Chariot, shank's mare or litter?

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BardSkye

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Would livery stables in 4BC Jerusalem have chariots or carts of some sort for hire?

I need to get my MC from Jerusalem to Bethlehem quickly, and in secret, as Herod's secret police will be searching for her. She's accompanied by a noble from the court so price isn't a big problem. It's very unlikely she would know how to ride a horse. She could walk, of course, though that would take some time.

I've tried Google but just get mostly present-day tour information about ancient Jerusalem.

Anyone know?
 

Anne Lyle

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I Googled "biblical times transportation" - you just have to be cunning with your search terms :)

Try this article:

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/SFS/an0805.asp

(scroll down to "Conveyances" and "Beasts of Burden").

My feeling would be that they would have to buy a couple of donkeys, or a donkey and cart, from a local - I've no idea if livery stables existed in this period. Donkeys aren't exactly hard to ride, but of course they don't go very fast either, but a horse-drawn cart would probably be too conspicuous, ditto a chariot - the latter would be a bit like leaving town in a Ferrari!

HTH

Anne
 

BardSkye

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Thanks for the link; I was using "ancient" rather than "biblical" for the search and getting nothing but modern tours of ancient ruins.

Donkeys sound like the way to go.
 

pdr

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I think perhaps...

livery stables as such would exist. People needed transport and transport was camel, or donkey, horse or mule and needed food and water and rest which meant livery stables.

By the way is Shank's mare an American expresssion? I only know it as Shanks' pony. (Shanks being plural for legs as in long shanks.)
 

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I'm not sure; I'm Canadian but spent many youthful summers with relatives in Vermont. I've heard it both ways, with "mare" used more often.

I don't think I've heard it at all in the West.
 

waylander

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My wife is from the west of Ireland and I've heard her family use it.
 

Captain Scarf

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You could try contacting the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Google their website, some of the lecturers have e-mail addresses.
 

Anne Lyle

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livery stables as such would exist. People needed transport and transport was camel, or donkey, horse or mule and needed food and water and rest which meant livery stables.

In a historical context, livery stables usually means somewhere that hires out horses (or other mounts), not a rest stop for mounts (which is what inns are for). Such a system relies on at least two stables in different locations (like Hobson's in London and Cambridge), with horses moving between the two. I have no idea if such a system were in operation in biblical Jerusalem, but my gut feeling is "probably not". I'm happy to be enlightened by evidence to the contrary, however :)
 

larocca

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Someone tell me what Shank's mare is and where it comes from. I encountered in a book I was editing today, and a quick Google convinced me the author used it correctly, but it's not a term I grew up hearing.

No, I'm not Thai. ;) I'm from Watha, North Carolina, population 98. Where going to Burgaw is "a trip to the big city," whether by Shank's mare or not.
 
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larocca

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Ol' Fashioned Girl, thanks for reminding me of the obvious. Michael Quinion, of course. His latest newsletter is in my mailbox.

Also, with this sincere expression of gratitude, I reach post #50 and get an Avatar!

:PartySmil

For the record, in the edit, I changed it to "walking" because I feel so few readers will know the phrase. But I let him keep "split the blanket," also a new one on me, because the context makes the meaning obvious.
 

pdr

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We are not...

cleverer or more long sighted than our ancestors. But most us of us do know less about travelling with animal transport.

I find it hard to believe that inns, livery stables and the travelling population of the time had not worked out a system of helping travellers to fresh mounts (at a price of course) and getting their own mounts back safely and from where ever they had been ridden or driven.
 

robeiae

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In a historical context, livery stables usually means somewhere that hires out horses (or other mounts), not a rest stop for mounts (which is what inns are for). Such a system relies on at least two stables in different locations (like Hobson's in London and Cambridge), with horses moving between the two. I have no idea if such a system were in operation in biblical Jerusalem, but my gut feeling is "probably not".
That would be my feeling, too. However, things could go along the lines of buying transport in one place, at which point the seller says "see my friend/cousin such-and-such when you get there and tell him I sold you these mounts; he will buy them for a fair price."
 

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In north Africa and the Middle East (and beyond) what they came up with by the Middle Ages was the caravanserai. I don't know how old the institution of the caravanserai is --- it may date only from the Islamic period, but there might be some kind of prototype earlier.
 

BardSkye

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Until Medievalist finds this thread, I'll give you this, from Michael Quinion and World of Words.

I confess I'm a bit surprised at this; I thought the term dated from the BC years and was Roman in origin. Don't know where I got that idea from, though and he's much more likely to be right.

My gut feeling would be that most larger towns in any civilization that used animal transport in a big way would have to have some form of livery stable. Merchants then, like merchants now, needed to transport their goods but wouldn't necessarily want the expense of keeping draft animals in between deliveries, even if they had the space. Inns normally had stabling for their patrons but made their money selling space for people, not animals. Even the wealthy might not want, or be allowed, to stable animals in the heart of the city, with all the attendant work, lost space, and mess. There would almost have to be one bright lad to put those points together and go into business renting draft or riding animals to those who didn't want to keep a full-time stable staff.
 

BardSkye

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You could try contacting the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Google their website, some of the lecturers have e-mail addresses.

I've sent an inquiry off to the staff of the Archaeology library asking if they know, or have suggestions on where I might look for information.
 

BardSkye

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... and apparently I would be wrong.

Heard back from a kind gentleman at the university who says as far as he knows there is no evidence of stables within the city in that time period. He did suggest checking within Josephus Flavius' "Antiquities" and the New Testament for any mentions.

Wouldn't I have looked silly if I'd just gone ahead without asking anyone?
 

pdr

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Goodness, gracious me!

So what are the Biblical references then to the difficulty of a camel going through the gate called the Eye of the Needle or the donkeys in the streets? Or finding the donkey tied up in the street? Or the Inn stable with an ox and ass and the babe lying in a manger?

Could animals go in and out but not stay overnight in the old part of city?
Were there places outside the walls where all animals were stabled - for a fat fee of course. Where did the Romans keep their nags?

I am boggling at the idea that the city was free of stables.
 

BardSkye

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Well, there would certainly be animals within the city transporting goods, but maybe space was at so much of a premium that none would be willingly spared for stabling, so they were shoved outside the walls with the other smelly industries.

The babe in the manger wouldn't count, as that wasn't in Jerusalem itself, but a small town nearby.

More research, starting with Josephus, I guess. If stables weren't allowed inside the city, it's a detail I want to put in, just because it's so unexpected.
 
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