PDA

View Full Version : Books to Believe In / Thornton Publishing



Ed Williams 3
12-15-2004, 01:30 AM
That should get this thread started....

CaoPaux
12-15-2004, 01:33 AM
nielsenhayden.com/makingl...tml#005922 (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005922.html#005922)

:eek

Kate St Amour
12-15-2004, 02:01 AM
Hey now; that looks suspiciously like a blog, unlike--umm-- the Bewares Board. Thank you CaoPaux.

Whachawant
12-15-2004, 02:03 AM
Thanks Ed... You beat me to it!

Cheers!

aka eraser
12-15-2004, 02:16 AM
OK. The formatting is in limbo and I think most links have joined it. I've deleted all the non-relevant posts (I hope).

----------------------------

James D Macdonald
I live here
Posts: 2586
(12/12/04 2:01 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del

Re: Linking it all back to PublishAmerica... I've been looking at the PublishAmerica thread How Did You Discover PA?

A depressing number of folks just Googled on "Book Publisher," came up with PA as the top hit, didn't bother to do any other research, submitted there first, and the rest is history.

But others ... I've looked at some of their prior publishing credits, and I found....

Profitable Publishing

All I can say is "Oh."

Oh, my.

Oh. My. Ghod.

Compared to those guys, PA probably does seem like a good deal. Compared to those guys, PA probably is.

I still wish that those authors had started their publisher search at the top rather than at the bottom of the heap. Just because you published with a bottom-feeder doesn't mean that you've written a bottom-feeding book.

I weep for the humanity.

Some Publishing Definitions


Whachawant
One of the
locals
Posts: 151
(12/12/04 5:26 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Linking it all back to PublishAmerica... That's a terrible site. Looks like it was designed by HB(check out his site. It's just as cheesy)... he classify's himself as an artist as well and supposedly does web sites. Got news for you HB... I would smoke you....

HB has NEVER been right. About anything.

---I agree FM---

He acts quite well as a counselor for P.A. Anyone with a problem, he is the first to step in and try to calm the storm.

underthecity
New friend
Posts: 48
(12/12/04 5:41 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Time for a chuckle. Thanks James for giving us the link to Profitable Publishing. I checked it out and was very surprised that the first page looked familiar.

underthecity

Edited by: underthecity at: 12/14/04 12:45 pm


XThe NavigatorX
One of the
locals
Posts: 274
(12/13/04 3:18 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Linking it all back to PublishAmerica... At least that other website attempts to sell its books on the front page of their site. PA's site is a giant commercial for themselves. Plus, they're the only (claiming to be) non-vanity publisher I know of that addresses potential authors in its tagline.



James D Macdonald
I live here
Posts: 2589
(12/13/04 11:18 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Hmmmmm.... The Profitable Publishing site has changed between yesterday and today. All I can say is that the change is one for the better.

Here's the Google cache of the old version.

Some Publishing Definitions

Edited by: James D Macdonald at: 12/13/04 11:33 am
HapiSofi
Board fanatic
Posts: 409
(12/13/04 11:33 am)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Hmmmmm.... Now there's an idea, Jim; you should periodically drop hints for publishers who want to look more legitimate. You've gotten these guys to focus their site on selling their books, not sucking in more authors. Next, you could idly mention how very reassuring it is to see that a publisher puts out a real catalogue. And so forth and so on ...

maestrowork
Resident Bug Chef
Posts: 5054
(12/13/04 11:46 am)
Reply | Edit | Del
ezSupporter
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: At One Time HB Was Right Ah, that's cruel, James. My eyes. My eyes.


XThe NavigatorX
One of the
locals
Posts: 275
(12/13/04 2:24 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Hmmmmm....

Quote:The Profitable Publishing site has changed between yesterday and today. All I can say is that the change is one for the better.

Wow. That's crazy. :rollin I wonder if the owner is a regular here.


AngelOnBoard
New friend
Posts: 1
(12/13/04 3:40 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Profitable Publishing Allow me to introduce myself. I am EJ Thornton and I am the owner of Profitable Publishing.

You have been criticizing my company on your blogs and when I traced the source of that, it seems you were mad at another publishing, not mine. You may have had contact with that other publishing company, but as far as I know, you've never done business with me, bought one of my books, interviewed me or any of my authors. You did a very brief scan of my website, made your determination and decided to criticize. I find this quite interesting.

Since you don't know who I am, I will tell you. I am the author of Angel On Board (www.AngelOnBoard.com) and the owner of Thornton Publishing, Inc. We publish 100+ books, four of which are my own. I started my company several years ago because I was a successful self-published author and many of my author acquaintances wanted to know what I did to get my book out there and encouraged me to create my own business and publish their books too. When I started I had 6 titles to my credit and they are all also doing quite well. If you want to see what my authors say about me, go to www.ProfitablePublishing.net/Testimonials.php

I did change the website since you started your campaign and I'll tell you why - because I could! My catalog was always listed on my main page, you just had to actually scroll down to see it. But this has afforded me the opportunity to get all my books out in front of hundreds of more people and I think they speak for themselves and I expect sales of these great books from this. Thank you! The website that will always contain my catalog and sub-catalogs is www.BooksToBelieveIn.com
Check it out, it changes frequently as I add titles.

I created the publishing company I wished I could have found. I do business differently than most others. It may work for you, it may not, but for those who like to see potential instead of negativity, it works well.

I only found this blog, because I was mentioned in it. I am not a regular here, but I will be monitoring it as long as it is appropriate.

I don't like to be backstabbed, so I'm letting you know - I'm right here. Talk to me, ask me questions - I'm happy to respond. I want you to go to the www.ProfitablePublishing.net website's archived page. I'm proud of my website and what I do to make this world a better place one book at a time!

EJ

Whachawant
One of the
locals
Posts: 152
(12/13/04 3:42 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post The poor mans copyright. Did that concept ever work? ....and is now no longer recognized..
Or was it somebody's silly idea?

Oh and EJ,...you were quick to clean up your site. It looks better.

Edited by: Whachawant at: 12/13/04 3:58 pm
RealityChuck
Board regular
Posts: 84
(12/13/04 3:59 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Linking it all back to PublishAmerica... Whatchawant: Never worked. Under the previous copyright law, you had to register your copyright in order to enforce it. You could have brought the letter in and produced it as exhibit A, and the judge would have asked, "Did you register the copyright?" If the answer was no, you'd have no case; if it was yes, the judge wouldn't care what you did with the manuscript.

AngelonBoard: Your current site make it looks like your business is to sell books to the public. That's a good thing.

The earlier one seemed to indicate your business was to sell publishing services to authors. The usual sign of a rip-off is that the promotional material is designed to get authors to buy their services and not to sell books to the public*. By making the change, you are divorcing yourself from the sleezy operators, so that's a good thing.

*They'll mention a book or two, but the big tip-off is a prominent request for manuscripts from authors. It's sort of like: Get published! Get published! Get Published! Oh, yeah, here are some books.

CaoPaux
One of the
locals
Posts: 174
(12/13/04 4:08 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: The poor mans copyright. IIRC, it had some validity before they revamped the copyright law back in 1973 (?). Old habits die hard, eh?

ETA: Make that the 1910's, but it's a useless relic, regardless.

CAO
-------
"I've never known any trouble that an hour's reading didn't assuage."
-- Charles DeSecondat
Edited by: CaoPaux at: 12/13/04 6:43 pm
AngelOnBoard
New friend
Posts: 2
(12/13/04 4:37 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Poor Man's Copyright Do you want a publisher's opinion on the poor man's copyright?

First of all, your book is protected by intellectual property laws as soon as it is in a 'tangible medium of expression.' So, print it, or save it on a disk - date it and take care of it.

But the poor man's copyright, where you send the copy to yourself and you don't open it until there is a legal challenge - there's a much better way!

If you're going to pay for the postage already - send it to your lawyer. He's got to date stamp when he received it and he'll put it in your file. Then when there's a challenge, guess who can provide the date evidence required! If you don't want to send it to your lawyer, send it to your accountant or your minister. They'll do the same thing and as an uninterested third party, they'll have to testify in court on your behalf! And, just for the record, if you plan on making a lot of money on your book, you'll probably need both a lawyer and an accountant, so the above is good practice anyway!

But send it on in to the Library of Congress and get your LCCN, because if you don't, the major bookstores won't take you seriously for shelf space and the major library services don't get their info from Bowker, they get their info from the the Libarary of Congress. So, if you want to sell to libraries, it is a must anyway.

Sorry, I didn't read the back-blog's on this, so I don't know what was said, but if you want a publisher's experience on whether or not you should get an LCCN - the answer is yes.

EJ

Kate St Amour
New friend
Posts: 17
(12/13/04 4:48 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Profitable Publishing Hello EJ.

<quote>You have been criticizing my company on your blogs and when I traced the source of that, it seems you were mad at another publishing, not mine. </quote>

Let me clarify for you: This site is about education and communication. This message board is a place for writers and writer advocates. No one is necessarily "mad" at any company, but we do utilize this space to communicate regarding suspicious business practices.
Now, I'm not altogether sure exactly who the "you" is in your post, but I am a PA author currently disputing several issues with my publisher. If you are curious about my stance, please read Publisher's Weekly. I'm quoted.

<quote>You may have had contact with that other publishing company, but as far as I know, you've never done business with me, bought one of my books, interviewed me or any of my authors. You did a very brief scan of my website, made your determination and decided to criticize. I find this quite interesting. </quote>

This is true. However, there were several facets to your site that were "red flags" to many of the advocates here. Your site looks nicer today, btw, and is much improved from yesterday. I encourage you to do more than monitor this board, but read through this and some of the other sections. There is a lot of great information here that benefits authors, publishers, editors, and agents. I haven't been around here long, but what I have found is a great sense of community, and a lot of career enhancing information.

~Kate



AngelOnBoard
New friend
Posts: 3
(12/13/04 4:52 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post If they'd've just looked... My business is to sell publishing contracts to authors - because I know how to make it work for them, because I did it first myself. I know there are alot of opportunistic firms out there that do that too, you're just going to have to judge for yourself. But I put my books on B&N, Amazon.com, www.BooksToBelieveIn.com and I put them out on 6 other places in cyber space and some of my guys have their owns sites. I wish someone would have at least scrolled down to the bottom of the first page to see all the books that I list ALL THE TIME! There are legitimate publishers out there - I call myself a partner-publisher, because most first time authors don't know how to market the books - and I show them. That's why they keep coming back. I appreciate this forum to explain my business, but truly, if this first guy had even scrolled down half a page, he'd have seen that I was selling my books not only to the public, but to book clubs, bookstores and libraries. I succeed when they succeed! That is how I designed my business - because I believe in the win/win!

EJ author of Angel On Board (www.AngelOnBoard.com)
Always keeping the author's point of view in mind!

vstrauss
Moderator
Posts: 614
(12/13/04 5:17 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Poor Man's Copyright >>If you're going to pay for the postage already - send it to your lawyer. He's got to date stamp when he received it and he'll put it in your file. Then when there's a challenge, guess who can provide the date evidence required!<<

They won't be able to provide anything unless the copyright has actually been registered--which is a prerequisite, in the USA, for filing an infringement suit. Sending your ms. to your lawyer or any other official person is no more useful than poor man's copyright in legal terms. It is NOT a substitute for registration.

As for providing evidence of completion, ownership, etc, authors can do this themselves by keeping computer records, drafts, and so on. A third party isn't necessary.

Save the postage.

- Victoria


Website: www.victoriastrauss.com
Writer Beware: www.writerbeware.com

maestrowork
Resident Bug Chef
Posts: 5061
(12/13/04 5:28 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
ezSupporter
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Copyright Just register it with the copyright office. It costs only $30. Is it really that much to protect your own asset?



Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- MLK
Zazopolis
Irate over the
lack of agitated
doofuses
Posts: 92
(12/13/04 5:30 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Linking it all back to PublishAmerica... That's a decent start to a night at the bar.

Give yourself a swirly at Bob's Web Toilet
James D Macdonald
I live here
Posts: 2596
(12/13/04 5:57 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: If they'd've just looked... A couple of things:

First, on Poor Man's Copyright, this is what John Savage (a lawyer who practices publishing law) says over at The Rumormill:

Ask Ann -- How to Spot the Scam Sharks in the Writing Waters

Message 74078 was left by John Savage on 2004-07-11 11:07:19. Feedback: 0/0

Subscribers to Speculations already know my opinion of the "poor man's copyright"; I covered it in "Caveat Scrivener" in Issue 47.

