The Struggle for Turkey

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Bird of Prey

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Turkish PM defiant in face of army warning on secularism
2007-04-28 07:16:09.0

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan stood firm Saturday after the army warned it would act to defend Turkey's secular system amid fears that the country's next president would favour Islam.
The European Union, which Turkey is seeking to join, urged the army -- responsible for three past coups -- not to interfere in the democratic process as tensions mounted over the prospect of a former Islamist becoming head of state.
The army spoke out hours after parliament, dominated by Erdogan's AKP party, held an inconclusive first-round vote boycotted by the oppposition Friday to elect a new president, with Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul the sole candidate.
Saying it was "concerned" over the election, the army added, "It should not be forgotten that the Turkish armed forces are a party to this debate and staunch defenders of secularism.
"The Turkish armed forces... will openly and clearly display their position and attitude when necessary. No one should doubt this."
In his first, albeit oblique, reaction to the statement, Erdogan retorted that the nation would oppose actions that would hurt political stability.
"This nation has paid a heavy, painful price when the base of stability and confidence has been lost. But it no longer allows, nor will it allow, opportunists who are waiting and paving the way for a disaster," he said.
Speaking to the Turkish Red Crescent, he never referred directly to the army or its communique.
Immediately afterwards, he convened a meeting with Gul and some cabinet ministers, the CNN-Turk news channel reported.
The AKP's nomination of Gul has sharpened the divide between the government and the secularists who fear that the strict separation of state and religion will be eroded if he is elected.
Many remain unconvinced by AKP arguments that it has disawoved its Islamist past and fear the government will have a free hand to implement an Islamist agenda if the party seizes the presidency as well.
The Turkish armed forces, which see themselves as guardians of the secular system, seized power in 1960, 1971 and 1980 and forced the resignation in 1997 of the country's first Islamist prime minister, Necmettin Erbakan.
The main opposition Republican People's Party, which rejects the idea of a former Islamist becoming president, late Friday petitioned the Constitutional Court to cancel the first round of voting, citing violation of a quorum rule.
If the court annuls the vote, general elections -- currently scheduled for November 4 -- must be called within 90 days.
The Turkish press on Saturday urged early elections to prevent a deep crisis, as EU enlargement commissioner Olli Rehn advised the army to stay out of politics.
"This is a test case if the Turkish armed forces respect democratic secularism and the democratic arrangement of civil-military relations," he said in Brussels.
Erdogan's critics say he is abusing his nearly two-thirds parliamentary majority, garnered with only one third of the vote in the 2002 elections -- thanks to Turkey's much-criticized electoral system -- to put an Islamist in the hitherto secular presidency.
In Friday's vote, Gul fell 10 votes short of the two-thirds majority of 367 required in the first round of balloting.
If the Constitutional Court does not cancel the vote, parliament will hold a second round on Wednesday, probably with a similar result, but Gul is almost sure to be elected in the third round on May 9, when an absolute majority of 276 will suffice.
Dozens of non-governmental organizations have called for a rally in Istanbul Sunday to show their support for the secular system, similar to one in Ankara two weeks ago that attracted up to 1.5 million people, acording to some estimates.
The AKP was born out of Erbakan's party, banned for anti-secular activities the year after it was ousted from power, but argues that it has since evolved and is committed to the secular system.
Secularists cite its unsuccessful attempts to criminalise adultery, restrict alcohol sales and lift a ban on Islamic headscarves in government offices and universities as evidence that the party has not changed.
burs-han/sf/mb
Turkey-politics-vote
AFP 281205 GMT 04 07 COPYRIGHT 2002 Agence France-Presse. All rights reserved.
 
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SpookyWriter

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I posted this whole article because I think the background is important. I find the siding incredible, in that the European Union is urging the Turkish secularist military not to interfere with the election of a pro-Islam president.
Well sir, duh. I hated to say this, but most EU citizens and their respective governments aren't thrilled with Turkey joining the EU. So what better excuse would the EU have if their next government in Turkey isn't secular?

I say it's a win-win situation.
 

McDuff

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Why is it incredible that democrats should favour respecting the democratic will of the people even if we don't agree with what they decide? It's their choice, not ours.
 

McDuff

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I dunno, the EU might be trying something new. Look at it like a scientific test. The Euroweenies will try not fucking with an Islamic nation and the Americans can invade one. Who'll come out on top? Tune in to the exciting new reality tv show!
 

