It means you hone your skills to their absolute best, even if that takes a long, long time, and you look yourself in the eye with the knowledge that even if you never make it, you gave it everything you had. That in itself is honorable.

Maryn, honorable realist
 

Zoombie

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Frankly, that's not too much of a wet blanket, really. It's the truth. Work hard, work a lot, and be perserverant, and then have a bit of luck, and you're in the door!
 

johnzakour

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I'm not playing Mod here or anything, but...This thread started out as a sunny out look to be shared with everyone. What makes you think you can hijack this thread and turn it into your soapbox? Please, if you are going to preach make a thread in TIO. I've been here for a long time, and thread hijacking isn't taken kindly to.

PS I don't mean to be rude. Just some advice.

I don't think he was hijacking at all. Just stating his opinion which is as valid as any other opinion. I don't agree with much of what he said. (I'd be afraid to hear what he thinks of my books...) But I don't think it was a hijacking attempt.
 

Ali B

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I was just kinda shocked. Here I was reading all these "you can do it" type posts and then, wham! negative. You're right, though, he probably didn't mean to hijack the thread.
 

Don Allen

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Sssh, don't tell Shaq he inspired you. Or when you get published he'll demand 15%.

Seriously, much of the success in this business is hanging in there and plugging away.


I just got off the floor from laughing... I know you're right... Thanks
 

Don Allen

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"The thing is," said the wet blanket, "no amount of beating the bushes and contacting everyone remotely connected with the publishing world is going to make up for a lack or talent and craftsmanship."

I want so much to be able to make my living from my fiction, but I know that if in fact I am incapable of producing commercial quality fiction, I'm not going to, not ever. And that's just the hard cold truth that will not change, not even with all my wanting it to.

I've written in this group before about the education of a writer, and when I've suggested a bachelor's degree as the standard degree for a writer, I get tomatoes thrown at me. Why? Because people want to entertain the lotto-style fantasy that even without any academic preparation, they might be able to write a book that the vast majority of the reading public will love.

And now that I've brought up the horrible taboo of "talent," God knows what's going to become of me. But it's true: writing is an academic endeavor, and popular writers are the talented storytellers that are also academically inclined toward making those stories into novels.

I could be completely wrong here, but I don't think publishing success is a matter of luck. Fiction publishers have to publish books every year. They are desperate for interesting, page-turners written by talented writers. I used to be somewhat involved in publishing, and I can tell you this. The year you put out the same catalog you put out the year before is the year you go out of business. Publishers are desperate for material. I honestly believe that's why you see so much crap published in fiction. If a novel even begins to hold together as a minimal story, if it can just barely get people to turn the pages or be minimally interested in the characters, it's probably going to get published.

The truth is. Most people who write fiction cannot write with the minimum of craftsmanship required for fiction stories to work. Their characters are cliche' or unbelievable. Their actions are not motivated. They bore people with stupid description that goes on forever. And the dialogue, Oh Gott, der Dialog; they'd do better to write in a foreign language.

Look, I bought a book by an author. I knew, just by looking at her picture, it was going to be bad. I got the book and it was so bad, I actually used it to make a 50-point paper on fiction mistakes. It was a story. That is, it had characters, it had a beginning, a climax, and a denouement, but it was so unoriginal, so cliche, so unmotivated, so...stupid, I wouldn't have read past page three except I wanted to analyze it for all the poor writing. It was published by a very small publisher. I would be surprised if it earned a hundred dollars in roalties. But that's how most so-called writers write.

I got another book. This one was published by Harper-Collins. I got to page ten before I realized, I couldn't care less what happened to the characters. But it was put together minimally as a story, and was somewhat original. But reading it was like sitting on a bench watching people in a park. If I want to be bored, I can just close the book and be bored. Damn thing was casebound as well.

Most people cannot write fiction, even those who are published. Even those who are classical writers from long ago.

Now, see, I'm boring myself, which means you probably haven't even read to this paragraph. So I better quit.

Ed


Ed, Wow... take it easy. Sit back take a breath and chill out. Actually I read with interest your thoughts and I find myself agreeing with you for a change (which is a little scary) but, I really think you have to ask yourself something. Is the story you're writing important to you and do you feel that' its something others need to read? Not want to read, but need to read. I make the distinction because every great book, hell even every good book, has something to say. Gene Roddenbury (sorry name spelled wrong) of Star Trek fame made it a point to create a story that he could comment on current events through his writing. Star Trek, need I say more. Even the old Godzilla movies were created as social commentary. My point is that YES, there are bad books out there and they get published and maybe even some people buy them, and you will never change that. But I firmly believe, seriously, that if you have something to say, and can figure out how to say it well, and believe 110% in yourself and your project you will succeed. Examples- Frank McCourt, Sly Stallone, The Beatles, ( turned down by a half dozen labels) Michael J. Fox, ( got one role made some cash bought a car didn't pay his taxes and was living on the street.) What I'm trying to say is that you have to want it really bad.. You can't take no for an answer... Hell of a pep talk, you think....
 

Don Allen

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Add another wet blanket. (I'm sorry, really I am.)

Yes, ambition, perseverence, and never-quit attitude count for a lot. These factors are part of the make-up of every successful author I've known personally. And frankly, some of them don't write as well as I do--but man, they were just driven to finish a book, get those queries out, and find an agent, driven in a way I apparently am not.

Not every kid who dreams of being the starting center for the Lakers, and who works really hard toward that goal, is going to make a college team, much less play pro. Working hard on your skills, and wanting it so much you devote a lot of effort to the dream, increase your odds, but in the end, you might still be a woman who's 5'4" who has no chance.

That doesn't mean you give up the dream of publication. It means you hone your skills to their absolute best, even if that takes a long, long time, and you look yourself in the eye with the knowledge that even if you never make it, you gave it everything you had. That in itself is honorable.

Maryn, honorable realist


You'll never win if you don't think you can, it's a fact of life.. A side note did Geist say I was full of crap?
 

Don Allen

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You'll never win if you don't think you can, it's a fact of life.. A side note did Geist say I was full of crap?


Actually I think he said I was old and full of crap... Okay I can deal with that..
 

Zoombie

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Did you just quote yourself? Isn't that like dividing by zero! If it is, be careful...you could kill us all!

And I didn't think he said you were full of crap. I'm pretty sure he was making sure that people know that you have to have some innate talent to write.
 
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