Using Comma

Risen_Flower · Apr 27, 2007

I'm sorry for not quite knowing this.

I would like to know if these are correct.

Using "As if":

Example for using comma: As if it didn't matter, Lindsey overlooked the message on her desk.

Example for non-use of comma: Lindsey overlooked the note on her desk as if it didn't matter to her.

I assume the same goes for usage of "As though."

Using "As":

Example for using comma: As he walked up to the door, she rushed to meet up with him.

Example for non-use of comma: She rushed up to meet him as he walked up to the door.

Below are some sentences that I read in a book. I've become confused after reading this book because I thought I had this comma use down-packed. Please tell me why the following sentence below requires no comma:

Sentence 1: She reached forward, gingerly grasping his shoulder thankful Barry hadn't cuffed her hands behind her.

Why is there no comma before "thankful"?

Sentence 2: Involuntarily she pulled back as Barry headed toward the deserted pier.

Why is there no comma after "Involuntarily"?

I think I might understand, but I still want to be on the safe side and get it right.

I've become too frustrated, trying to keep the commas in place and keep the commas out from where they don't belong, trying to keep from starting sentences with words ending with -ing, trying to avoid passive sentences and wordiness, etc...

I've concluded that this writing business is no joke. So man restrictions.

Judg · Apr 27, 2007

If you start any sentence with any subordinate clause, you end the clause with a comma to keep it clear. That's what's happening in your first example and in the first sentence in my post. Which subordinating conjunction is used is not important, so you don't have to memorize the rule for each one. It applies to the whole class. In theory, you're not supposed to start a sentence with a coordinating conjunction: and, but, and so on. This was discussed rather thoroughly in a thread in this forum quite recently.

If the main clause comes first and your subordinate clause comes second, the subordinating conjunction makes it clear that a new clause has started, so the comma is not necessary. That's what's happening in your second example.

As for your examples from published books, the answer to both in my opinion is sloppy editing. They both read better with a comma.

Risen_Flower · Apr 29, 2007

What's wrong with starting a sentence with "And", "But", etc...?

I did find and read one thread here about using "And" at the beginning, but no one said it should be avoided. Now I've got more editing to work on.

Thanks for letting me know about the S-conj...
When I saw someone with "as though" in the middle of the sentence with a comma before it, I just had to know if this was the correct way or not.

trumancoyote · Apr 29, 2007

Judg said:
As for your examples from published books, the answer to both in my opinion is sloppy editing. They both read better with a comma.

Go read the unbastardized version of Great Gatsby.

With some authors, it's simply a matter of flow.

Risen_Flower · Apr 29, 2007

trumancoyote said:
Go read the unbastardized version of Great Gatsby.

With some authors, it's simply a matter of flow.

Are you saying that there's nothing wrong with those sentences?

Jamesaritchie · Apr 29, 2007

Risen_Flower said:
Sentence 1: She reached forward, gingerly grasping his shoulder thankful Barry hadn't cuffed her hands behind her.

Why is there no comma before "thankful"?

Sentence 2: Involuntarily she pulled back as Barry headed toward the deserted pier.

Why is there no comma after "Involuntarily"?

Either because the writer was after a certain flow, or because writer and editor screwed up. The first sentence is a definite screw up, but it may well have been a typesetter who left out the comma. You just never know.

You really can't find good info about comma use from anything other than a grammar book.

ErylRavenwell · Apr 30, 2007

Risen_Flower said:
Sentence 1: She reached forward, gingerly grasping his shoulder thankful Barry hadn't cuffed her hands behind her.

Why is there no comma before "thankful"?

Sentence 2: Involuntarily she pulled back as Barry headed toward the deserted pier.

Why is there no comma after "Involuntarily"?

I think I might understand, but I still want to be on the safe side and get it right.

I've become too frustrated, trying to keep the commas in place and keep the commas out from where they don't belong, trying to keep from starting sentences with words ending with -ing, trying to avoid passive sentences and wordiness, etc...

I've concluded that this writing business is no joke. So man restrictions.

Not every thing you read is grammatical. Yes, there should be commas in both examples. I, for instance, know about this; but like many writers, I wouldn't use the comma in the examples above, for I believe it is trivial and ruins the flow. I've seen best selling writers not using a comma to separate two independent clauses joined by a conjunction (in my book inexcusable, but who am I to judge?)

But don't get me wrong, grammar is important, and only reputable writers can afford to bend certain rules.

Just watch out for comma splices. Comma splices are unpardonable.