SpookyWriter

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I dunno, the EU might be trying something new. Look at it like a scientific test. The Euroweenies will try not fucking with an Islamic nation and the Americans can invade one. Who'll come out on top? Tune in to the exciting new reality tv show!
The litmus test is an historical one of the Ottoman empire invading Europa which is still on-going today but with migrate workers and not soldiers. The fear of Europeans, as you should know as a Brit, is that Turkey will flood the EU market with cheap products and labor. Yes? Now if they can export their religious beliefs so freely as a member state then who knows what will happen to the stability of Europa?
 

RumpleTumbler

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I was kicked in the head in Uskudar next to a mosque right by the Bosphorus for talking to a guy about Christianity so it's not all secular.
 

SpookyWriter

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I was kicked in the head in Uskudar next to a mosque right by the Bosphorus for talking to a guy about Christianity so it's not all secular.
Try that in Alabama but change the topic from Christianity to Islamic beliefs. I suspect you'll get the same reaction.

P.S. I can literally say I've driven from one end of Turkey to the other and never had any problems. I've spent enough time in Istanbul, Antalya, Ankara, and other cities to get a sense of the peoples. My overall impression of Turks is that they are giving, kind, considerate, sometimes too helpful, and eager to befriend strangers. I've had offers from complete strangers to come stay with them when I was travelling around the country. I even took a bus from Istanbul with my ex-Ukraine girlfriend and her mother to Marmaris and had a wonderful trip.
 
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SC Harrison

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*sigh* I can't believe I'm about to defend a military threatening its pseudo-Democratic government, but...

Kemal Ataturk and other secularists spent decades reforming their country after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, resisting Communism, Fascism, Monarchy and Theocracy to boot. To many Turks, the fear of losing representative government is very real, and the behavior of their current leaders is ominous.

For instance: Erdogan was booted out of the Parliament in 2002 for reading Islamic poetry in public which was a criminal offense (we can talk about that later :)), but his buddy Gul and others fiddled with the Constitution and allowed him to come back, and Gul stepped aside and let Erdogan back in the big seat (PM). So now, Erdogan nominates Gul as the only Presidential candidate, basically paving the way for possible huge reforms that could spin them back in time hundreds of years.

For those of you worried about a military coup, the Turkish Army has already done this at least three times in the last forty years or so, in order to maintain democracy. Looks like they might just have to do it again. ;)
 

RumpleTumbler

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Ataturk more or less was responsible for much of the liberalism in Turkey and yet he was very popular. No?
 

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Steve,

You are so right on the button. Very good response to the original OP's question.

Nice job, sir.
 

SC Harrison

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Ataturk more or less was responsible for much of the liberalism in Turkey and yet he was very popular. No?

Depends on who you ask. There was a lot of...unpleasantness during the battles to control the country after WWI, and many believe that Turkish nationalism in the early days is mainly responsible for the Kurdish problem of today.

But yes, he was (still is) very popular. :)
 

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Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (1881November 10, 1938) was an army officer, revolutionary statesman, dictator and the founder of the Republic of Turkey and its first President. Mustafa Kemal established himself as a successful military commander while serving as a division commander in the Battle of Gallipoli of World War I. Following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire at the hands of the Allies, and the subsequent plans for its partition, Mustafa Kemal led the Turkish national movement in what would become the Turkish War of Independence. His successful military campaigns led to the liberation of the country and the establishment of the Republic of Turkey. Mustafa Kemal implemented what are known as Atatürk's Reforms which led to sweeping changes in the political, economic and cultural sphere of the Kemalist state, striving to create a modern, democratic and secular state based on Western principles of governance.
 

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The litmus test is an historical one of the Ottoman empire invading Europa which is still on-going today but with migrate workers and not soldiers. The fear of Europeans, as you should know as a Brit, is that Turkey will flood the EU market with cheap products and labor. Yes? Now if they can export their religious beliefs so freely as a member state then who knows what will happen to the stability of Europa?
Oh for fuck's sake change the fucking record. This racial paranoia is just boring now. Sure, there are a bunch of racist whackjobs in the UK and France and Germany who fear that people with funny religions immigrating is going to destroy the world. There always are. It's what we do. If it's not the Jews it's the Hugenots or the Romany or the Chinese. If we don't have a wave of immigration to get upset about we just start taking it out on each other. Given how utterly fucking wrong racists in Europe have been about this in the past, I'm pretty sure I'm not going out on the most tenuous limb on the tree when I say we're probably safe this time too.
If history's anything to go by I'm about ten million times more likely to be killed by a White European Male who dislikes people who are different from him than I am by a Muslim. Even a really angry Muslim.

