Adios Partial Birth Abortion

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_abortion

The Supreme Court upheld the nationwide ban on a controversial abortion procedure Wednesday, handing abortion opponents the long-awaited victory they expected from a more conservative bench.

The 5-4 ruling said the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act that Congress passed and President Bush signed into law in 2003 does not violate a woman's constitutional right to an abortion.

The opponents of the act "have not demonstrated that the Act would be unconstitutional in a large fraction of relevant cases," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in the majority opinion.

The administration defended the law as drawing a bright line between abortion and infanticide.

I am a big pro-choicer, but partial birth abortion is a brutal procedure and it's finally been outlawed.

IMOYou want an abortion, get one in the first tri-mester or before a doctor has to crush the skull of a fetus in the birth canal.

Well done, Supreme Court.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I am a big pro-choicer, but partial birth abortion is a brutal procedure and it's finally been outlawed.

IMOYou want an abortion, get one in the first tri-mester or before a doctor has to crush the skull of a fetus in the birth canal.

Well done, Supreme Court.

According to Roe V Wade, late term abortion is already illegal, excepting a health risk. This ban makes it illegal, even if there is a health risk for the woman, which is the only time the procedure is performed.

Women who stay pregnant after the second trimester want to have children. If this happens, it is because something has gone horribly wrong.
 
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Great.

More stupid, unwanted people for the planet.

It's not a popular procedure.

So, there won't be that that many more.

We will be able to assimilate them into the large bloc and/or block of stupid, unwanted people we already have.

Take Bravo, for example. He seems to be doing okay.
:D

Holla!
 
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This ban makes it illegal, even if there is a health risk for the woman, which is the only time the procedure is performed.

Can you link me on that?

The only time partial birth abortion is performed is when there's a health risk for the woman?
 

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Ginsburg provides some perspective-

Six federal courts have said the law that was in focus Wednesday is an impermissible restriction on a woman's constitutional right to an abortion.

The law bans a method of ending a pregnancy, rather than limiting when an abortion can be performed.

"Today's decision is alarming," Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg wrote in dissent. She said the ruling "refuses to take ... seriously" previous Supreme Court decisions on abortion.

Ginsburg said the latest decision "tolerates, indeed applauds, federal intervention to ban nationwide a procedure found necessary and proper in certain cases by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists."
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction

Circumstances in which the procedure is performed

IDX, along with dilation and evacuation (D&E), early induction of labor, and rare procedures such as saline abortions, are only used in the late stages of pregnancy. Late-term abortions (abortions at 21 weeks or later) account for 1.4% of all abortions in the USA.[14] Intact D&X procedures are used in approximately 15% of late-term abortion cases. This calculates to between 2,500 and 3,000 per year, using data from the Alan Guttmacher Institute for the year 2000. They are typically performed between the twentieth and twenty-fourth week of gestation.[15]

Women choose to have late-term abortions for a variety of reasons, such as not knowing they were pregnant earlier in the pregnancy and diagnosis of a fetal abnormality late in the pregnancy. Once the decision to have a late-term abortion has been made, a woman or doctor may choose IDX over other available late-term abortion procedures because:

To me, it doesn't sound like partial/late or whatever you want to call it ONLY happens in the case of health risk to the woman.

I'm not sure where you came up with that, Celia.

Anyway, ...luckily this law had bi-partisan support and we can all rest easy knowing that a woman's right to choose is still intact, but you can no longer kill a baby that is nearing if not already at viability.
 

Celia Cyanide

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Can you link me on that?

The only time partial birth abortion is performed is when there's a health risk for the woman?

"partial birth abortion" does not have a medical definition, but if you are talking about late term abortion, then yes. It's only performed when there is a health risk. That's why it's not done very often. I don't have time to find an article right now, but the key word in Roe is "viability."

There are really not a lot of reasons why a women who did not want to have a baby would abort so late. Beside the fact that they are technically illegal on an elective basis, late term abortions cost about 6 times as much as first trimester abortions.
 

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It might be a key word, but defining 'viability' seems to change yearly, with the advances in technology that continue to greatly increase chances for survival. A baby born between 20-24 weeks CAN now survive, even healthily so, nowadays. I think it was a good decision, personally.
 

Celia Cyanide

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It might be a key word, but defining 'viability' seems to change yearly,

Yes, that's a very valid point, but I can't really applaud any decision that does not allow a health exception. A main problem with the bill is that it does not clearly define what abortion procedures are banned, but why couldn't it just have a health exception?
 

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I think the rationale is, why should it have a 'health exception' for the woman, and not the baby? (Esp. as the woman at least had some say in the matter concerning the fact that she was pregnant, and the baby none.)
 

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According to Roe V Wade, late term abortion is already illegal, excepting a health risk. This ban makes it illegal, even if there is a health risk for the woman, which is the only time the procedure is performed.