Deleted member 42 · Apr 30, 2007

Try writing first, just getting the words down on paper, then going back and revising, writing some more and revising . . .

ErylRavenwell · Apr 30, 2007

Medievalist said:
Try writing first, just getting the words down on paper, then going back and revising, writing some more and revising . . .

True. I reckon, writers (fiction writers) should always write with abandon, completely oblivious of the writing process and its rigid grammatical rules. Then, the editing to filter the insanity that comes along.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 30, 2007

ErylRavenwell said:
Not every thing you read is grammatical. Yes, there should be commas in both examples. I, for instance, know about this; but like many writers, I wouldn't use the comma in the examples above, for I believe it is trivial and ruins the flow. I've seen best selling writers not using a comma to separate two independent clauses joined by a conjunction (in my book inexcusable, but who am I to judge?)

But don't get me wrong, grammar is important, and only reputable writers can afford to bend certain rules.

Just watch out for comma splices. Comma splices are unpardonable.[/quote

Trouble with writing for flow is that if the reader knows where a comma should be, the flow usually stops dead when a comma is missing. A missing comma always stops flow completely for me, and in the first sentence, at least, the comma definitely is not missing because the writer wanted better flow.

Risen_Flower · Apr 30, 2007

My head is on fire somewhere on the floor. At least I feel that way. My head is really pounding over this problem. Right now, it is the adverb clause/ subordinate conjunction that's really bothering me. I previously posted my examples with the commas in place and examples without commas in place, and after long hours of research, with little info on my particularly issue, I'm still lost on when to use a comma to join clauses and when the comma is not needed.

You all, I did my best, trying to find all the information I could. I've taken notes, took quizzes, read so many pages regarding subordinate conjunctions, but I'm still left in the dark. It matters to me to get it right because I use the word "as" in my stories a lot.

One thing I am REALLY trying to find out is:

Does a comma belong before the word "as", if it is used to join two clauses?

An example is below:

This would not be just a horrid dream, as she slept in discomfort.

Does the comma belong there?
If it does or if it doesn't, can someone please explained in a simple way why it either belongs or doesn't belong? I would appreciate it very, very much.

I will even give further examples (from a well popular author)

Two examples from her book below, using the word "as":

Ex. 1 She smiled at him, seeming very old and wise, as he leaned over and kissed her.

Note the comma before "as" in that sentence.

Ex. 2 He and Marielle left shortly afterward, and as they walked a few blocks in the warm air, Charles looked vastly amused as he pulled her close to him and kissed her.

Note that in this sentence there isn't a comma.

Ex. 3 She looked suddenly worried, as she stretched her long, graceful legs in front of her, and tried desperately not to notice.

I've read more than once that - when an adverbial clause comes after the independent clause, a comma is not necessarily needed.

Am I the only one clueless about this situation?

Judg · Apr 30, 2007

Risen_Flower said:
My head is on fire somewhere on the floor. At least I feel that way. My head is really pounding over this problem. Right now, it is the adverb clause/ subordinate conjunction that's really bothering me. I previously posted my examples with the commas in place and examples without commas in place, and after long hours of research, with little info on my particularly issue, I'm still lost on when to use a comma to join clauses and when the comma is not needed.

You all, I did my best, trying to find all the information I could. I've taken notes, took quizzes, read so many pages regarding subordinate conjunctions, but I'm still left in the dark. It matters to me to get it right because I use the word "as" in my stories a lot.

One thing I am REALLY trying to find out is:

Does a comma belong before the word "as", if it is used to join two clauses?

An example is below:

This would not be just a horrid dream, as she slept in discomfort.

Does the comma belong there?
If it does or if it doesn't, can someone please explained in a simple way why it either belongs or doesn't belong? I would appreciate it very, very much.

I will even give further examples (from a well popular author)

Two examples from her book below, using the word "as":

Ex. 1 She smiled at him, seeming very old and wise, as he leaned over and kissed her.

Note the comma before "as" in that sentence.

Ex. 2 He and Marielle left shortly afterward, and as they walked a few blocks in the warm air, Charles looked vastly amused as he pulled her close to him and kissed her.

Note that in this sentence there isn't a comma.

Ex. 3 She looked suddenly worried, as she stretched her long, graceful legs in front of her, and tried desperately not to notice.

I've read more than once that - when an adverbial clause comes after the independent clause, a comma is not necessarily needed.

Am I the only one clueless about this situation?