Bottom line: it's been over 95 years since the "poor man's copyright" had even a shred of validity. Any publisher who is promoting it as anything other than a waste of time and money is either so ignorant that I wouldn't do publishing business with it, or has an agenda that would keep me from doing business with it.

Second, in re "Profitable Publishing."

The name itself makes me suspicious. The phrase "My business is to sell publishing contracts to authors" is a red flag. A publisher's business is to sell copies of books to the general public. A publisher pays authors for the right to do so.

Please remember Yog's Law: Money flows toward the author.

Co-publishing, joint-venture publishing, subsidy publishing, vanity publishing -- they're all the same thing. They fall somewhere in that vast grey area between a Bad Idea and an Outright Scam.

Some Publishing Definitions

CaoPaux
One of the
locals
Posts: 175
(12/13/04 6:50 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: If they'd've just looked... Your business is to sell services to authors? And here I thought a publisher's business was to sell books to readers.

Here's a Profitable Publishing book: www.bookstobelievein.com/...eDevil.pdf

So, just how do you consider yourself better than PA?

CAO
-------


AngelOnBoard
New friend
Posts: 4
(12/13/04 7:35 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Publishers need author contracts I sell mine because I let the author keep their rights.

For those who think it is a bad idea - stay away, this business isn't for you. I don't have to prove you wrong. I call myself Profitable Publishing, because that is what it is - for everyone. Again, I believe in the win/win.

If you want to go another way - go and God Bless!

If you think there might be something to Profitable Publishing - check it out.

I sell thousands of books every year. But I teach my authors how to sell even more than that. Believe you, me, that is worth the price of admission!

www.ProfitablePublishing.net

EJ

CaoPaux
One of the
locals
Posts: 176
(12/13/04 7:48 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Publishers need author contracts

Quote:Believe you, me, that is worth the price of admission!


If you produced a quality product, perhaps.

So, what’s the verdict, folks…"gormless, but harmless" or "predatory"?

CAO
-------
"I've never known any trouble that an hour's reading didn't assuage."
-- Charles DeSecondat
AngelOnBoard
New friend
Posts: 5
(12/13/04 7:55 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Well I hope you'll dig deeper next time before you jump to a conclusion. It seems that you have a problem with people who help people self-publish (i.e. charge a publishing fee). If that's true, then you have a bias against the people who believe in their projects enough to self-publish. There weren't any red flags on my site, there were pre-conceived opinions of a way to do business. That is the problem I had with this whole discussion forum. I got lumped into some discussion about a publisher that I'd not heard of before or cared to find out more about.

The way I do books makes sense in this day and age.

Publishing books is 100% venture capital business - no guarantees - someone has to put up that money - either the author or the publisher or an investor. If you believe in yourself enough to pay to have your book published, then good for you! There should be no stigma attached to it. The people who publish through me are driven and want to maintain control of their project. I give them that opportunity. Their books are making the world a better place. My books are making the world a better place. They are quality projects and contain beautiful messages. Check out www.bookstobelievein.com!

Allow people to do their own thing - and keep your judgements, especially the uninformed ones, to yourself!

Don't spend money anywhere where you haven't done the research to make sure it is a good deal, that advice is in publishing, buying cars and even at the grocery store!

EJ - author of Angel On Board. www.angelonboard.com


AngelOnBoard
New friend
Posts: 6
(12/13/04 8:28 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Why don't you make your own decision instead of follow the crowd...

This has been an interesting experience.

I need to get back to my job now - that is selling tons of books.

For you CaoPaux, I'd suggest the book "What is Becoming Clearer To Me" - it'll be good for you.

www.bookstobelievein.com/...learer.htm

Happy Holidays...

EJ

CaoPaux
One of the
locals
Posts: 177
(12/13/04 8:47 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Why don't you make your own decision instead of follow www.bookstobelievein.com/...Sample.pdf

Nice sentiment, but needs editing, IMO.

ETA: The complaint is not against self-publishing. It is against taking folks' money for a sub-par product.

CAO
-------
"I've never known any trouble that an hour's reading didn't assuage."
-- Charles DeSecondat
Edited by: CaoPaux at: 12/13/04 8:54 pm


MacAl Stone
Mutant power
of making
glasses appear
half-full
Posts: 1377
(12/14/04 2:25 am)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: If they'd've just looked... Cao--I'm thinking gormless AND predatory...

-- Death to the Pig Lords! -- I dunno what it means exactly,
but it seems like a damn good idea.




AngelOnBoard
New friend
Posts: 7
(12/14/04 12:32 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post common webpage design Your comparison here is unfounded.

My webpage has a black background with colorful text, which stands out on the page. Guess what, not every website that has a black background is a copy of someone else's.

You guys need to be working on your writing of press releases or your media kit for when your book is in print.
Or join a writing club where people who have published their books and have success stories can be of inspiration to you, instead of lingering in cyberspace trying to figure out what is wrong with everyone else's process.

Web page changed again - check it out. I think it'll change again tomorrow, based on the recent activity. It is a golden opportunity to showcase what my company truly stands for. www.profitablepublishing.net





Stlight
New friend
Posts: 20
(12/14/04 12:48 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Profitable Publishing Out of curiosity I went to the site and checked the prices of the first two books in three categories. Point one, it would be nice if the prices were listed by the books on the page. I'm guessing they appear after you click add to cart. I clicked Amazon to check prices.
Fiction:
the angel book - the owner's I think - 254 pages @ 16.95
next book - 223 pages @ 14.95
Non-fiction:
206 pages @ 23.95
58 pages @14.95
Children's books:
46 pages - new & used @ 9.95
108 pages @ 10.95

Since I know nothing of the pricing of poetry books I did not check this section. What I do see in the ones I checked is a wide discrepancy. Why is a 254 page fiction book 16.95 and a 206 page non-fiction book 23.95? Pages are pages.

Stlight

DaveKuzminski
Board royalty
Posts: 1036
(12/14/04 12:57 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Publishers need author contracts It appears that it might be time to create a topic for ProfitablePublishing.Net

absolutewrite
Administrator
Posts: 1579
(12/14/04 1:02 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del
ezSupporter
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Publishers need author contracts

Quote:b elieve in yourself enough to pay to have your book published



EJ, I believe in myself to hold out for a legitimate book contract, wherein a publisher pays me tens of thousands of dollars for my work before it's even in print. I'm really tired of this rhetoric ("if you believe in your work, you'll pay to have it printed").

And EJ, you're making mighty large claims-- that you get your authors' books into stores, libraries, etc. and teach them how to market. Do you care to tell us what your authors' sales numbers look like or should we do the digging ourselves? Can I walk into my local store and find any of your authors' books?

Jenna Glatzer
Ed-in-Chief
Absolute Write
Author of Make a Real Living as a Freelance Writer and plenty of other books, too
AngelOnBoard
New friend
Posts: 8
(12/14/04 1:05 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post prices based on the book itself I don't follow a pricing formula. I look at each book and determine the price. The manufacture price is based on page count and materials, but the retail price is based on the value of the book and what the author wants.
They decide their own royalty. I suggest, but they control, that way everyone is happy.

And yes, they do sell at the prices we set and they sell very well.

EJ

HapiSofi
Board fanatic
Posts: 414
(12/14/04 1:15 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: prices based on the book itself Malarkey. They sell to the author's friends and relations. That'll be 70-75 copies on average. I doubt many of them have even hit the break-even point.

FM St George
Board fanatic
Posts: 413
(12/14/04 1:18 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post pulling it back to PA... funny, this is the SAME argument that PublishAmerica uses - that somehow they sell the books irregardless of the price...

after all, who wouldn't want to pay twenty bucks for an unknown author's first novel?

:rollin

HapiSofi
Board fanatic
Posts: 415
(12/14/04 1:21 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: Publishers need author contracts CaoPaux asked:

So, what’s the verdict, folks…"gormless, but harmless" or "predatory"?

My take? Might have once been gormless and idealistic, but is drifting into predation. She's got a business model where exploitive practices are the only ones that'll make money.

Dhewco
Board regular
Posts: 60
(12/14/04 1:23 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Selling to family I must be pathetic. I can't think of 70-75 friends and family, period. Whether they would buy my book or not. I supposed I could count the people in my church, but that's stretching it.

That's another reason I would never go vanity or self,subsidy...I would have no family to sell to.


David

Edited by: Dhewco at: 12/14/04 1:25 pm
AngelOnBoard
New friend
Posts: 9
(12/14/04 1:24 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post do whatever you want. If you believe in yourself long enough to hold out - good luck with that. That is your choice, your path and strictly your decision. But not everyone feels that way -I know I didn't! You do your fellow authors a disservice to talk them out of proceeding because of a decision you've made for your book. If there is one thing I've learned is that everyone takes a completely different path in this business. I don't want you to copy my path - you couldn't if you tried. And most successful authors would tell you that too. You have to find your own way. If you're not in print yet, then you aren't selling books, you don't understand the distribution channels or the supply chains - so you really can't comment on that from a point of experience. So don't!

I don't know where you live to tell you if you can find the books on the shelves or not. Take an ISBN off www.bookstobelievein.com and go to a bookstore and figure it out. You can get it from the web wherever you live, that's why the bookstore's links are included with the book. I won't even attempt to predict what you'll find at a bookstore, because I don't know whether you're going to a large giant or the neighborhood independent bookstore. I don't know if you're going to get a knowledgable salesclerk or a trainee. So, just go and test.

My authors and I are enjoying this process, it is a lot of fun. I took ten of them to a signing on Saturday and we sold 130 books. We had a blast! I meet my authors, I am part of their lives and I am one of their friends, because being in business with someone is so much more pleasant when you are. I'm not a huge conglomerate that is faceless and political, I'm a reasonably small press that has the ability to adapt rapidly to the marketplace and capitalize on it for the good of myself and all my authors!

But I can see you guys are operating under a ton of misconceptions. I do recommend you go to a writers group in your area and talk to people who are already in print and find out how hard a business this really is! If you really want to wait around until you get a big contract, there are people there who have already done such a thing - go learn from them - and figure out what works for you.

I've found that the more knowledgable they are in the book selling industry, the more they like my process. But that is my experience.

Go make your own experience and tell about it and help those who come after you.

EJ

CaoPaux
One of the
locals
Posts: 178
(12/14/04 1:24 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp New Post Re: prices based on the book itself In case y'all were wondering, this is what prompted the "blog" and "ten-foot pole" comments on her webpage: nielsenhayden.com/makingl...tml#005922

And I also vote for breaking this out into a separate topic.

CAO
-------
"I've never known any trouble that an hour's reading didn't assuage."
-- Charles DeSecondat

aka eraser
12-15-2004, 02:19 AM
I copied the relevant posts to yet another new thread. I'd like you folks to take up the discussion from there please.

I'm going to close this one. (Sorry Ed).

Risseybug
12-15-2004, 02:28 AM
Blah! I had a nice long reply all written up, and you closed the thread before I could get it up!

Damn, I'm not typing all that again.

Writers - you deserve better. Your work deserves better. Find a traditional publisher. If that doesn't work the first time, improve your writing and try again. Don't take the easy way out.

I guess that will have to do.

CaoPaux
12-15-2004, 02:37 AM
Relinking, just cuz I’m hyphenated that way…

A sample of PP fiction: www.bookstobelievein.com/...eDevil.pdf (http://www.bookstobelievein.com/AtOddsWithTheDevil.pdf)

The motivational book EJ recommended to me: www.bookstobelievein.com/...Sample.pdf (http://www.bookstobelievein.com/ClearerSample.pdf)

The commentary on Making Light: nielsenhayden.com/makingl...tml#005922 (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005922.html#005922)

My opinion of PP? So completely clueless as to be detrimental to its clients.

Kate Nepveu
12-15-2004, 02:56 AM
AngelOnBoard:
I don't know where you live to tell you if you can find the books on the shelves or not. Take an ISBN off www.bookstobelievein.com and go to a bookstore and figure it out.

Okay, I've taken the on-shelf challenge.

Methodology:

www.bordersstores.com (http://www.bordersstores.com/). Six stores picked from those within 100 miles of Albany, Chicago, and San Francisco (six is as many as they'll let you do at a time; I used three locations because I have three web browsers on this computer).

NY: Clifton Park, Albany, Saratoga Springs, Poughkeepsie, Farmington, Keene
IL: Chicago - State St., Oak Park, Evanston, Deerfield, Wheaton, Matteson
CA: San Francisco - Union Square, Emeryville, Union City, Fremont, Santa Cruz, Sunnyvale.

Start with the top books on http://www.bookstobelievein.com/. Search on ISBN on all three locations.

According to Borders' "Store Availability Definitions":
YES:
This title was in store as of the last inventory update. Store inventory information is updated once every 24 hours so it's possible that the availability of this item has changed.

