Blacklisting PA Authors?

jchines

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So over at the Rumor Mill, it's come up that a small publisher will automatically reject any author who has a book out with Publish America. I know a PA book isn't a valid publishing credit to include in a cover letter, but the publisher in question talks about researching the authors' web sites and rejecting them if they have a PA book listed on their site.

Now I'm as eager to bury PA as a scam as the next person, but this struck me as wrong on a number of levels. Mostly, I have serious problems with punishing the victim, especially a victim who isn't sending their next book to PA, but is instead aiming higher. But the person in question insists that other publishers and agents blacklist PA authors as well ... even if they don't have the courage to announce it.

So I'm curious. Those of you who work as editors or agents, would you blacklist authors who have a book with Publish America? To everyone, have you ever heard of a legitimate publisher or agent doing this?

On the flip side, does anyone know of Publish America authors who have gone on to sell to legitimate publishers despite their PA-tarnished past?
 

MMcC

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Well, in a way, if you think about it... the only way an editor or agent looking over a submission would KNOW the author was a former PA victim would be if he or she said so in their materials. In other words, it would have to be a freely offered piece of information.

If I were an editor and somebody submitted a packet to me-- cover letter, samples, etc-- that included PA as a credit, I would slush pile the submission. I know that sounds mean and unfair, but editors have to plow through a LOT of stuff, and an author who was unaware of how bad that looks would not be one I'd want to give any time investment.

I doubt anyone is googling authors to check on them in order to ban them for ANY past associations. But if somebody is clueless enough to submit and list a PA publication? Yeah, they probably DO shrug those people off.
 

Fiendish Writer

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I doubt anyone is googling authors to check on them in order to ban them for ANY past associations.

If you follow the link Jim gave, you will see that one publisher *is* googling authors to check for PA in their past.
 

veinglory

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Indeed. And the odds are that a PA publication would be indellible on the web unless the author used a pen name for it that they later changed--which might be a wise precaution.
 

jchines

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Including PA as a credit in a cover letter would definitely make me cringe, if I were ever crazy enough to become an editor :tongue

But like Fiendish Writer said, this publisher is talking about Googling the author and rejecting anyone who simply includes a PA novel on their web site.
 

Unimportant

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The Rumor Mill post read to me like this publisher actively seeks out archived information on Google about old PA books even if the author has got away from PA, moved on, and deleted all mention of the book from his website. While many agents and editors don't want to deal with an author who brags about their PA book, this particular publisher is the only person I've ever heard of who blackballs all ex-PA authors no matter what.
 

job

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Could there be some contract problems that might arise from a former association with PA?
 

AnnieColleen

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and deleted all mention of the book from his website.

It seemed like the concern was that, if this publisher accepted a new book from an ex-PA author, the new book and the PA book would appear together on the author's website and give the appearance of the publisher condoning PA. The door seemed to be open at least a crack for authors where that wasn't the case (had rights back, didn't have the PA book on the author's website). But it wasn't very clear!
 

Saundra Julian

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What an idiot!
Blame PA not the author who got scammed! Geez, the nerve of some "holier than thou" people.
 

VGrossack

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Could there be some contract problems that might arise from a former association with PA?

Probably only if you haven't really gotten rid of the contract. I would not worry about having had a PA contract for a book in the past; it's not an advantage, but it doesn't mean that you're blackballed. My book that was with PA in the past is currently with my (reputable) agent; I know that it has been looked at by (very reputable) publishing houses. If they don't take it, it won't be because it was with PA in the past but because it doesn't suit their current needs or desires. But they certainly didn't blackball it because it was previously with PA, or, at least, I've not received any feedback from my agent like this.

On the other hand, when it was with PA there was more than one place that refused to even review it because of the way other PA authors had behaved when receiving unfavorable reviews.
 

jchines

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Victoria - if you were trying to market the same book you sold to PA, having it under contract with PA would definitely be a problem. But if you've written a new book and are trying to sell that, I'm still not understanding why an old PA novel should be held against you.

Best of luck getting a better home for your book, by the way!

Annie - the conversation at the Mill is ongoing, and the publisher has clarified his position a bit. You're right, he seems quite worried about the possibility of his books appearing on the same page as a PA novel. But I'm not understanding how that translates into them condoning PA, or how it could hurt them by association. It's possible I'm just clueless and naive when it comes to business, I guess.
 

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If we're talking about the publisher I think we're talking about - it isn't limited to PA. XLibris and iUniverse were also mentioned.

Personally, I don't think it's a fair policy, even if the author in question doesn't know enough to know a vanity, or self-published, credit isn't a credit at all. I know editors and agents have to go through a lot of slush, but if they are googling archives and the like, that's an awful lot of effort just to reject someone. Just because someone became entangled in the PA web is no reason to hold it against them years later, after they learned the lousy, bitter lesson. Besides, I thought it was about the merit of the writing?

Just my humble opinion :)
 

AnnieColleen

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But I'm not understanding how that translates into them condoning PA, or how it could hurt them by association. It's possible I'm just clueless and naive when it comes to business, I guess.


I don't get it either! (But then I know I'm pretty clueless still about business.)
 

