Does this hurt my hero?

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jodiodi

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I submitted some of my current novel to some contests for feedback (knowing I had no chance in hell of winning). Of the 5 or 6 contests I've heard back from, all of the judges agree that my style and premise are top notch. (Just gotta put that in--I so rarely have anything good to report about my writing since agents seem to reject me out of hand.)

Anyway, I've taken the consistent 'issues' into consideration and am working on them (need to make the hero less 'nice', add some conflict early on, etc.)

Still, one thing a couple of critiquers out of the 15 or so who've judged my work way confuses me a little. I see their point, but it doesn't seem right for the character.

The hero and heroine meet, she's confused, pissed off and scared. He's calm and takes care of her. They find each other attractive, but other considerations take precedence--like staying alive. Plus, they don't know each other that well and I just can't see them saying, "OMG, you're so gorgeous. Let's do it right here, right now!"

Anyway, the scene in question involves the hero having an interlude with a prostitute. He sees the heroine as someone under his protection and even though he finds her attractive, he doesn't want to abuse his position. Besides, he wants to get some information and knows the local brothels usually know all the people in town and their business. He's killing two birds with one stone, so to speak. At this point in the story, the h/h aren't in love or committed to each other; they're just traveling together and having lascivious thoughts about one another.

The judges said it might "hurt his hero status" if he has sex with another woman (or women). I say he's not 'saving himself' for the heroine. We eventually find out she had an affair earlier with his cousin (though she doesn't remember it), so it's not like she hasn't had other lovers too.

So what's the concensus? Can my hero 'spread the joy' before he and the heroine commit themselves to each other? Or do I need to make him use some self-restraint?
 

lrs

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My vote is a big no. If they have met and have known each other for awhile then no. Plus, you dont have to have them think each other is gorgeous, but you do need some sexual tension between the two of them right away. have you added that? Some good lust...sexual tension that grows into love, of course.
 

Sandy J

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Have to say, "No," as well. You might want a flawed hero, but remember the women who read romance often picture themselves in the heroine's dainty little shoes. Would you want a guy that goes to prostitutes? It's your story, however. Always remember that. :D
 

WackAMole

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IMO..the idea of a prostitute just kinda rings "icky" to me. Sleeping with someone who can give you info is cool...but the whole idea of "prostitute" kinda lends a dirty feel to his character..

What I mean is, if I was potentially interested in someone, I wouldn't be too keen to think highly of him if he slept with a prostitute.

This is just an opinion mind you! Maybe im just too fickle! :p
 

sunna

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It might make me go "hunh?", but I don't think it'd necessarily bring me to a screeching halt. Especially if he ends up thinking of her in the middle of the act and feels horribly guilty afterward. It could end up being a way to have him realize it's more than lust he's feeling for her (if this is the case at this point in the story, that is).
:shrugs: I like it when the good guys do slightly questionable things, though. It makes them more interesting to me. I don't know what the general consensus in this genre would be, so feel free to dump some salt over this response! :)
 

Sandy J

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It might make me go "hunh?", but I don't think it'd necessarily bring me to a screeching halt. Especially if he ends up thinking of her in the middle of the act and feels horribly guilty afterward. It could end up being a way to have him realize it's more than lust he's feeling for her (if this is the case at this point in the story, that is).
:shrugs: I like it when the good guys do slightly questionable things, though. It makes them more interesting to me. I don't know what the general consensus in this genre would be, so feel free to dump some salt over this response! :)

I just finished reading Hannah Howell's Beauty and the Beast. He has a pro in the beginnning of the book, and for some odd reason it p*ssed me off. :Shrug: And he hadn't even met the heroine yet. Just MHO.
 

Sassee

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He can go to the brothels for information without having to sleep with the women. Just imply he knows them from some point in his past. Maybe one of the prostitutes is a good friend from school, or maybe it's someone he had a relationship with before, like a friendly ex. It's generally accepted (and sometimes expected) to have promiscuous men as heroes, but the big difference is that they USED to be promiscuous and aren't like that anymore (or trying not to be like that).

You can keep the scene, just tweak it a little bit.

As far as the gross out factor... who wants to sleep with a guy who's possibly picked something up from a prostitute? Eww.
 
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If he's so wonderful why does he have to pay a woman? And if he's one of those handsome men who goes with prostitutes because he can, to 'use' them, then I can't believe any reader would fall in love with him the way you want the heroine to.

I'm not saying it would stop me reading the book but it would stop me having any respect for him and I'd hate the heroine for being stupid enough to fall for a man who goes with prossies.
 