NO:
This title is out of print or unavailable. If the item is a book, your local Borders store may be able to locate a used or out of print copy for you. Unfortunately we are unable to obtain out of print music, DVDs, videos, or audio books.

ORDER:
This title is temporarily out of stock or is not stocked at this store. Ordered items usually arrive within 1-6 weeks.

PRE-ORDER:
This title has not yet been published. Not yet published items can be pre-ordered and will be available when released for sale by the publisher or label (see publication date).

And the list:

1. A Boy, A Ship & A War, by Claud Aldrich, ISBN: 0-9670242-6-9
"Order" at all 18.

2. A Dolphin's Tale, by Richard R. Blake, ISBN: 0-9670242-3-4
"Order" at all 18.

3. A Weekend of Fun, by Christina Weimer, ISBN: 1-932344-72-1
No matches on ISBN or author or title.

4. Accounting Through The Eyes of Faith, by Jack Bower, CPA, ISBN: 0-9723309-0-9
"Order" at all 18.

5. Acquaintances with Integrity, by Sam Kegley, ISBN: 1-932344-05-5
"Order" at all 18.

6. Alanora's Magic Tree, by Alondra Mello, ISBN: 1-932344-77-2
No matches on ISBN or author or title.

7. Angel On Board, by EJ Thornton, ISBN: 1-932344-76-4
"Order" at all 18.

8. At Odds with the Devil, by Karen Watts, ISBN: 0-9670242-1-8
"Order" at all 18.

9. Atlantis Book I, by Travis Cole, ISBN: 0-9719597-9-X
"Order" at all 18.

(I admit I skipped here to the last Atlantis book):

10. Atlantis Book V, by Travis Cole, ISBN: 1-932344-10-1
"Order" at all 18.

11. Bartrob, by Inez Powell, ISBN: 1-932344-52-7
"Order" at all 18.

12. Basics of Profitable Publishing, by EJ Thornton, ISBN: 1-932344-50-0
"Order" at all 18.

A round dozen, and time to start skipping around on the list:

13. Carrotsville, by Diana Todd, ISBN: 1-932344-61-6
"Order" at all 18.

14. Fairy Ballerina Princess, by Leona Neighbour, ISBN: 1-932344-42-X
"Order" at all 18.

15. Health and the Domino Effect, by Sharon R. Price, Ph.D., CN, ISBN: 1-932344-55-1
"Order" at all 18.

16. I Am The Word, by Jamika J. Witherspoon, ISBN: 0-9719597-0-6
"Order" at all 18.

17. Little Airplane, by Joseph R. Weymon, ISBN: 0-9723309-9-2
"Order" at all 18.

18. Mastermind Memory Techniques, by Craig Mason, ISBN: 1-932344-59-4
"Order" at all 18.

19. Spirit Dancer, by Sharon Silva, ISBN: 1-932344-79-9
No matches on ISBN or author or title.

20. Touch of Christmas, by Lene Mumaugh, ISBN: 1-932344-19-5
"Order" at all 18.

In short: twenty books, not a single one on-shelf at 18 different stores in three states across the country.

Oh, and AngelOnBoard also said:
I've found that the more knowledgable they are in the book selling industry, the more they like my process.
Are you aware that Teresa Nielsen Hayden, who writes Making Light, is an editor at Tor Books? That Jim McDonald here makes a living writing more (terrific!) books than I can shake a stick at, with major houses? That . . . oh, you get the idea.

Stlight
12-15-2004, 03:17 AM
EJ

Knowing way more about V-POD or "self-publishing" or partner publishing or whatever you want to call it than I ever wanted or needed to know, I have a question. (No, it isn't about karma.)

When you publish one of your partner author books, how many free copies do you send to the author?

When you offer an author discount for the author to buy books (come now you must if you're giving them a marketing plan) how many copies do your authors have to buy in one lot to get that "author's discount"?

Stlight

Whachawant
12-15-2004, 03:22 AM
That's quite the detective work, Kate!

Hmmm! I don't see too many in store responses.

Perhaps we should track some of these, what say you James? What's that web site again?

Kate Nepveu
12-15-2004, 03:28 AM
Thanks, Whachawant, but it was really just a matter of cutting & pasting while I decompressed from something else.

(If I were *really* dedicated I'd check the whole list, but I do have other things to do, and I think the gist of the matter is pretty clear from those 20 books.)

HapiSofi
12-15-2004, 04:00 AM
Aw jeez, I just posted a long message to the wrong thread. Let me go get it ...

HapiSofi
12-15-2004, 04:12 AM
E.J. Thornton said:
If you believe in yourself long enough to hold out - good luck with that. That is your choice, your path and strictly your decision. But not everyone feels that way -I know I didn't!So you got rejected. It happens. Those who become successful authors tend to react to it by working on their writing.
You do your fellow authors a disservice to talk them out of proceeding because of a decision you've made for your book.You are wrong, mistaken, and barking up the wrong tree. I've never submitted a book to anyone in my life. My opinions are based on my knowledge of conventional publishing, and my familiarity with the sales pitches and realities of vanity PODs like your own.
If there is one thing I've learned is that everyone takes a completely different path in this business.Authors all take different paths. Successful publishers are somewhat less variable, since they have to take cognizance of real-world facts.
I don't want you to copy my path - you couldn't if you tried. And most successful authors would tell you that too. You have to find your own way.There are a number of paths to real publication. Ignoring them all, taking off into the underbrush, and winding up lost in a thorny bog is not "finding your own way." Your follies are your own concern. Our only interest is that you're doing your best to lure others into the bog along with you.
If you're not in print yet, then you aren't selling books, you don't understand the distribution channels or the supply chains - so you really can't comment on that from a point of experience. So don't!Oh, my. That's interesting. You think the only people who sell books are authors, and that they're the only ones who understand distribution channels. That is, you've never gone anywhere near legit publishing, or real bookselling and distribution. It's not part of your worldview at all.

Let's start with the basics: You don't know squat about distribution channels or supply chains. What the vanity/POD universe knows about distribution is that Ingram and sometimes Baker & Taylor are carelessly willing to sell copies of POD books to people who already want to buy them and will pay in advance, and that Amazon and B&N are willing to list books for sale on the same basis. What they know about production and supply chains is the phone number of Lightning. If they're especially sophisticated, they may know about the existence of short-run print & bind operations. That's nothing.

There's a world of people out there who've never written a book, but who know hugely more about distribution than you do. Ditto, people who know production and inventory. You don't know they exist because those people work for conventional publishing houses--you know, the ones that sell books and make money.

POD-people are forever whining about how the only books that get into the bookstores are the ones with huge promotional budgets. They're wrong. What those books have going for them (aside from "they don't suck") is real publishing organizations, real sales departments, and real distribution deals. You have no idea how those work. You should.

You've been doing this stuff for years now. You've had time to read a book or three on how publishing and distribution work. Failing to do so is folly in someone who's self-published. It's culpable negligence in someone who undertakes to publish other people's books.
I don't know where you live to tell you if you can find the books on the shelves or not. Take an ISBN off www.bookstobelievein.com and go to a bookstore and figure it out. You can get it from the web wherever you live, that's why the bookstore's links are included with the book. I won't even attempt to predict what you'll find at a bookstore, because I don't know whether you're going to a large giant or the neighborhood independent bookstore. I don't know if you're going to get a knowledgable salesclerk or a trainee. So, just go and test.Nope. Not gonna do it. I know the answer. As I said before, you don't have a sales force or a distribution deal. You don't take returns, either. (I'm not sure you know what they are.) And since you don't have those things, you also don't have your authors' books on bookstore shelves. There may be a few copies in a few stores, where your authors have talked the managers into it; but that's all.
My authors and I are enjoying this process, it is a lot of fun.Most FRPGs are.
I took ten of them to a signing on Saturday and we sold 130 books. We had a blast!Really no kidding how interesting. Where was the signing, who were the authors, and what books were being signed and sold?
I meet my authors, I am part of their lives and I am one of their friends, because being in business with someone is so much more pleasant when you are. I'm not a huge conglomerate that is faceless and political,Huge conglomerate, check. Impersonal, check. I already knew you'd never come into contact with a real publishing house; this just helps confirm it.
I'm a reasonably small press that has the ability to adapt rapidly to the marketplace and capitalize on it for the good of myself and all my authors!You're not a reasonably small press. You're a website, a printing connection, and a line of patter. As for your ability to adapt and capitalize on changes, let's start with a really obvious one: what are you doing about the Ingram reorganization, and how do you think the impending changes will affect your company?
But I can see you guys are operating under a ton of misconceptions.I'm sure it's consoling to think so.
I do recommend you go to a writers group in your area and talk to people who are already in print and find out how hard a business this really is!Come to New York sometime and I'll buy you a cup of coffee.

Have you noticed how many published authors there are in this forum? There are also professional editors; and if Andy Zack has wandered over this way, there's a real live agent.

Don't try to condescend to this group. It won't work.
If you really want to wait around until you get a big contract, there are people there who have already done such a thing - go learn from them - and figure out what works for you.You're arguing with people who've done exactly that, and you're not fooling them for a minute.
I've found that the more knowledgable they are in the book selling industry, the more they like my process.[SFX: Unkind laughter.] Honey, those guys you meet in bars who tell you sure, they can sell your books? You gotta stop falling for that.
But that is my experience. Go make your own experience and tell about it and help those who come after you.I have experience. I'm telling about it. And I'm helping those who come after by warning them not to go near your publishing business.

James D Macdonald
12-15-2004, 05:11 AM
Guys, Profitable Publishing isn't the Big Bad. They're just one among a thousand similar places. The only difference between them and all their brothers and sisters is that we've noticed it.

I mean, there they were, bumbling along with anywhere from zero to twenty-five page views a day, when all of a sudden they're mentioned here, and suddenly they have twelve hundred pageviews.

My personal opinion: Gormless. Helpless. Hopeless. I'm sorry for the authors who wind up with this or any of a hundred hundred others ... I remember another, a year or so ago, that had a far snazzier website (Flash animation, all kinds of bells and whistles) that claimed as their big selling point that unlike those snooty New York publishers they'd read every word of your submission.

They had a few books in their catalog.

Today, when I looked for their site, I got an Error 404.

What became of those books? What became of those authors? I don't know.

Were the books any good?

I don't know.

EJ says, If you really want to wait around until you get a big contract, there are people there who have already done such a thing - go learn from them - and figure out what works for you.

I'm that guy, EJ. I looked at your page, and it made me feel sad. Sad for you, sad for your authors. I could give you advice, but I don't know if you'd want to hear it. My advice to your authors is: Keep practicing your skills. Write, write more. Read. Then write.

Again, EJ says, You do your fellow authors a disservice to talk them out of proceeding because of a decision you've made for your book.

Alas, I feel my moral duty is to talk them out of proceeding with vanity publication. I hope you'll understand.

Kate St Amour
12-15-2004, 05:14 AM
**Moved from PA thread**

<quote>But I can see you guys are operating under a ton of misconceptions. I do recommend you go to a writers group in your area and talk to people who are already in print and find out how hard a business this really is! If you really want to wait around until you get a big contract, there are people there who have already done such a thing - go learn from them - and figure out what works for you.</quote>

Oh, my. Before you embarrass yourself further: James Macdonald's books can be found in just about every bookstore across the country, as can Jenna Glatzer's, AC Crispin's, and several other accomplished (even bestselling) authors here that do not post under their names.

LawShark
12-15-2004, 05:17 AM
Just a comment on the so-called "Poor Man's Copyright":

It's useless. And has been since 1909. That includes the ad that is currently running in writing magazines for the "service."

All of this nonsense comes from evidence law, not intellectual property law, as it was described in some really bad "inventors' guides" in the 1930s and 1940s. Until the reform of the Patent Act in the 1950s, it was very difficult (or impossible) to get regularly kept records, such as laboratory notebooks, admitted at the Patent Office to prove date of conception, date of reduction to practice, or the on-sale bar date. The Patent Act's reforms were later extended by implication (that is, not very clearly!) into the Federal Rules of Evidence. It is now routine to admit regularly kept business records, such as one's submission log, into evidence for the truth of the matters stated on those records. In any event, the copyright <s>scam artists</s> "businesspeople" interpreted the patent issues to also apply to copyright. Hint: the Copyright Act is in Title 17 of the U.S. Code; the Patent Act is in Title 35 of the U.S. Code; and, ordinarily, most related provisions in the U.S. Code appear in the same title.