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Victoria - if you were trying to market the same book you sold to PA, having it under contract with PA would definitely be a problem. But if you've written a new book and are trying to sell that, I'm still not understanding why an old PA novel should be held against you.

It's the same book. But we are out of the PA contract.

And we have new books, too...
 

Pagey's_Girl

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If I were an agent/editor, I'd be wary about publishing rights. I'd have to be sure that PA (or any other publisher) couldn't try to say that the rights weren't reverted for whatever reason. Barring that, I'd at least take a look - there's always the chance that it might be something wonderful.

So someone made an honest mistake? We all do. Why punish him or her for it?
 

Gigi Sahi

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Y'know, a part of me always suspected something like this would happen to ex-PA authors. This is why as an ex-PA author, I no longer write under Gigi Sahi. It's always easier to blame the victim than punish the perpetrator. I always felt that I, along with all other authors who fell for PA's scam, would always be looked down upon, thought less of, by fellow writers - even after getting out of our PA contracts. In the eyes of many, whether they come out and say it or not, ex-PA'ers will always bear the "stain" of stupidity and/or ignorance of the industry for not seeing PA for what it is from the get-go.

I intend to have a writing career, so I had to kiss Gigi Sahi (my real name, btw) goodbye and use a pen name - so no one would know that I was once suckered by PA, and I wouldn't have to spend the rest of my career apologizing, explaining, and feeling embarrassed.
 

Gigi Sahi

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I forgot to add that Sahi is my married name. I submit mss under my maiden name, so no one can trace Sahi back to the pen name I now use. Sahi is a pretty odd name in the US, so it tends to stand out.
 

Arkie

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While we don't like to blame the PA author because we consider them to be scammed; nevertheless, in 2004, when I began marketing my PA book, I found bookstore managers, and one owner in particularly, soured on PA, not because of the publisher, but because of the deceptive practices of a few PA authors. They had talked the bookstore owner into buying books for a signing, convincing the owner they would buy the leftovers, but went off leaving the owner holding books that she couldn't sell nor return, or they went to the bookstore and placed orders that they never intended to pick up, thinking the book would be placed on a store shelf.

Additionally, there have been PA authors who have attempted to push their PA books or manuscripts of a PA book to legitimate publishers while the book is still under contract to PA. This kind of behavior has been going on since PA's inception, and it is not confined to PA authors, but vanity press authors and those self-published as well. It is not uncommon to read in literary periodicals or "how to" books of authors pushing published books on agents and publishers--being googled and found to have a detrimental sales performance, and quite often a contract in force.

So think of yourself as an agent or acquisition editor placed in a position of being presented with a PA book, vanity or self-published, with all the contingent legal ramifications. How do you think you would react?--particularly when you are being swamped with legitimate manuscripts, and continually adding to a slush pile so large that it has attracted the city Fire Marshal.
 

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I think it has already been made more than clear that that is not the situation under discussion (a PA book being simultaneously offered to a large press).

Although PA actively encourage authors behaving badly, self-pub in general seems not much better or worse than equivalent small presses for that sort of thing (e.g. the recent 'Short Cut' anthology fraud).
 

CaoPaux

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If we're talking about the publisher I think we're talking about - it isn't limited to PA. XLibris and iUniverse were also mentioned.
No, it's not Bleak House. And to be clear: Bleak House doesn't say "we won't publish you if you have a book with PA/iU/XLibris". They say "your query doesn't have a snowball's chance if you mention PA/iU/XLibris in it".

The (Lulu-based, but soon to be going directly to Lightning Source) pub we're discussing has specifically stated "no current/active PA authors".

IMHO, if y'all start at the top and work down, you'll have a long way to go before you reach a publisher with any need to be concerned about where a previous book was published.
 

James D. Macdonald

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The (Lulu-based, but soon to be going directly to Lightning Source) pub we're discussing has specifically stated "no current/active PA authors".

Why is anyone even worried about those folks? Start at the top and work down; odds are you'll never get to them.
 

Gravity

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Of course it's discrimination, Jeff. And there's not a thing wrong with that. It's how commerce works. Every time any of us makes a purchase, we're discriminating. We buy Hondas and not Fords because we find them more reliable. We buy Folgers instead of Maxwell House because we find it makes a better cup of coffee. We buy Porter paint instead of Sherwin Williams because we've found it weathers better. And so on.

And so it is with editors. Folks, I've taught at writers conferences (and am scheduled to do so again this fall). I've rubbed elbows with senior acquisitions editors at some of the major houses. And I'm finding out something: it really does matter the company one keeps. Because PA's rep is growing, and not in a good way. A few years ago the editors were mostly "PA? What's that?" Now it's "Oh, Lord. Yeah, we've heard of them."

Fair? Nope. Reality? Most assuredly.
 

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Message 539473 by Adventure Books of Seattle on 2007-04-27 01:34:47. Feedback: 0 Added note: Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture and make a stand.
PA represents the basest morals in publishing. It is not our fault if dumb-ass authors who didn't do their research got snagged up by them. I'll bet most PA authors did not even use the latest copy of Writers' Market when they subbed their book...and they got burned.

Explain that one, Grav. It was taken from Speculations. There's no need to insult and use profanity against people.