Elodie-Caroline

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Hmm, if I were the heroine, I would prefer it that the hero done it with a prostitute, because sex is a bodily need, rather than him be in love/lust with somebody else. But if she really wants him and found out, I think she would be a tad jealous, and wondering if he might have picked something up... I'd make him go to the doc's before he touched me.


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Sex might be a bodily need but I'd respect a man more for having self-control. Women have needs too, it's not just men. No man 'has to' have sex.
 

Elodie-Caroline

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If they haven't made a play for one another and don't realize that the other is in love etc with them, then it doesn't really count does it. After all, they might never get it on together in the end anyway. But if each of them know that they have a thing for the other, then no, he shouldn't go with prossies, or anyone else.
Women always have BOB ;)

Sex might be a bodily need but I'd respect a man more for having self-control. Women have needs too, it's not just men. No man 'has to' have sex.
 

Ziljon

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You have your conflict right there! He goes to the brothel, he's terribly excited, she's oh-so-curvy and delightful, but he's never felt this way before (the way he does for the h) and something tells him not to "let loose the general."

You get conflict along with a some sexy tempting!
 

lrs

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Sounds more like erotica to me. Maybe market it as that, if the sex is steamy. I dont really read it, but i know their rules are different than romance.
 

Sandy J

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Sounds more like erotica to me. Maybe market it as that, if the sex is steamy. I dont really read it, but i know their rules are different than romance.


It's not my "thing" either, but you're probably right. There might be instances like this that would be more acceptable in that genre. Any erotica writers out there want to weigh in?
 

Cathy C

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I probably would find it annoying, and I'm pretty liberal about such things. It's one thing to have a one-night stand with a woman in a romance, but another thing entirely for the one-night stand to be a prostitute--necessary to the plot or not. Now, if the woman at the brothel was say, a former lover BEFORE she turned "pro" then it would make sense in a "coming to terms with his past" sort of way. But as it stands, I wouldn't buy it.
 

jodiodi

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Thanks for your comments. Here's how the story goes:

They meet and they don't have any idea 'true love' is in their future. He hasn't been with anyone in about a year since he started this mission/quest thing. When they are riding (before he got her her own horse), her tight, tempting bottom was right against him and both felt urges, but it was just lust. Now she's playing a bar-game with some ruffians throwing daggers (she hopes to beat them out of some gold). He wants a professional so he can scratch his itch and there won't be any emotional attachments from the female and he can find out what he wants to know. I took out actually going to the brothel, but have left the 'wench' in the story and she dry-humps him in the tavern (other 'wenches' are plying their trade openly) where it's so crowded, people don't really notice. However, he keeps his eyes on the heroine the whole time. The hooker knows it and encourages him to think about his 'lady' and how he can do things with the prostitute 'a gentleman dare not do with a lady.' When it's over (his kind doesn't 'spill' except with their mates), the heroine happens to catch his eye and he feels a little guilty. She teases him about his escapade later in the tub.

Since it's a fantasy set in an indeterminate place and time that exist only in the pages of a book (or so the heroine thinks at the time), and the hero can't get sick (not in the nature of his race), and all these crappy diseases don't exist in this world, getting the jack wasn't a consideration. I can take it out, but I honestly never thought of it as an issue until someone else brought it up. As a reader, I like heroes who have healthy appetites.

As for erotica, no. I've written that and this isn't it at all. I actually had to remember to put some sex in the book. I'm much more into bloody battles and such.
 

jodiodi

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OK; thanks to everyone. I'll take it out.

I never thought of it as problematic to the hero and these 2 judges were the first out of a large number who have read this same scene (it's gone through several different permutations and been read by critters as part of a larger work for a couple of years now) who ever mentioned it as a negative. To me it seemed quite natural for the setting and soccial structure of the world I built. Maybe I'm too jaded and such things don't faze me. But, if it won't fly with readers, it's cut.

Thanks again.
 

job

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she dry-humps him in the tavern ...people don't really notice. However, he keeps his eyes on the heroine the whole time. The hooker knows it and encourages him to think about his 'lady' ... , the heroine happens to catch his eye and he feels a little guilty. She teases him about his escapade later in the tub. .... As a reader, I like heroes who have healthy appetites.

Ah.

Well ... the important thing is to be true to your vision. If this is your story, tell it.


But you've asked how this is likely to strike the reader.

If this is S.F. it might work just fine.
I'm not a good judge of modern S.F./fantasy and it's a broad and varied field. A robust field.
It's one with lotsa male readership.
Men think about sex differently from women.
(jo reveals one of the great truths of the universe.)
So if this is s.f. -- Go with it.