In any event, there's another reason that "poor man's copyright" isn't helpful: One cannot sue on a copyright in the US without registration. The certificate of registration, on its face, provides all of the prima facie proof of conception (etc.) needed for a copyright claim. If things are getting more complex than that, the poor man's copyright won't be helpful in any event.

So, then, here's the bottom line:

Keep regular business records of completion and submission of works. In particular, keep copies of your cover letters, and preferably a CD-ROM that you've burned with the completed work as soon as you complete it. These business records will be admissible to show when you made a protectable expression.

Register your copyrights for material that is significantly at risk of infringement. (The details of THAT are not for this board!)

Ignore anything in between, especially if a third party tries to claim that you really, really need to pay for their service in order to protect your rights.

If you're dealing with Hollywood (TV or film), make sure you follow all of the "idea protection" rules... none of which are followed by a "poor man's copyright".

C.E. Petit, Esq.
www.authorslawyer.com (http://www.authorslawyer.com)

LawShark
12-15-2004, 05:18 AM
Just a comment on the so-called "Poor Man's Copyright":

It's useless. And has been since 1909. That includes the ad that is currently running in writing magazines for the "service."

All of this nonsense comes from evidence law, not intellectual property law, as it was described in some really bad "inventors' guides" in the 1930s and 1940s. Until the reform of the Patent Act in the 1950s, it was very difficult (or impossible) to get regularly kept records, such as laboratory notebooks, admitted at the Patent Office to prove date of conception, date of reduction to practice, or the on-sale bar date. The Patent Act's reforms were later extended by implication (that is, not very clearly!) into the Federal Rules of Evidence. It is now routine to admit regularly kept business records, such as one's submission log, into evidence for the truth of the matters stated on those records. In any event, the copyright <s>scam artists</s> "businesspeople" interpreted the patent issues to also apply to copyright. Hint: the Copyright Act is in Title 17 of the U.S. Code; the Patent Act is in Title 35 of the U.S. Code; and, ordinarily, most related provisions in the U.S. Code appear in the same title.

In any event, there's another reason that "poor man's copyright" isn't helpful: One cannot sue on a copyright in the US without registration. The certificate of registration, on its face, provides all of the prima facie proof of conception (etc.) needed for a copyright claim. If things are getting more complex than that, the poor man's copyright won't be helpful in any event.

So, then, here's the bottom line:

Keep regular business records of completion and submission of works. In particular, keep copies of your cover letters, and preferably a CD-ROM that you've burned with the completed work as soon as you complete it. These business records will be admissible to show when you made a protectable expression.

Register your copyrights for material that is significantly at risk of infringement. (The details of THAT are not for this board!)

Ignore anything in between, especially if a third party tries to claim that you really, really need to pay for their service in order to protect your rights.

If you're dealing with Hollywood (TV or film), make sure you follow all of the "idea protection" rules... none of which are followed by a "poor man's copyright".

C.E. Petit, Esq.
http://www.authorslawyer.com

CaoPaux
12-15-2004, 05:34 AM
*sneaks in cluebat behind Uncle Jim’s back*

Psst. EJ. Over here (http://www.bartleby.com/141/). And here (http://www.parapublishing.com/getpage.cfm?file=/homepage.html&user=#user). And here (http://www.websitetips.com/), too, while we’re at it.

HapiSofi
12-15-2004, 05:37 AM
James, I think you're suggesting that in a season of charity, I was not as charitable as I might have been.

Kate St Amour
12-15-2004, 05:52 AM
Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed post!

SRHowen
12-15-2004, 06:38 AM
Moved from the PA thread:


Have you noticed how many published authors there are in this forum? There are also professional editors; and if Andy Zack has wandered over this way, there's a real live agent.

Ahh, Hapi--Andy is here if you mean on the board, (though I did get an ez e-mail saying that they were on to me and that they thought it was a dirty trick to pretend to be my agent)(sigh) (people at times drive me bonkers) but I think he would stay out of this thread.(the PA one)

Shawn

HapiSofi
12-15-2004, 07:26 AM
SRH said:
Ahh, Hapi--Andy is here if you mean on the board, (though I did get an ez e-mail saying that they were on to me and that they thought it was a dirty trick to pretend to be my agent)(sigh) (people at times drive me bonkers) but I think he would stay out of this thread.(the PA one)They who?

They (whoever they are) think you and Andy Zack are the same person? How earless can they be? And how much trouble is it to feed "Andy Zack" into Google and find out that (a.) he's real, and (b.) sounds exactly like that person who's posting on the Bewares Board?

Not an opinion you have to care about, IMO.

SRHowen
12-15-2004, 07:38 AM
"they" the writer of the e-mail--stupid people.

Shawn

CaoPaux
12-15-2004, 08:00 AM
Wanna borrow my cluebat, Shawn? It's freshly waxed. :\

HapiSofi
12-15-2004, 09:43 AM
Jim, you're right. Profitable Publishing isn't the Big Bad. It's the Typical Gormless. It's nowhere near as evil as PublishAmerica, or Commonwealth, or Sterling House, or any of the other glaringly wicked examples we could cite.

I wish I knew how many hapless writers were taken in by the professional villains, and how many get stuck blundering and fumbling along in no-hope publishing programs, wasting their efforts trying to sell books that are always going to be 10%-15% short of publishable, instead of setting that book aside and writing another, better one.

I was wrathful with Ms. Thornton when I realized that her basic assumptions about the way the world works don't assume it's possible that your publisher will pay you for the right to publish your books, and will pay other people to go out and sell the things. She should know better. She should really know better. At the same time, I find myself wondering how far you'd have travel up the advice tree to get from her ears, to the mouth of someone who knows jack about publishing.

There are even moments when I find myself thinking that an awful lot of decent but unlovable books get written every year, and why not make their authors happy by running off a few hundred copies? If the book is truly good, someone will notice. It could be that the process would take no longer than submissions do now.

I'm sure there's something the matter with that view, but right now I can't remember what it is.

James D Macdonald
12-15-2004, 11:41 AM
If the book is truly good, someone will notice. It could be that the process would take no longer than submissions do now.

As you know, Bob, I read an awful lot of sample chapters from the Web. Some I try to steer to real editors.

One I still regret: A gent who wrote perfectly delightful stories. But he was looking for an "end run," a way to evade the gatekeepers -- even when I sent him the name of an editor in his genre who had bought first novels out of the slush in the past, and told him to mention my name in the cover letter, he wouldn't hear of it.

He went with PublishAmerica (it was called AmEricaHouse at the time, and all I knew about them was that there was a "Strongly not recommended" by their name at Preditors&Editors). I wrote, told him about what P&E said, and asked if it was too late to get out of their contract.

I guess that was when he cut me off his newsletter list. I suppose I could go look for his web page again.

-------------

A brief pause; I look at his web page. It's a ghost. No updates in a long time.

-------------


That was, I've since learned, back in the days when the AmEricaHouse contracts were for the duration of copyright.

That's a book that I'm sorry got away. It'll be off the market for a lot longer than the time submissions take.

--------------

Okay, I looked at his book on Amazon. Amazon sales rank 1,922,268. It's a $24.95 paperback for just under 300 pages (in other words, it's a normal novel length). Terrible cover.

Time out for some tooth-gnashing.

--------------

Writing is hard enough without having to push your way through barbed wire with concrete blocks tied to your boots. Sure, the naturals, the ones who wrote a dandy book first time out of the box, they might be found. What about the guys whose second book might have been good but who got tied in with some skanky place with the first book, the one that should have stayed in their desk drawer, ground down, spit out, and never returned to writing -- or if they did, didn't try to publish? What about them?

-------------

Here's a new year's resolution for all you editors out there. Put January aside to freakin' clear your slush pile. Send everyone who has a manuscript on your desk (or beside your desk, or stacked in boxes behind your desk) either a simple yes or no. If you don't have time to read it by Jan 31, send them a "no," and move on, and let them move on too.

-------------

Yeah, I know you aren't administering the Slush Olympics. Unfortunately for all us writers out here, entering the Slush Olympics is the best thing we have going for us. You see the alternative? Writers love their books.

-------------

Remember PA sneering at the writers who thought about actually getting published, "see you in two years"? You want to make Willem's words true or something?

-------------

Vanity presses, scam presses, are getting the same sort of help from the major publishers that the Baptists give to the bootleggers.

==========

That's all for right now.

absolutewrite
12-15-2004, 05:00 PM
Thanks to the two Kates-- first for the detective work (you saved me some time from having to pull up the exact same results for my local stores), and second for pointing out the "audience" to EJ. I suspect EJ thought I was being hopeful when I said I hold out for tens of thousands of dollars from publishers; I was not. I was stating a fact that has already happened, for me and for many others right here in this thread.

EJ, you're right: I'm not suggesting that everyone must follow my path. But I am strongly suggesting that if they're going to follow a path, mine is better than yours... no qualifiers needed. I make a living from my writing, I don't have to badger bookstore owners into stocking my titles, and thankfully, my knowledge of distribution/marketing is limited-- because my publishers take care of that. However, if you're honestly telling us that you think your books have acceptable bookstore presence, then my knowledge of distribution is a whole lot better than yours.

AngelOnBoard
12-16-2004, 12:12 AM
Sorry I’ve been missing for a while, I’ve been working my publishing business, placing some last minute Christmas items with my authors, bookstores and retail customers. This too is how I make my living and have for quite a while and plan to for the foreseeable future! I thoroughly enjoy my job, my business, my customers, my authors, their messages and my life!

Forgive me for stepping on all the hugely published authors’ toes. When I was drug into this conversation, it was about a POD publisher gone bad that you had the audacity to compare me to with zero knowledge about me specifically! Pardon me for assuming that you might be authors who were struggling with getting your books into print.

I’ve met many authors since I finished my book in 1998 and I know of many different types of publishing and publishing contracts. But I’ve met a ton who commercially published first, then turned to self-publishing because they knew they could do a better job with their next book. That is a VERY common thread. Authors aren’t just disgruntled with their POD publishers, some are upset with their commercial publishers too and want a much more personal touch. I’m an author who created the publishing company I wished I could’ve found, because I listened to the authors that came before me!

Many of my books have sold thousands of copies and the many of the ones that are only in the hundreds, are barely out of the gates and will be in the thousands by the end of first quarter. Check out Spirit Dancer, check out Living Well With Chronic Pain. Yes, some of my books will not get there, but they’ve gotten to the readership that my authors wanted. A Boy, A Ship and A War has brought a bunch of WWII Pacific war vets back together. If he didn’t sell another book, he’d still be thrilled, but guess what, his books are still selling.

I’d like to clarify another label that has been slapped on me that is invalid. I’m not a POD printer. I take returns and I stand behind EVERY book I print and publish. I take advantage of the digital press and can print between 1 and 10,000 books at a time (I’ll outsource any larger orders that come in). But I stand behind every single book out there. That makes me different and I think, better than most of the subsidy presses out there. I called myself POD for a while, until I understood what it was synonymous with to the bookstores and that was ‘no returns.’ I take returns. Let me be absolutely clear on that and at least one of you owes me an apology for going off on that subject!

If you want to know how whose books were sold at the group signing last weekend go to www.bookstobelievein.com/Colorado (http://www.bookstobelievein.com/Colorado) Those authors close to me get some added benefits. Photos will post to the net after Christmastime.

You are all prejudiced against the way I do business, and there is no reasoning with prejudice. My way will never work for you and your way will not work for me. That’s okay – enjoy your life. If we all agreed, the world would be a boring place. But I’m not going to tell anyone that your path is wrong, it just isn’t for me. I’d appreciate the same consideration! I think your ‘moral duty’ is to make this world a better place through telling these people what TO DO, and stop dwelling in the negative, telling them what not to do, because that just leaves them as confused as they were before. Create a solution, quit dwelling on the problems.

But you guys missed the greatest part of my contract. I don’t take their rights. They can make money with their books and still shop it to publishers with an actual sales track record. Tell me what other publisher allows that! I want them to succeed – and in a big way – and I will not be an obstacle to that. I encourage them to do that, but most of my authors don’t, because they like where they are. Some do, get rejected again, and come back telling me how much they appreciate what I do for them.

I get most of my business through repeat authors and referrals from my authors or from my students who get to meet me first. Even if you scared off all the internet traffic, I’d still triple in size by the end of next year, not just in books, but in book sales (which I think will actually quintuple based on my projections).

I’m not pounding on bookstore’s doors. I teach my authors how to created a demand for the books. The bookstores call me to request catalogs. I really like that! They know the books they buy will sell, they also know they’ll be able to return them if they don’t. They like that business model.