Can't you guys at least think of some other batshit insane theory about Europe's impending doom? The "OMG MUSLIMS ARE TAKING OVER EUROPE" thing is so tired.

They'll move here. We'll be all grumpy about it for a while. Then a new group will start moving in and we'll be grumpy about that too. Been there, done that. Really, really no big deal.
 

RumpleTumbler

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Anyone who needs a place to stay in the UK!

All are welcome at McDuff's!

It might be pissy for a while but before long Rodney King would be proud. :)
 

SpookyWriter

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They'll move here. We'll be all grumpy about it for a while. Then a new group will start moving in and we'll be grumpy about that too. Been there, done that. Really, really no big deal.
Yeah, and while I was living in London and other parts of the UK, this "oh no big deal was a big deal" as is the asylum seekers in the UK.

Gotta love the Brits. They complain about most everything. Don't like the Tories. Don't like EU weeeniees. Don't want to convert to the Euro. Don't like them fucking Poles who keep taking jobs. The council is taxing me ass off. Can't get a break on my taxes.
 

SpookyWriter

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In all seriousness, I cannot understand why the EU would be remotely interested in a pro-Islam Turkish president. I can't understand why it would comment at all. As was pointed out, the Turks went to a great deal of trouble in recent past to keep the government independent of polarizing religious forces.

Frankly, the EU should butt out.
Simply because this would justify there reluctance to accept Turkey into the EU. They are looking for an excuse. It's all about politics. Pretty much the same reasoning why the EU is skeptical about allowing Ukraine to join.
 

SpookyWriter

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But how is that an excuse, Spooky? You don't really think the EU is going to announce that because a Muslim is president, no deal, do you? I mean there's a substantial Muslim population in Europe.

And I disagree with McDuff that Muslim immigration is the same thing as the Chinese, etc. There is a very real terrorist threat ostensibly able to drift in with "low paid labor," with a goal of not murdering one but hundreds if not thousands. So, I don't think the fretting is entirely without merit.
I will say two things to address this question. Yes, I do expect the EU President and Parliament to veto Turkey's acceptance into the EU because of "Religious differences" should Turkey become a Muslim country. I make no bones about the fact that the Turkish immigration issue in Holland, England, Germany is a issue with the peoples of these countries.

I lived there and know how Dutch, English, and Germans feel about Turks coming to their country and not bothering to learn the language or integrate with the respective societies.

But we also have this problem in America. So the issue isn't just about Turks or Mexicans. No, there is a much bigger issue with the quality of life in the countries where people feel they must leave to find better opportunities they can't in their own countries.

Big issues can't be solved with narrow visionaries.
 

SpookyWriter

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Well I'm stunned. That's blatant declared discrimination. I just can't see how it will fly.
Don't shoot the messenger, please. I read enough of the EU exchanges while living in Holland and the UK to know how the winds blows.

Do a little research on the issue. I think you'll find the underlying issue with Turkey is clearly ambiguously spelled out.
 

Joe270

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Anyone who needs a place to stay in the UK!

All are welcome at McDuff's!

I thought McD was from Holland. No?

But we also have this problem in America. So the issue isn't just about Turks or Mexicans. No, there is a much bigger issue with the quality of life in the countries where people feel they must leave to find better opportunities they can't in their own countries.

I don't see the American immigration situation is as serious as the European problem. The central americans comming in to the US are predominantly christians with a hard work ethic and similar economic culture. In fact, the only problem I see is a paperwork issue (keep out the drug runners, murderers, criminals, etc.). The typical illegal mexican alien in the U.S., if given the chance, would fully indoctrinate into society in a few decades.

The poor muslim population in Europe, however, brings with it a religion which isn't a great match with capitalism. They also bring a culture of 'bakshiesh', something western capitalists equate with bribery, but it's part of their life. I see a long road before most muslims truly embrace their new country's language, culture, etc. Possibly they never will 'melt' into society.
 