If this is genre 'futuristic romance' or genre 'fantasy romance' (and not romantica) ... I have to admit I have my doubts.
Genre romance is written primarily for women.

Here is one woman's take ...

I (cough) would not be turned on by a man who dry humps women in public
(and presumably gets his trews sticky)
while looking at me and discussing me with the humpee.

At best it indicates a certain willingness on the hero's part to 'settle' for the nearest warm and slightly mobile perch. Not exactly flattering if I'm the next object of attention.

At worst ... I have to say this reminds me of those strange men in the subway who watch you from corners and rub their crotch.


Just one opinion, and it's not even on the scene as written but only on a summary of the general idea ...
 
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jodiodi

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Thank you for your candidness (is that a word?). Since it seems to be objectionable to so many, I'll take it out. As I said, I'm probably just jaded and way more liberal than the average romance reader. However, if the market demands certain conventions, then I'll just have to bend to them. I will always have the version with the scenes that likely aren't palatable to the audience, but it won't be the one I send out.

Thanks again for all your help and insight.

Going back into exile, now.
 
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job

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I think it's a matter of whose sexual fantasy is being played here.


Take the idea of an unattainable female and a hungry male


There's a male version --

You can't have the unattainable female so you grab a substitute and use that while you fantasize about the desired object.

Look who wins here ...
-- The male ends up satisfied.
--- The female desired is 'used', in a way, without her permission or cooperation. She is enjoyed, but has neither power nor enjoyment herself.
-- The female substitute is an object. Not desired, but handy.

This is s a very male way to think and desire. Very realiistic.
That's why this would be cool for S.F. which is still largely male readers.


But genre Romance is about female fantasies, not male fantasies.

So what's the female fantasy for this scenario?

The beautiful and unattainable female.
The man wants her and can't have her.

But the female fantasy depends upon him not satisfying himself with the nearest soft object.
If the female ain't getting any, the male's gotta not get any or not get anything good.

The female wins because she is desired and important and holds all the power.


So it's not the scenario as such ...
and it's not sex or who is doing what to whom.
It's that the fantasy that plays out
in a Romance
has to be a female fantasy.
 

MMcC

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You are right from a logical standpoint-- people in the real world may well behave this way and so what? But you're writing romance (I do, too) and the standards are supposed to conform to a love-fantasy mindset.

You could get away with it in another fiction genre, but I don't know many romance publishers who will shrug it off. What has surprised me more, having spent some time on the romantictimes.com message boards is how incredibly delicate the balance is with romance readers. They are picky as hell, incredibly unrealistic, and fickle. (I'm one of THEM, too, so I'm allowed to say so.)

Good luck with it and congrats on the kudos, even if they were conditional. :)
 

pepperlandgirl

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The problem is that romance readers are, by and large, very, very conservative. If you are targetting the NY houses, then yeah, you should probably take it out. If you're targeting an epublisher, you can probably leave it in. If you are thinking of marketing this book as a thriller/suspense/whatever and <I>not</I> primarily a romance, you can probably leave it in.

Or, leave it in anyway. I probably wouldn't take it out if I were you. We just sold a romance that literally has one of the characters having sex in a closet with another man before he goes off to the main love interest. Of course, this is m/m, and the main love interest practically insisted, and it makes sense on a story level. That's the key. For that story, and those characters, having sex in a closet was the absolutely right thing to do.

If an editor has a problem with that scene, but otherwise loves the book, then he/she will make suggestions on how to fix it. Any editor worth his/her salt wouldn't let a brief scene convince them not to buy an otherwise great book. Contest judges can't really tell you anything except what those specific contest judges like. You want to impress an editor. If you get feedback from people who are actually in charge of acquiring your book that the scene A)doesn't work and B)ruins the story, then by all means, take it out.

I guess what it comes down to is, if the scene is worth fighting for, fight for it. Don't let the rest of us dictate how you write your book. And hey, I've got a book with a hero who A)nearly rapes the heroine B)is cheating on his wife to be with the heroine C)kills lots of people because they annoy him and D)lots of other unsavory shit. I sold it and the reviewers all love it. So there you go.
 

JackieA

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The only way this would work for me, regardless of the fantasy background, is if one of the women was a personal friend, and he visited the house purely to get information. You can work the sensual tension into the scene with his observations. You can also create a lot of conflict here because the heroine assumes he's gone there for sex and so backs away from her growing emotions. Or perhaps discovering his visit to a brothel is the issue that has her acknowledging her devoloping emotions for the hero.
To include a sex scene with a prostitute for the sake of sex, would turn me off your hero.
Just my rambling two-ha'pth
 
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