I don’t want them to follow the path I’ve taken. I did a lot of things wrong. I’ve created a way for them to be successful, by applying my experience to the process. It is always evolving? Yes! But even my authors take separate paths, even the same author will do things differently from book to book – know why? They’ve learned from the prior experience what works for them or this book has a different demographic and they’re forced to change their approach to get it to their target audience. I’ll advise, but they control.

Do I still have things to learn? Of course! Do you? Why yes, you do too!

I’m glad that your books are on the bookstore shelves, but I want my books on my people’s bookshelves.

I need to get back to work. And my website, books, business and authors will be here next year and the year after that and the year after that…

Happy Holidays,
EJ

Stlight
12-16-2004, 12:50 AM
That is interesting that you take returns. Do you do this for all your authors? Is this included in their initial fee or does it cost them extra to have their books made "returnable" and if so, how much?
I only ask because I've found a number of subsidiary publishers do say their books are returnable, but in the end it turns out that an author's books are returnable if the author puts up several hundred for the service.

Curious
Stlight

AngelOnBoard
12-16-2004, 03:14 AM
Hi EJ, one of my critique members sent this to me.
It's very interesting and just proves we're on the
right track. You might want to share it with your
other authors :-).

www.metrowestdailynews.co...leid=84518 (http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/artsCulture/view.bg?articleid=84518)

This article was sent to me by one of my up-and-coming authors who within less than one year has gotten two titles in print with me. The royalties she has seen has already surpassed what most first and second time authors would get in an advance check and we're just barely starting with her titles!

By the way, whoever went off on the 'return policy' issue - didn't bother to check. I offer a full return policy, which actually removes me from the POD category. I used to embrace that label, but the policies of the larger POD houses have created stigmas that don't apply to the way my publishing house works. So, I take advantage of the digital press, but I'm not a POD publisher.

Enjoy your days, I have to get back to work.

EJ

AngelOnBoard
12-16-2004, 03:22 AM
You guys are so synical and scared. I stand behind 100% of the books I publish. There are no extra fees and it doesn't cost the author extra.

There are some real pirates out there if that is what you're experiencing. I've always taken the returns because the people whom I respect in business have drilled that into my head. A business with integrity stands behind their product.

Authors can print from 1 to infinity copies with me. It doesn't take a quantity print to get special treatment. They get 10 free books and if they don't have extra money, I get them to sell those 10 and come back after they've kept that money aside to print 25, then 50, etc... Everyone that doesn't quit - will see their projects move from the red to the black with my company! Yes, everyone.

EJ

Whachawant
12-16-2004, 03:26 AM
I teach my authors how to created a demand for the books.

---Editing?---

Authors can print from 1 to infinity copies with me. It doesn't take a quantity print to get special treatment. They get 10 free books and if they don't have extra money, I get them to sell those 10 and come back after they've kept that money aside to print 25, then 50, etc... bla bla bla

---Slow down EJ... you're starting to sound like P.A. Your explanations are probably justified to you, I am a little undecided (not meant as an insult)---

You're spending way to much time on the board defending yourself and not enough time on " ...your website, books, authors...". Take your time.. and hey, prove us all wrong.

Beth Bernobich
12-16-2004, 03:29 AM
(This message was left blank)

vstrauss
12-16-2004, 07:11 AM
>>I don’t take their rights. They can make money with their books and still shop it to publishers with an actual sales track record. Tell me what other publisher allows that!<<

Tell me what (commercial) publisher would need to allow it.

If you're talking about fee-based POD publishers, most of the bigger companies have non-exclusive contracts that allow it.

- Victoria

DaveKuzminski
12-16-2004, 07:48 AM
EJ, I'm not cynical or scared. In fact, your site should now be listed on P&E. You can find the listing on both the New page and on the Books (P) page. The URL for P&E is anotherealm.com/prededitors (http://anotherealm.com/prededitors) in case you want to take a look.

AngelOnBoard
12-16-2004, 07:58 AM
I'm sure you never made a typo in an e-mail - pardon me! May those who've never sinned cast the first stone!

But you're right, I'm spending way too much time here.

I'm done.

I don't need to prove anyone wrong - that is a massive waste of time.

You guys are hugely prejudiced over the practices of some of the publisher and there's no way you'll ever believe anything I say because you're so jaded. I thought talking to you would at least tone you down - and it has, but you're still coming at me with all your barrels blazing because you're pissed at the process. I don't feel the need to take the heat anymore.

Oh and about authors royalty checks - sorry that's classified information, unless of course, you'd be willing to tell me how much you make. But then again, I still wouldn't tell you specifics out of respect for my authors.

Good luck with all your projects. Watch for mine on Oprah!

EJ www.angelonboard.com (http://www.angelonboard.com)

Dhewco
12-16-2004, 08:29 AM
>Good luck with all your projects. Watch for mine on Oprah>


This is a bit much! I'm thinking more like Springer or Povich, if they had a book club.


LOL. Actually, I'm only saying that because I don't think I've EVER seen a POD or a pay published book presented on Oprah.

Your authors could be fine talents, but I still don't believe she'd give them the time of day.

David

James D Macdonald
12-16-2004, 08:39 AM
LOL. Actually, I'm only saying that because I don't think I've EVER seen a POD or a pay published book presented on Oprah.

Whazzername, the Long Island Lolita, had her book out from iUniverse, and she was on Oprah.

Dhewco
12-16-2004, 08:54 AM
Are you talking about Amy Fisher? I'm sorry, but she doesn't really count. She was already famous before the book. I believe Oprah had her on because of her name. If Joe Q. was POD published, I really doubt he'd be on, no matter what it's about.


Just my two cents.


David

James D Macdonald
12-16-2004, 08:59 AM
They can make money with their books and still shop it to publishers with an actual sales track record. Tell me what other publisher allows that!

Two that allow it are iUniverse and AuthorHouse.

Kate St Amour
12-16-2004, 10:08 AM
"Whazzername, the Long Island Lolita, had her book out from iUniverse, and she was on Oprah"

Amy Fisher. Not only did I grow up near Amy, but her books (as opposed to my PA book) can be found at my local Borders here in the DC suburbs and they are available for order.

~Kate

maestrowork
12-16-2004, 10:36 AM
Amy is a rare case since she's a celebrity, and her book has built-in publicity because of her sensational background.

iUniverse does produce some books that sell so well they eventually went on store shelves or got picked up by a traditional publisher. But for every 1 of these books, there are tens of thousand that didn't make it.

AngelOnBoard
12-16-2004, 11:10 AM
Since none of you ever did business with me - and now you've catagorized me as a 'predator' - at what point does Freedom of speech become defamation of character?

I think Mr. MacDonald should be very interested in that answer.

Don't worry though, I'll get back to you on that. I'll ask my authors, there are lawyers among them.

If you haven't done business with me - you don't know me. If you had and had a gripe - that'd be different, but this business has gone way too far. Whoever posted that erroneous and inflamatory 'predator' remark post better go unpost it!

AnneMarble
12-16-2004, 11:31 AM
Since none of you ever did business with me - and now you've catagorized me as a 'predator' - at what point does Freedom of speech become defamation of character?

Did you go to Dave's site and read the entry? It does not classify you as a predator at all. The entry for your site says:
"Profitable Publishing: a subsidy publisher. A Division of Thornton Publishing." It also includes a link to your site. You can see it on the listing of publishers starting with the letter P at www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebp.htm (http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pebp.htm). You are listed on the same page as publishers ranging from Penguin (one of the nation's biggest publishers) to Prentice Hall (a major publisher of nonfiction and text books).

Also, you are not listed as one of the "Not recommended" publishers.

Before you become upset at being listed on the Preditors and Editors site, you have to understand what it actually is. You can read more at www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pubabout.htm (http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pubabout.htm). As it states on this page, it is a database listing publishers, editing services, magazines, etc. It is called "Preditors and Editors" because it does include warnings about some publishers (such as PublishAmerica). But many authors use it as a source to find publishers, whether they're looking for a regular publisher or a subsidy publishing service.

Oh, and if you want to list your site on a list of publishers, you might want to contact Piers Anthony, the author who created this list of Internet publishers (http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html). He's very fair -- most people on this board would say he's too fair as he lists vanity publishers without having an issue with their fees. :rolleyes He includes information like how much they charge (if there's a fee), what they publish, and reports from authors, both happy and upset. I guess you can ask to get listed just by clicking the "Email Us" link at the top of the page. I'm planning to submit a couple of e-publishers (non-vanity) I came across recently.

James D Macdonald
12-16-2004, 11:46 AM
I think Mr. MacDonald should be very interested in that answer.

What exactly do you mean by that, Angel?

maestrowork
12-16-2004, 11:56 AM
Someone still don't understand the "threatening" thing...

AngelOnBoard
12-16-2004, 12:04 PM
Do you think this has been fair to me AT ALL?

You picked my company out of thousands of other ones on the net and turned tons of people against me - saying I was worse than one you were really mad at. You got a bunch of people on your bandwagon and I've been nothing but maligned ever since.

Are you proud of this? Are you sorry?

What? You need to put a stop to this nonsense.

I stand behind my business, my practice, my authors, my books and my vision. If you don't share it that is fine, but you've got absolutely no business downing it, because you have absolutely no reference point with me or my business specifically!

So please admit, that you just don't know what it would be like to do business with me, because you NEVER have and maybe, just maybe, there is a subsidy publisher out there who might be different, dare I say better, than the others you've dealt with!

I want you to publically say that! I need you to get that makinglight woman to say the same thing!

EJ - don't call me Angel, I'm not an Angel, I write about them.

James D Macdonald
12-16-2004, 12:10 PM
Do you think this has been fair to me AT ALL?

I think I've been as fair to you as you deserve.

Perhaps fairer.

Count your blessings.

AngelOnBoard
12-16-2004, 12:19 PM
So, you're not sorry and you are proud of maligning someone you've never met, done business with or know anything about. Wow! Amazing. Predatory.

Bye!

James D Macdonald
12-16-2004, 12:44 PM
Absolutely. I'm not sorry. As I said, I feel it's my moral duty.

Don't worry. None of the people who saw your site in the last few days would have been your customers anyway. In a few days the furor will be over, the hits to your web page will drop off, and you'll be left in peace to collect $600 fees from more clueless authors who think that you're a publisher.

Don't imagine that I don't know anything about you.

AngelOnBoard
12-16-2004, 01:15 PM
Wow, a double negative - you must be a famous writer!

I DO think you've tried to specifically damage my reputation. I DO think you've tried very hard to ruin my credibility! I do think you've jaded potential customers against my business.

Do you really think you can speak for the many of website visitors I've had? I don't think they'll give you permission. I don't think you can read their minds. If they'd've come to my site without being prejudiced by this nonsense, I bet I'd've had a really good pass through percentage. I do track my visitors and I do keep those stats, so I am able to reasonably predict what revenue that would have brought in.

You can not assume to know what impact you've had - and I've done my best to counter it by constantly repeating that you do not know me or my business or my authors and you've NEVER bought a book from me.

My best customers are those who've met me know me, have done business with me, return and refer and those people return and refer. Those are credentials you can not even come close to challenging or even negating (and I do strongly suggest you stop trying to do damage).

If you think maligning businesses that you've never dealt with as your moral duty, I think you should redefine your moral duty.

Risseybug
12-16-2004, 06:24 PM
I'm sorry EJ, but none, I repeat NONE, of the people on this board that found your site would have been your customers. Why? Because we all know that one shouldn't pay to have one's work published. If it's not good enough to get picked up by a traditional publisher, then it needs work. So we work on it, and then get it published.

I am sure that your business has a certain place in the world of fiction, pay for publishing does. But don't try and pull the wool over the eyes of people who know better.

Personally, I don't want to have to market my own book. That's my publishers job. I'll show up for signings, I'll do readings, of course. But for me to have to actually market my own book... no thanks. They send out press releases.
Me, I want to sit back, write my next book and answer my fan mail.

You're not a predator - at least you're honest about the services you provide. But many people who are new to the world of publishing get this idea that paying to publish is the fast track to greatness. And it's not, especially if books are not edited by a professional.
I think that we're just trying to make sure that people know what they're getting into before they do.

I have a friend, she's a virtual friend. She paid to have her work published, I forget by who. I met her after she had set everything up. Anyway, she became very upset when she got her statement and she had only sold 16 books. The thing about it is, that her book was pretty good. It needed editing, but it had a good story to it. She should have stuck it out and tried to find a publisher - one that would have helped her out.

Ok, nuff rambling. I guess what I mean is that you put your business out to be the next big thing in publishing, when, sorry to say, I don't think it is.