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And I disagree with McDuff that Muslim immigration is the same thing as the Chinese, etc. There is a very real terrorist threat ostensibly able to drift in with "low paid labor," with a goal of not murdering one but hundreds if not thousands. So, I don't think the fretting is entirely without merit.
Well, Europe survived the IRA, ETA, November 17, Red Army Faction and that kind of thing. Are Islamic terrorists a problem? Sure. Are they more of a problem than the IRA? Not especially. Should we learn from our experiences in treating the Irish like shit and therefore keeping the groundswell of support for terrorism amongst the disenfranchised alive? I'd recommend it.

Rumpletumbler doesn't get to comment on Europe any more, he's on timeout.

Joe, I'm from England.

Also:
The poor muslim population in Europe, however, brings with it a religion which isn't a great match with capitalism. They also bring a culture of 'bakshiesh', something western capitalists equate with bribery, but it's part of their life. I see a long road before most muslims truly embrace their new country's language, culture, etc. Possibly they never will 'melt' into society.
Blah blah. Sorry, man, I've worked with plenty of first and second generation Muslims of varying degrees of religiosity and they're no kookier as a class than Catholics or Jews. If we can cope with people not working on Saturdays under any circumstances we can cope with prayer mat breaks. I've also lived in some rough parts of the UK and had more problems with white guys wearing baseball caps than I ever had with Muslims. I'm not saying that principally Muslim areas don't have more Muslims committing crimes (try the maths, it's easy to find a reason this might be the case), but it's not like they invented the concept of being a disenfranchised young man, is it?

Listen, I've got a friend who works in the history department at the local university. She's got a binder full of articles which are almost word for word the same as the kind of crap printed about Asylum Seekers, Poles or Muslims in the UK today -- from 1930, 1960, 1980, whenever you want, change the nouns and you've got the same kinds of claims from the same papers. Lest we forget, the rags that print this kind of nonsense tend to be the ones who were all "I *heart* Hitler" in 1932, mostly because he didn't like the damn Jews either.


Bird:

The EU's principle "near foreign" policy tool over the last ten years has been Enlargement: the carrot of access to one of the largest single markets in the world used to entice countries to reform their political processes. It's not perfect, but it has, so far, been so successful that it's started to scare a lot of the old guard. We enlarged too quickly, when all was said and done, to allow for the fact that we are still a continent full of racist asshats. We've now got a thing about Polish and Czech people over here taking jobs. Mainly, this is because we're getting all the hard-working, go getting Poles and they're kicking the shit out of the locals in terms of their work ethic, but it's a blip (if past immigration trends are anything to go on) and a substantial percentage of them will be returning home within the next ten years, so it will all even out in the medium-term.

Turkey's been in Englargement talks for decades, which means that the EU has had a very definite interest in the workings of the Turkish government. Interest in actually pushing for Turkey's entrance to the EU is waning on both sides of the agreement, with numbskulls like Chirac not entirely sure if we want to give Christian Carrots to Muslims and various people in Turkey seeing the slowdown in the EU and the growing anti-Islamic sentiment and wondering if it's worth it. I don't doubt Turkey will join the EU eventually, but it's much more of a longer term prospect now. This explains why the EU has an interest and why it's expected to have an opinion.

In this case, it sounds as if the various factors, on balance, have produced an official EU line in favour of democracy whatever the outcome, with the trust that Turkey can fix whatever problems it comes across internally. The Turkish military sorting out the government whenever it gets too weird is a system that probably works fine for Turkey, but it's not going to work in the context of the EU.
 

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Nice retort. Very well said and thought out. Yes, this issue with foreign workers is short term and was recognized by the EU before admitting many of the newer countries into the EU.

We've now got a thing about Polish and Czech people over here taking jobs. Mainly, this is because we're getting all the hard-working, go getting Poles and they're kicking the shit out of the locals in terms of their work ethic, but it's a blip (if past immigration trends are anything to go on) and a substantial percentage of them will be returning home within the next ten years, so it will all even out in the medium-term.

I have no doubt Turkey will make a fine addition to the EU. There are always going to be issues with immigration and work in Europa that will need special attention by the EU councils. But it's not so difficult to work with countries whom you've had previous success with for a long period of time.
 
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