I would try to avoid using "as" too frequently because it has two possible meanings, "at the same time)" and "since, because of". In your first sentence, deprived of the context, I can't figure out what it means. Normally, the comma would not be necessary though, because the conjunction makes it clear that a new clause has started. Remember, commas serve as separators. They are there to break the flow. If you start a sentence with the subordinate clause, the comma breaks the sentence into two parts for the readers so that they know not to try to make a direct link between words where it's not appropriate. If the main clause comes first, the conjunction provides the separation (your first example) and the comma is therefore not necessary.

In this example, it's a coincidence that a comma appears before the word "as".

Ex. 1 She smiled at him, seeming very old and wise, as he leaned over and kissed her.

The pair of commas are wrapped around the phrase "seeming very old and wise" because it is parenthetical. You can drop it entirely and still have a coherent sentence with the same meaning, just a little bit less information. If that phrase were removed, the commas would be removed along with it.

Now you understand why there's no comma before "as" in your next example. There is no parenthetical phrase needing to be set apart.

In both Ex. 2 and 3, the first comma is not necessary. Another thing to keep in mind, is that there are places where commas are optional. They're thrown in to induce a pause and in that case it's stylistic. Sometimes also, the words that are used in a particular sentence can be read in more than one way, and the comma is introduced to make the relationship clearer, even if there is no rule obliging its use.

Clear as mud?

ErylRavenwell · Apr 30, 2007

Judg brilliantly sorted out example 1; I'll stress a litlte bit on ex 2 and 3

Ex. 2 He and Marielle left shortly afterward, and as they walked a few blocks in the warm air, Charles looked vastly amused as he pulled her close to him and kissed her.

The only relevant part here is "Charles looked vastly amused as he pulled her close to him and kissed her." as it is the independent clause within which the conjunction "as" is embedded.

Now you can break this clause into two other clauses:

1. Charles looked vastly amused

2. he pulled her close to him and kissed her

Now, to know if the the conjunction "as" should be set with a comma, you must determine whether the first clause (No 1) is independent or not. It isn't independent, because without the second part you won't know why Charles looked amused. If the first clause depends on another clause or sentence fragment to complete a sentence's meaning, then no comma is required.

Ex. 3 She looked suddenly worried, as she stretched her long, graceful legs in front of her, and tried desperately not to notice.

Example 3 requires a comma, simply because "she looked worried" is independent of her stretching her legs. "Her leg stretching" is added information you could have done without. "she looked worried is thus independent.

Risen_Flower · May 1, 2007

Thanks J, for reminding me about example one. After you explained it, I realized just why the comma was there--something I actually already knew, but my brain was too out of place to notice.

Eryl, if I was to leave out: She looked suddenly worried...
Couldn't I also leave out: Charles looked vastly amused... in the other sentence? They both looked some way, and at least to me, it looks like he pulled her close to him and kissed her could very well be an independent sentence if I took out Charles looked vastly amused...

He pulled her close to him and kissed her.

I don't really understand the difference that causes use of the comma in example 2 vs example 3. I understand example 3, I don't understand example 2. After I read others posts here and what I've read online, I had come to the understanding that if the preceding clause is dependent of the main clause that no comma is needed. The following text behind "as" in example 2 do not appear to me as a dependent clause.

ErylRavenwell · May 1, 2007

Risen_Flower said:
Thanks J, for reminding me about example one. After you explained it, I realized just why the comma was there--something I actually already knew, but my brain was too out of place to notice.

Eryl, if I was to leave out: She looked suddenly worried...
Couldn't I also leave out: Charles looked vastly amused... in the other sentence? They both looked some way, and at least to me, it looks like he pulled her close to him and kissed her could very well be an independent sentence if I took out Charles looked vastly amused...

He pulled her close to him and kissed her.

I don't really understand the difference that causes use of the comma in example 2 vs example 3. I understand example 3, I don't understand example 2. After I read others posts here and what I've read online, I had come to the understanding that if the preceding clause is dependent of the main clause that no comma is needed. The following text behind "as" in example 2 do not appear to me as a dependent clause.

It is dependent. The reason why Charles was vastly amused is because he pulled her close to him and kissed her.

If it were independent, then "Charles was vastly amused" would be able to stand on its own without the rest. But were this the case then the sentence would be incomplete.

Is Charles the he?

Using Comma

Risen_Flower

Judg

DISENCHANTED coming soon

Risen_Flower

trumancoyote

My Name is Sweet Thing

Risen_Flower

Jamesaritchie

ErylRavenwell

Deleted member 42

ErylRavenwell

Jamesaritchie

Risen_Flower

Judg

DISENCHANTED coming soon

ErylRavenwell

Risen_Flower

ErylRavenwell