DaveKuzminski
12-16-2004, 08:16 PM
In fact, many writers automatically assume that a publisher or agent is a predator if they're not listed on P&E. That's the impression I've formed based upon hundreds of emails asking why a particular publisher or agency wasn't listed. Those writers were certain that if something wasn't listed in P&E, then it must have been really bad.

If anything, I did you a favor by listing your site with P&E. How big of a favor, I don't know since I don't track hits or visits. I don't because I don't need the statistics because I don't sell advertising.

I must be a really good writer. I managed to use a triple negative. ;)

HapiSofi
12-16-2004, 09:05 PM
E. J. Thornton sayde:
Wow, a double negative - you must be a famous writer! And what did you spend your time doing, when you were supposedly getting through high school?

Since you bring up the subject of grammar, I recommend that you begin by picking up a copy of Strunk & White and reading it several times through. Your grammar, usage, and typing skills would be below par for a file clerk. For a more comprehensive introduction to English grammar, ESL (English as a Second Language) textbooks are surprisingly effective.

That said, let me explain the double negative.

1. Even if one believes that the double negative is infallibly an error (which it isn't), Jim's sentence, "Don't imagine that I don't know anything about you," wouldn't qualify as such. A real double negative would be something like, "I never said no such thing." As the theory would have it, the intended meaning is clearly negative, but the two negatives cancel each other out to produce a positive.

2. That theory is wrong anyway. The "rule" about two negatives canceling each other out to produce a positive was erroneously imported from mathematics, where it is infallibly correct, into English grammar, where it doesn't belong at all. The fact is, English has always used multiple negatives (as in the example above) as intensifiers. We all understand this on a gut level. "I never said any such thing" and "I said no such thing" are both negative statements, but "I never said no such thing" is emphatically negative.

(There's a famous quadruple-negative sentence in Chaucer that so overemphasizes the emphases that the meaning is reversed ironically; but that's professional-level grammar, not to be attempted at home by the inexperienced or unwary.)

3. Jim's not-inelegant sentence deliberately used two negatives to produce a positive, which English will do if used correctly. If you wanted to transform it into a positive statement, it would come out as something like, "Pray think it possible that I know more about you than you have hitherto imagined."

4. Pray think it possible that some number of us know more about you than you have hitherto imagined.

5. Jim is in fact a well-known author in the science fiction and fantasy field. Since I gather that you still haven't picked up the trick of Googling on the people you're talking to, I'll add that Ann Crispin and Victoria Strauss are also professional SF writers. I'm doubtless missing some others here present.

6. Let me reiterate: Strunk & White. A good ESL textbook. And a good dictionary wouldn't go amiss. Webster's 9th New Collegiate is reliable, and can easily be found used since the more dubious 10th came out.

Why am I telling you this? Aside from your misunderstanding the double negative:
I do think you've jaded potential customers against my business.
My best customers are those who've met me know me, have done business with me, return and refer and those people return and refer.
If you don't share it that is fine, but you've got absolutely no business downing it, because you have absolutely no reference point with me or my business specifically!
I’m not pounding on bookstore’s doors. I teach my authors how to created a demand for the books.And don't tell me that your language doesn't matter, not in this venue or in any other. You're in the communications business. Language always matters. Besides, I could pull dozens of examples this bad or worse from your own website, where it inarguably matters.

If you're determined to continue acting as a publisher, you really do need to address this problem. Your authors deserve better than to be embarrassed by you.

CaoPaux
12-16-2004, 11:47 PM
Your authors deserve better than to be embarrassed by you.
That’s my point, also. EJ, you have yet to address the poor editing and cover design of the books you produce. People are paying you money in good faith, but receiving products comparable to a scam publisher. How do you justify not presenting your authors in the best possible light?

RaechelHendersonMoon
12-17-2004, 12:34 AM
Hi EJ --

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Oh and about authors royalty checks - sorry that's classified information, unless of course, you'd be willing to tell me how much you make. But then again, I still wouldn't tell you specifics out of respect for my authors.<hr></blockquote>

That's perfectly understandable. I do not discuss specific titles when giving out sales information either, unless I have permission from my authors.

However, there are ways to give information about sales without discussing individual authors/titles. For an example please look at my <a href="http://www.eggplant-productions.com/journal/archive.asp?Month=7&Year=2004#315" target="_new">Journal Entry</a> in which I discuss number of titles sold in the second quarter of 2004. As an example how many titles for the third quarter of 2004 were sold a) directly from your website to customers (not including authors buying their own books) b) directly from your website to authors c) through any other vendor/distribution channel (i.e. Amazon.com, B&N.com, etc.). A total of all titles for the third quarter rounded to the nearest 1000 should suffice.

publishorperish
12-17-2004, 12:59 AM
HapiSofi, that was great! Thanks for a very good grammar lesson. Even if EJ doesn't take your advice regarding Strunk & White, I plan to. :D

Beth Bernobich
12-17-2004, 01:05 AM
Oh and about authors royalty checks - sorry that's classified information, unless of course, you'd be willing to tell me how much you make. But then again, I still wouldn't tell you specifics out of respect for my authors.

Is this directed at me?

EJ, I did not ask you how much your author earned in royalties. I asked how much you thought a typical first-time author would get for an advance. You were the one who claimed:

The royalties she has seen has already surpassed what most first and second time authors would get in an advance check

But that's a pretty vague statement, considering the range of advances offered for first novels. If I were trying to decide between self-publishing to traditional publishing, I'd want more details before I plunked down any cash. Naturally you can't give out specifics about income for a particular client, but you could us an idea of what you mean by "lots" and "more than." Did she sell hundred of copies? Thousands? Do you consider $5000 a typical advance or $500?

Whachawant
12-17-2004, 01:24 AM
EJ - don't call me Angel, I'm not an Angel, I write about them.

How can you write about something you've never done business with?

(Catch the reference,...?)

As far as the grammar mistake goes, it was just the irony of your dragged out explanations of professionalism,...(like I've said....RELAX) lol

Medievalist
12-17-2004, 04:15 AM
HapiSofi wrote:

<blockquote>
There are even moments when I find myself thinking that an awful lot of decent but unlovable books get written every year, and why not make their authors happy by running off a few hundred copies? If the book is truly good, someone will notice. It could be that the process would take no longer than submissions do now.
</blockquote>

Well, yes, and why not indeed make the authors happy by running off a few hundred copies. That's what printers do. Not publishers. Publishers perform a variety of other services, like vetting for quality, and editing.

The layout of the Profitable Publishing site is currently much much better, but the English is, well, a disaster. Lots of basic grammar errors, but also crimes against syntax, comma splices, sentence fragments, and prose that reads like it was written by someone who's the textual equivalent of tone deaf.

I know one of the authors, by the way, or rather know someone who knows someone, and so looked at a book. It looks to me like the text had been spell-checked, but not really proofed or edited. I noticed things like confusion with their and there, often a sign of over reliance on a spell check. There were problems with it's and its, a number of grammar and usage errors--things like subject/verb agreement and vague pronouns--and lots of punctuation and syntax problems.

The typesetting was non-existent. Lots and lots of rivers; it looks to me like a straight dump from a word processor file. No real pattern in terms of spacing and punctuation, broken ellipses, and unbalanced quotation marks.

This is not a Good Thing for a publisher. It's pretty bad even if the company in question sees themselves as primarily a printing service, and not a publishing service.

HapiSofi
12-17-2004, 10:16 AM
Scéla!

Seith Medievalist:
Well, yes, and why not indeed make the authors happy by running off a few hundred copies. That's what printers do. Not publishers. Publishers perform a variety of other services, like vetting for quality, and editing.Oh, I know. I've long thought that authors who want a few hundred copies would be better off finding to a nice print-and-bind operation. I was just having a momentary crisis of faith.
The layout of the Profitable Publishing site is currently much much better, but the English is, well, a disaster. Lots of basic grammar errors, but also crimes against syntax, comma splices, sentence fragments, and prose that reads like it was written by someone who's the textual equivalent of tone deaf.Earless. Yes. It's the website of someone who's not on hootchy-kootchy terms with the Muse of Language. That's a problem. Grammar can be learned, though it's easier when you're young; but no one's ever come up with a way to teach tone to the truly earless.
I know one of the authors, by the way, or rather know someone who knows someone, and so looked at a book. It looks to me like the text had been spell-checked, but not really proofed or edited.That's about as much as PublishAmerica does. The same can be said of most other operations of this sort. Running a spellchecker over a text is fast and easy, and doesn't require that the person doing it have the copyeditorial turn of mind. I know of plenty of subsidy houses that'll provide editing beyond that point if the author pays for it, but none that'll do it for free.
I noticed things like confusion with their and there, often a sign of over reliance on a spell check. There were problems with it's and its, a number of grammar and usage errors--things like subject/verb agreement and vague pronouns--and lots of punctuation and syntax problems.I spotted those too, along with swapped-out homophones and near-miss terminology.
The typesetting was non-existent. Lots and lots of rivers; it looks to me like a straight dump from a word processor file.Double spacing between sentences? Em-dashes that aren't? Oversized indents? Word processing programs always have default indentations as broad as your forefinger.
No real pattern in terms of spacing and punctuation, broken ellipses, and unbalanced quotation marks.If you never leave out milk and cookies for the Typography Fairy, all those things are going to be low-res objects in your eyes.
This is not a Good Thing for a publisher. It's pretty bad even if the company in question sees themselves as primarily a printing service, and not a publishing service.Yes, entirely yes. People can't reinvent bookmaking in isolation. They can only reinvent as much as they perceive of bookmaking.

I know an immaculate typographer, John D. Berry, who for a while edited U&lc. One night at a party he showed me a book of poetry he'd designed. I opened it at random and literally gasped out loud. It was more perfect than any other book I've ever seen -- so perfect that it hit me on a visceral level before my forebrain had time to register what I was seeing. Another friend standing nearby noticed my reaction, and leaned over to look at the type design. "Oh, yeah," he said politely. "That's really nice."

I once heard the head of a large publishing company casually assert that running heads are an unnecessary archaism, and can be dispensed with. But then, he also believed that if you tried hard enough, you could come up with an economical page design for a 6x9 hardcover that could be shot down for the mass-market edition, rather than having to be reset, and somehow have the shot-down type come out a readable size; so he clearly wasn't in the habit of leaving out milk and cookies for the Typography Fairy.

There are people in the world who naturally spend time fretting over (say) how to handle hyphenated compound adjectives when one element in the compound adjective is itself a hyphenated compound adjective, and the additional modifier applies to the compound adjective but not its component parts. While these people do tend to get involved in private publishing projects, they're always well-defined projects done in a scrupulous and finickal style. They never wind up overseeing production on projects that consist of throwing everyone into print, quickly and cheaply, who has $600 and a manuscript.

In fact, I think I'd argue that the enterprise of throwing everyone into print who has $600 and a manuscript can be spiritually sustained only if the person doing the throwing isn't looking too closely at the manuscripts that are going in, or the books that are coming out.

Gala
12-19-2004, 12:57 AM
Dear HapiSofi,

I knew John way back when I worked in typography in Seattle. I recall meeting him at Elliott Bay Book Company with other typographers. His talent was astounding.

Thanks for a sweet reminder. I shall look him up.

Gala

HapiSofi
12-19-2004, 03:14 AM
How nice to find someone else who knows him! Would that by any chance mean you also knew Loren MacGregor?

John D. won't recognize "HapiSofi." Tell him I imagine he can figure out who I am without a whole lot of trying.

Gala
12-19-2004, 09:56 AM
I don't recognize that name, but that doesn't mean we didn't meet.

I met John in late 80s or early nineties. In the former I was working at Aldus (now Adobe) and in the later I latched on to the Monotype dev team creating the first TrueType at Microsoft. I recall a sort of typographer users group that met occasionally. John had a gorgeous business card, as you can imagine, and the group had a publication.

I see John has a website. I'll drop him a line and let him know we're talking about him.

Whachawant
12-19-2004, 09:57 AM
Hey Hapisoft,

I think I'll pick up that book too... sounds good.

Looks like you scared 'IT' (EJ, angel, whatever) off the board with the powerfully stated explanations and grammar. You are very good.

Cheers
(p.s. this thread was a little dead for a while so I thought I'd see if I can spark it up by a simple posting) :rollin lol

AngelOnBoard
12-20-2004, 06:01 AM
I can write about angels when I haven't done business with them because it is called FICTION! Maybe if you'd visit www.AngelOnBoard.com (http://www.AngelOnBoard.com) you'd have figured that out! You might also figure out the gender of the author and the businessperson.

I hope you guys notice the changes to the website lately - I've put notes on the top such that the visitors remember to scroll to the bottom to see the books that have always been advertised on that page. Thank you for pointing out that people bring up that webpage and if they aren't directed where to go, they might miss important points. I've also switched up the www.BooksToBelieveIn.com (http://www.BooksToBelieveIn.com) website such that you see a couple of the most beautiful covers that I have. These were designed by professional graphic artists - if you don't like them, take it up with the author and the artist. I happen to think that they are awesome.

I will not probably return to this forum, it has fizzled. But I will be putting up several new web pages in the next few days to directly refute some of the ridiculous assumptions that have been proliferated on this and other like websites.

Don't forget, I'm an author first, if I wasn't selling books, then my books would also fail. What I want my books to be are flagships for those that come after mine.

Stay tuned to www.ProfitablePublishing.net (http://www.ProfitablePublishing.net) for the latest and greatest. Then bring it back it here to discuss unless perhaps, you've found something more useful to do.

Oh, and just for fun, since we've talked, one of my guys has gotten the attention of the Maury Povitch show. Stay tuned, I'll tell you when to watch.

I haven't been here for a while because I've had a lot more interesting things to do like - oh, let's see - BLINK and BREATHE - oh yeah and maybe run my business during the Christmas season (where books not publishing services usually sell best, although...)

I probably won't be back, unless you guys really miss the points and I feel the need to set the record straight.

EJ

Whachawant
12-20-2004, 07:17 AM
O.K. EJ ...apparently you're not intelligent enough to have a sense of humor. ....you should have figured out I'm just waiting to see how well your company does....

I'll just sit on the side lines and laugh while the pro's break down your company like the Berlin Wall....

Oh and I changed the gender ' mistake '...


*Merry ******* Christmas!*

Stlight
12-20-2004, 08:06 AM
Heaven knows I'm not a retailer, but I'm just wondering how impressed bookstores will be with a 120 day 100% return policy. Of course, I probably read that wrong, no doubt EJ has one policy for the buyers from the site, where 120 days is rather nice and, like the traditional publishers, an unlimited time for returns from bookstores.

Stlight

mysteryhost
12-20-2004, 08:45 AM
Hello Ellen,

Tell Rob that my tooth still hurts LOL. Just kidding.

It seems that you appreciate some of the constructive criticism here as you have taken their input and made changes to your web pages (which looks very nice btw).

But you are arguing with mainstream writers and that does not make sense. Some of the people here would undoubtedly be potential clients but your aggressive defense instead of an intelligent exchange tends to turn them off.

Perhaps you should present a business case for your services instead of an argument. Remember that most here would not use your approach to publishing and defending your stance will never be appropriate because we are already viable marketable authors.
That is the flaw in your defense. Target the others and make all responses flawlessly accurate even if it means saying, “You know, you are right, I may take that advice.” Or “Perhaps this program is not for you.”

You make some sense but your wares may be on the wrong shelf down this aisle.

MH

HapiSofi
12-20-2004, 12:17 PM
I can write about angels when I haven't done business with them because it is called FICTION! Maybe if you'd visit www.AngelOnBoard.com you'd have figured that out! You might also figure out the gender of the author and the businessperson.Don't count on them doing so. Your book is neither good enough nor bad enough to attract that much interest.
I hope you guys notice the changes to the website lately - For a while there I was following it by reading Making Light. Have you done anything new since ML stopped doing updates on the story? And instead of churning the site, why not do something truly useful and run a basic spellcheck on it? Maybe that way you wouldn't have things like a link labeled "Spiritual Peorty."
I've put notes on the top such that the visitors remember to scroll to the bottom to see the books that have always been advertised on that page. Thank you for pointing out that people bring up that webpage and if they aren't directed where to go, they might miss important points.I'm sorry, but did you imagine that the unusually large number of visitors to your site have come there to admire it, or to shop for your books? (I know about your site stats because you opted for the economy version of your visitor tracking system. It makes them universally viewable.)
I've also switched up the www.BooksToBelieveIn.com website such that you see a couple of the most beautiful covers that I have.They may be some of the most beautiful covers you have, but that doesn't mean they're up to snuff.
These were designed by professional graphic artists - That's the sense of "professional" that just means "they get paid for doing it."
if you don't like them, take it up with the author and the artist. I happen to think that they are awesome.That's because you're an amateur.

It's possible to be a real publisher while making do with inexpensive art. Just look at O'Reilly, which does a brilliant job with public-domain 19th C. black-and-white illustrations. However, that only works if good design work is being substituted for original commissioned art, and if the resulting covers are judged with a clear and unsentimental eye.

A few of your covers might pass muster at a small academic press. That's as good as they get. The rest look like real book covers about as much as a bunch of wildflowers in a coffee can looks like a professional floral arrangement.

The other reason that answer marks you as an amateur is that publishers always care how the public reacts to their covers. "Take it up with the artist and the author" is the voice of self-publishing speaking.
I will not probably return to this forum, it has fizzled.PA's been saying the same thing for more than a year now.
But I will be putting up several new web pages in the next few days to directly refute some of the ridiculous assumptions that have been proliferated on this and other like websites.Do you care about your authors' books, or is this whole publishing thing just a matter of opportunism on your part? People have been trying to tell you essential facts about publishing and how it works, and certain well-known problems of the publishing model you've adopted. All you've been able to hear is that you personally weren't being praised. I'm really starting to wonder whether you feel any responsibility for the success and well-being of your authors and their books,

If you're going to publish other people's work, you have to pay attention to objective external reality. Your response to most of what's been said here has amounted to "You've made your choices and I've made mine," as though that meant anything. It doesn't. It's just a new age-y way of saying "Oh yeah? Well, that's just your opinion." It's a formulation that will serve just as well for disastrous decisions as for good ones.

Please try to understand that this isn't about you. It's about your authors, their books, their readers, the continental printed-matter distribution systems, and other realities of the great wide world.

It must be reckoned one of the infelicities of your position, that even if you mean well and do the very best you can, your authors can't succeed. You've inveigled them into a publishing model that doesn't work. They may think you're being kind to them, as they rejoice in the simple idea of getting into print, but that's because they don't know any better--yet. I say it's unkind to sell them on the idea that they can make significant sales by getting out there and promoting their own books. A very few can, generally because they're selling nonfiction to a well-defined niche audience. No amount of auctorial self-promotion is going to make a success of a badly written and edited first novel, or poetry or short story collection, or personal memoir, or nondescript inspirational work--not when they have no proper sales or distribution, and their cover images and cover copy are awkward or inept.
Don't forget, I'm an author first,As though I could ever mistake you for anything else.
if I wasn't selling books, then my books would also fail. What I want my books to be are flagships for those that come after mine.Your own books have already failed. They aren't going to be flagships for anything. Taken purely as a writer, you're neither skillful nor charming. All you have to sell is your content. Unfortunately, you're ten or twelve years too late to catch the wave on the whole angels thing, and there's no shortage of ill-informed books about publishing and promoting one's own book.

When we tell you we've seen setups like yours before, one of the things we're talking about is your personal history of submission, followed by involuntary non-publication, followed by the launching of a hapless publishing company. There's about a zillion involuntarily unpublished authors out there who've done exactly the same thing you have. Usual outcome: Their companies never become both profitable and legitimate, and no one ever wants to buy the founder's book.
Stay tuned to www.ProfitablePublishing.net for the latest and greatest. Then bring it back it here to discuss unless perhaps, you've found something more useful to do.Speaking of useful, please do consider spellchecking your site.
(snip...)I probably won't be back, unless you guys really miss the points and I feel the need to set the record straight.Bit, you might want to swear off the schoolyard condescension routine until such time as you're no longer surviving on mercy alone.

arainsb123
12-27-2004, 06:57 AM
I can write about angels when I haven't done business with them because it is called FICTION! Maybe if you'd visit www.AngelOnBoard.com you'd have figured that out!

I'm pretty sure that Whachawant was using that statement to point out to you that just as you can write about angels without having done business with them, the pro writers on this board can see right through you without having done business with you.

Edit: I must also say, though, that Profitable Publishing isn't a scam; it's a bad idea, but not a scam. Should a writer go with them, his/her book will probably sell about 75 copies; my two iUniverse books' sales averaged out to 75 a piece.

I recommend that, if an author is determined to POD, that author find a publisher that will take returns and that doesn't accept everything that's sent in (such as Llumina Press, which can be found www.llumina.com).

Whachawant
12-27-2004, 01:20 PM
Very good %%WORD2%3, I'm glad someone can read me like a book.

Quite frankly, I have nothing against EJ, nor "her" company, but I will be researching and filing the actions of the company for future reference...which is what this thread and board are about. I just felt like lighting the mood......I guess I'm just misunderstood (sob) ...ah well ...life goes on...both for the just...and the crooked.

Cheers....

AngelOnBoard
12-27-2004, 02:01 PM
I'm so happy for you that after 6 days of no responses to your dissertation that a teenager understands you... (Anders Bruce Homepage of a teen author)

It doesn't matter if you 'watch' me or not. I'll do business as usual. It doesn't matter if I succeed or not, you're the type who will always find a way to criticize. When my authors and I make it on to Oprah or Maury or Leno, you won't say, "Gee, look at how well they did!" You'll still say, "I weep for humanity for celebrating authors who self-published."

I don't live to impress you or anyone on this forum.

So, I don't care if you watch. I don't care if you don't. You don't influence my business, except to watch you and collect the evidence I will use in a lawsuit if your unfounded insults and allegations go too far.

EJ

Risseybug
12-27-2004, 07:22 PM
Oh Geez, lighten up.
First of all, yes, Anders is a teenager, but after reading his material and his site, I think he speaks beyond his years. If I hadn't looked at his site, I wouldn't have known his age at all.

And, turning the tables, uh, ok, so a teenager GOT what she was saying and YOU didn't? Hmmmm...

If you make it on Oprah, I'll eat my hat. Scratch that. If you make it to Oprah's book club, I'll eat my hat. Not likely to happen. No offence, just the odds are against you. Heck, if I make it to Oprah I'll eat my hat. More likely, you'll see someone like James, Victoria or Jenn on Oprah before the rest of us.

Finally, please don't threaten us. We're not stupid. Nobody is saying you're a bad person, nobody's accusing you of cheating people (like another publisher). We're just critiquing your business model, b/c as it stands in the world today, POD, self-published books just don't have as good a chance as traditionally published ones. Why? B/C authors, by and large, DO NOT have the necessary contacts to market their book as successfully as traditional publishers.

If you look at it, hey, many small pubs don't have the same contacts that the big guys do. And POD falls in line behind them.
We're only saying that, once again, you're saying that you're the next big thing, that no matter what we say, your authors are going to be on the NYT Best seller list, and sorry, it just ain't gonna happen. Nature of the beast.

CaoPaux
12-28-2004, 12:01 AM
But how could Oprah resist promoting a fiction novel?

www.angelonboard.com/AOBMedia.php (http://www.angelonboard.com/AOBMedia.php)

arainsb123
12-28-2004, 01:00 AM
First of all, yes, Anders is a teenager, but after reading his material and his site, I think he speaks beyond his years. If I hadn't looked at his site, I wouldn't have known his age at all.

:D Wow. Thanks, Christine, I'm really touched! :)

James D Macdonald
12-28-2004, 01:13 AM
Profitable Publishing is a vanity press.

Authors would be well advised to stay away.

<HR>

I would have been quite content to let this discussion sink into obscurity, and let EJ's site return to obscurity with it. But since she wishes to revisit the question, let me explain in some detail how I found her site to start with, and why I reached the conclusion I did.

I was looking at the thread <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11226.htm" target="_new">How Did You Discover PA?</a> to find out how authors were coming to that particular vanity press. Most of the authors who responded there had never before been published by anyone; most of them found PA via Google. But one or two authors had previous publishing credits. I looked them up to see where they had been previously published, to see what comparisons they could make between other publishers and PublishAmerica.

One of the authors who had previous publishing experience was Margaret M. Meyers. Her previous book was Dreams and Visions of Assurance. Here's what I found when I went to Amazon.com to check on her book, its price, and her sales rank:

<BLOCKQUOTE>
# Paperback
# ISBN: 1932344179
# Average Customer Review: ***** based on 1 review.
# Amazon.com Sales Rank in Books: #2,512,149
</BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an absolutely dreadful sales rank. I further noticed that no publisher was listed, and no cover price was given. And I noticed that two used and new were available from $9.95. Clicking that link took me to "Seller: profitablepublishing" with the note "Comments: Printing new ones whenever they're ordered."

What kind of name Profitable Publishing? That's a bad sign -- like an email with the subject line "Make Money Fast!!!!!" It tells me that this publisher is marketing to hopeful authors, not to readers. And what's with "printing new ones whenever they're ordered"? That looks like someone with a Xerox machine in their basement.

I became interested in the publisher. Following links to Profitable Publishing at Amazon led to two other titles: The Granny Mystique (http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y03Y3110689Y3679526/102-0932241-4116917) with the notice "Seller's comments: Can print to order" and A Dolphin's Tale (http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y04Y3991951Y7206347/102-0932241-4116917) with "Seller's comments: Brand new books - made to order."

So off to Google I went, to find Profitable Publishing. And what I found there filled me with dismay. A garish, amateurish page, with incredibly poorly-written HTML (yes, I did look at the page source -- shall I make comments on the Meta-tags and on the misuse of graphics?), offering a "new paradigm in publishing." It looked to me like a very old paradigm indeed, and a bit of searching found the charges. $549, or $600 if divided into easy payments. I looked at the hype. I looked at the drivel. I made my determination.

There's a line in the sand -- it's called "The author pays." On one side of that line are the places where the publisher pays the author. Those are the good guys. On the other side of that line are the places where the author pays the publisher. Those are the vanity presses, right the way down to total scams.

So -- here's a book that's selling through an Amazon zShop? That's their marketing mode? And the charges put Profitable Publishing in the higher rank of the POD vanities.

That's why I made the comment I did -- which was quite a mild one, considering how bad a feeling I had about this publisher.

JohannaJ7
12-28-2004, 01:42 AM
When my authors and I make it on to Oprah or Maury or Leno, you won't say, "Gee, look at how well they did!" You'll still say, "I weep for humanity for celebrating authors who self-published."
If your authors make it on to Oprah, they will most likely start demanding large advances and move on to a real publisher.


So, I don't care if you watch. I don't care if you don't. You don't influence my business, except to watch you and collect the evidence I will use in a lawsuit if your unfounded insults and allegations go too far.
Heh.

"Mr. Lawyer? A bunch of respected writers and people in the publishing business criticised my subsidy press on the internet, and they suggested that I might be doing my authors a disservice! Look, it's right here on this ezboard! I want to sue them! Call the internet police!"

SimonSays
12-28-2004, 02:24 AM
The chances of ANY author - even a bestselling author getting on Oprah or Maury or TV period are very small. The chances of a self-published doing so are almost non-existent.

While deep down most probably foster dreams of sitting next to Jay Leno or making the bestseller list or getting a Pulitizer - they are nice tdreams to have but not very realistic.

If EJ has those dreams herself - then she is normal - but if she is encouraging her authors to seriously believe in those pie-in-the-sky dreams then she should be ashamed of herself.

As a publisher, even a vanity publisher - she should be realistic with her authors.

And if she truly believes in her writers - then when she comes across a really good manuscript with true potential - she would encourage the writer to continue to query agents and traditional publishers, so that the writer can have a shot at the success he or she deserves - instead of allowing the book to wallow in the depths of the amazon pod lists.

Whachawant
12-28-2004, 03:26 AM
---"I'm so happy for you that after 6 days of no responses to your dissertation that a teenager understands you... (Anders Bruce Homepage of a teen author)"---

Well I guess he's one up on you ...cause you sure as heck didn't....

---"You don't influence my business, except to watch you and collect the evidence I will use in a lawsuit if your unfounded insults and allegations go too far."----

BRING IT ON....(I've said nothing)

Frankly,.... people do influence your business, both myself and potential customers of your books.

I have noticed you've decided to single me out for some reason and not address the professionals questions with respectable answers. Take a Valium or something...it is the season of good cheer.

Besides that I'm still looking for your books in local book stores, for curiosity's sake. If I find one I like, I'll be sure and pick one up.........

HapiSofi
12-28-2004, 07:41 AM
This time, EJ said:
Re: Yep I'm so happy for you that after 6 days of no responses to your dissertation that a teenager understands you... (Anders Bruce Homepage of a teen author)You just keep barkin', mama.
It doesn't matter if you 'watch' me or not. I'll do business as usual.Okay. That answers my question, even though you didn't intend it that way. This really is all about you. You don't give a damn about your authors.

Read my lips. I'll speak slowly. Experienced publishing professionals, and some very well-informed amateurs, have been trying to explain to you that YOUR PUBLISHING MODEL ISN'T GOING TO WORK. But you don't care.

We wouldn't care either, if it were just your own books going down the drain. You're of age. If you want to spend your life flattering yourself, that's your right, and no one can stop you. We only care because you're dragging other authors into the swamp after you.

You've told those authors that you know what you're doing. You've told them they can make money. They've believed you. And as this forum has pointed out several times already, you're targeting writers who need money, and who can't afford to throw away $600 on your no-hope publishing program.

I asked you before whether you feel any responsibility for your authors and their books. You're making it clearer and clearer that you don't.

You're not a real author. You're not a real publisher, either. You're a cheap crook and a small-time grifter, and you're only going to get cheaper. I've seen career scammers with barely-average IQs pay more attention than you do, because they knew the information would help them tune up and polish their scams. You can't even be bothered to do that much.

I don't think you ever meant to run a real publishing operation. I think the entire point of your scam, aside from stealing from the poor, is to give support to your personal fantasies about your unsaleable books and nonexistent career.
It doesn't matter if I succeed or not,Tell that to your authors. It's only fair to warn them.
you're the type who will always find a way to criticize.No.

Have you been saying things like that all your life? Is that why you're such an astounding ignoramus? EJ, sometimes, when people tell you you're doing something wrong, it's because you're doing something wrong and they're trying to help you. If that doesn't concern you, then fine; stay stupid. Just leave all those other writers out of it.
When my authors and I make it on to Oprah or Maury or Leno, you won't say, "Gee, look at how well they did!" You'll still say, "I weep for humanity for celebrating authors who self-published."Get onto Oprah or Maury or Leno on the strength of your writing? Not in a million years, kiddo. Believing in yourself isn't enough. You also have to write books that people want to read. You don't. That's your whole problem.

One of your authors might make it onto Oprah or Leno, but only if they ditch you and sell their work to a real publisher.

If you do something sufficiently bizarre, you might make it onto one of those afternoon shows where the audience yells at you a lot. They still won't want to hear about your lousy books.
I don't live to impress you or anyone on this forum.That's too bad, because the thing that would impress us would be you becoming a better and more conscientious publisher. You've made it clear that you have no intention of doing that. I sincerely pity any author who takes up with you. PublishAmerica is a better deal.
So, I don't care if you watch. I don't care if you don't. You don't influence my business,Yeah. You're going to rip off your authors, screw up their careers, and waste their time and talent exactly as you please.
except to watch you and collect the evidence I will use in a lawsuit if your unfounded insults and allegations go too far.No, you won't. You may not care about truth, but the law does.

Besides, as I said earlier, you're a small-time grifter. You'll never have a lawyer working for you on anything but a contingency basis, and any lawyer who has the sense God gave a soda cracker is going to tell you "no thanks" and send you on your way.

DaveKuzminski
12-28-2004, 10:27 AM
And when it comes to getting on Oprah's program, Ann, Victoria, and James Macdonald have a far greater chance of doing so.

Ed Williams 3
12-28-2004, 09:47 PM
...and my only question is, how many more times is "EJ" going to tell us that it's the last time she's gonna respond to these posts?

;)

vstrauss
12-28-2004, 09:53 PM
>> And when it comes to getting on Oprah's program, Ann, Victoria, and James Macdonald have a far greater chance of doing so.<<

And unless our whole families get slaughtered by Christmas elves and stuffed in Christmas stockings and we write books that detail our personal triumph over that horrifying, yet essentially life-enhancing experience, that chance is nil.

- Victoria

aka eraser
12-28-2004, 11:39 PM
Thanks for my morning chuckle Victoria. :)

AnneMarble
12-29-2004, 01:11 AM
So -- here's a book that's selling through an Amazon zShop? That's their marketing mode?
Yikes! :eek Even PA authors at least get a proper listing with an "Add to Shopping Cart" button and all. I've seen a lot of Amazon pages for vanity press and so-called subsidy press books, but I've never seen one where the company model was selling through zShops.

Thanks for doing the detective work and pointing that out.

DaveKuzminski
12-29-2004, 08:54 AM
After I went through all that trouble to contract with a Christmas elf, he tells me the stockings were too small. Unless I find some that are large enough, he's refusing to take the contract. ;)

HapiSofi
12-30-2004, 03:55 AM
Dave, are you sure there aren't writers who'd agree to that, if they thought it would get them on Oprah?

James D Macdonald
12-30-2004, 05:12 AM
Tell the elf to get a meat grinder and a whole lot of stockings.

CaoPaux
12-30-2004, 05:35 AM
I'll donate a few in-laws to the cause. *koff*

Dhewco
12-30-2004, 09:13 PM
Well,

You could attempt to kill your lover (although, he/she will have to be someone unusual...younger, older, or famous), or your lover's wife/husband. Then you serve a couple years in prison, and then sell your tell-all book to PA.


David

reph
12-31-2004, 07:20 AM
...sell your tell-all book to PA.

Don't you mean buy it from them?

DaveKuzminski
12-31-2004, 07:44 AM
Nah, Reph, they'll give you a dollar advance that you get to keep.

I still think that every writer ought to send PA a manuscript... and then not buy any copies. The setup fees with Lightning Source should just about empty their pockets once enough non-selling manuscripts are accepted and published. That's without even taking into consideration the dollar they pay each author.

On top of that, you get access even to their private board and their email. What could be better than that, aside from seeing something unpublishable from your trunk get put out there, under an assumed name, of course?

Now if suggesting this doesn't get Willem, Larry, Miranda, CSI, and HB to vote for me as the individual PA most hates, then nothing will.

Now mind you, there's nothing illegal about this, either. They don't have to accept anything substandard. They don't have to apply proper editing and graphic artwork to what they publish. They don't have to push your work through aggressive marketing so that bookstores order it to stock on their shelves. And if they do accept something unpublishable, we don't have to purchase a single copy when they urge us to do so. After all, we have a right to expect our publisher to do right in the market.

vstrauss
12-31-2004, 10:29 AM
>> You could attempt to kill your lover (although, he/she will have to be someone unusual...younger, older, or famous), or your lover's wife/husband. Then you serve a couple years in prison, and then sell your tell-all book to PA.<<

No, in that case I'd sell it to iUniverse and change my name to Amy.

- Victoria

HapiSofi
12-31-2004, 10:52 AM
(Respectfully offers saucer of milk.)

Dhewco
12-31-2004, 11:33 AM
I want to apologize for my mispelling of Oprah's name. I had a severe headache that morning. Forgive me.



David


PS, Heh, you pay setup fees with iUniverse, don't you? You wouldn't exactly be selling it then. I said PA because at least they give you the dollar.

James D. Macdonald
07-13-2005, 08:31 PM
PS, Heh, you pay setup fees with iUniverse, don't you? You wouldn't exactly be selling it then. I said PA because at least they give you the dollar.

When that Amy sold her book to iUniverse she didn't pay the setup fee, and she got a 30,000 copy offset first run. Hardly a typical iUniverse author.

CaoPaux
04-06-2006, 08:51 PM
And now a blast from the past: http://www.profitablepublishing.net/

The only improvement I see? The site's colors are somewhat easier on the eyes.

CaoPaux
06-03-2008, 11:53 PM
Profitable Publishing is gone, replaced by anthor "division" of Thornton Publishing: Books to Believe In: http://bookstobelievein.com/

CaoPaux
12-24-2011, 09:20 AM
And now you, too, and be an Author-Entrepreneur: http://getting-published.com/

Katrina S. Forest
12-24-2011, 05:15 PM
Is this information available elsewhere?

Nope! We've looked far a wide and have found expensive bits and
pieces of this information elsewhere, but nowhere is it all in one,
complete package like it is here!

Yeah, because there's no helpful information on self-publishing in all the interwebs (http://www.sfwa.org/for-authors/writer-beware/pod/), and certainly no helpful forums where you could ask questions for free (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47).

CaoPaux
11-08-2013, 09:09 PM
Don't think we've got a live link for parent: http://thorntonpublishing.com/

Has a marketing blog now: http://bookstobelievein.wordpress.com/

CaoPaux
03-15-2016, 07:32 PM
And also Empower Publishing & Book Marketing Services http://empower-publishing.com/

ETA: which currently redirects to a Patreon page to support their promotion services. https://www.patreon.com/books

In '13, getting-published.com began to redirect to Book to Believe In, but now has a new owner.

thortonpublishing.com currently redirects to BtBI's blog site, after first redirecting to ejthorton.com.

Was also findabookforme.com, but that's gone entirely.