Women who stay pregnant after the second trimester want to have children. If this happens, it is because something has gone horribly wrong.
Thank you for speaking the truth, Celia. You are correct. Most of these terminations take place between 18 and 23 weeks, but occasionally severe fetal anomalies are not detected until later in the pregnancy. When this happens, there is one clinic open in the US that will provides abortion services. They also offer memorial services for the bereaved.

Viability isn't at issue when a fetus has anencephaly, or cyclopia, or many other major things that can go wrong. A woman should not have to wait until a pregnancy gone wrong is destroying her health before she can make the choice to end it. Nor should she be forced to carry to term a baby that will die shortly after birth.

As far as so-called PBA goes, I know a few women who've been through it. Fluid is drained off the skull only in cases of severe hydrocephaly (water on the brain) where the skull could not possibly fit through the birth canal.

Furthermore, it is now common practice to provide a fetal heart injection before any late term abortion procedure has begun.
 
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Celia Cyanide

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I think the rationale is, why should it have a 'health exception' for the woman, and not the baby? (Esp. as the woman at least had some say in the matter concerning the fact that she was pregnant, and the baby none.)

Unfortunately, that's the way of the world, Pat, laws aside. Babies do not choose to be born. What a wonderful world it would be if babies could choose to be born and live with families who want them. But unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
 

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As far as so-called PBA goes, I know a few women who've been through it. Fluid is drained off the skull only in cases of severe hydrocephaly (water on the brain) where the skull could not possibly fit through the birth canal.

No, that's definitely not the only time PBA is used. (I'm at work, so hopefully someone else can find sources, or I can find them later on.)
 

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Thank you for speaking the truth, Celia. You are correct. I run a support site for women terminating wanted pregnancies following devasting prenatal diagnosis. Most of these terminations take place between 18 and 23 weeks, but occasionally severe fetal anomalies are not detected until later in the pregnancy. When this happens, there is one clinic open in the US that will provides abortion services. They also offer memorial services for the bereaved.

Viability isn't at issue when a fetus has anencephaly, or cyclopia, or many other major things that can go wrong. A woman should not have to wait until a pregnancy gone wrong is destroying her health before she can make the choice to end it. Nor should she be forced to carry to term a baby that will die shortly after birth.

As far as so-called PBA goes, I know a few women who've been through it. Fluid is drained off the skull only in cases of severe hydrocephaly (water on the brain) where the skull could not possibly fit through the birth canal.

Furthermore, it is now common practice to provide a fetal heart injection before any late term abortion procedure has begun.

Maybe you could explain to me, then, exactly why and how this procedure saves a woman's life? If the fetus has a devastating defect, how is that deadly to the mother? And if labor will kill her if she waits any longer, why does the baby need to be killed for her to survive, at this late stage where there's a possibility--in the US, at least, as the NHS here will no longer attempt to save these early babies--that it could survive? (Because obviously, she will go through labor for the procedure.)

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm genuinely curious. I've never known anyone I could ask.
 

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I suggest that everyone should actually read the full decision, before offering criticism on what it entails.

Page 17 of the Majority Opinion:
First, the person performing the abortion must "vaginally delive[r] a living fetus." §1531(b)(1)(A). The Act does not restrict an abortion procedure involving thedelivery of an expired fetus. The Act, furthermore, is inapplicable to abortions that do not involve vaginal delivery (for instance, hysterotomy or hysterectomy). The Act does apply both previability and postviability because, by common understanding and scientific terminology, a fetusis a living organism while within the womb, whether ornot it is viable outside the womb. See, [FONT=JBMMAD+CenturySchoolbook,Itali,Century Schoolbook]e.g., Planned Parenthood[/FONT], 320 F. Supp. 2d, at 971–972. We do not understand this point to be contested by the parties.
Second, the Act’s definition of partial-birth abortion requires the fetus to be delivered "until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother." §1531(b)(1)(A) (2000 ed., Supp. IV).The Attorney General concedes, and we agree, that if anabortion procedure does not involve the delivery of a livingfetus to one of these "anatomical ‘landmarks’"—where, depending on the presentation, either the fetal head or thefetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother—the prohibitions of the Act do not apply. Brief for Petitioner in No. 05–380, p. 46.
Page 20 of the Majority Opinion:
We next determine whether the Act imposes an undueburden, as a facial matter, because its restrictions on second-trimester abortions are too broad. A review of the statutory text discloses the limits of its reach. The Act prohibits intact D&E; and, notwithstanding respondents’ arguments, it does not prohibit the D&E procedure in which the fetus is removed in parts.

 

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No, that's definitely not the only time PBA is used. (I'm at work, so hopefully someone else can find sources, or I can find them later on.)
I'm more inclined to believe the mothers I know who've actually experience the procedure and shared the details of it with me, than I am to believe statistics from some Right To Life web site or Wiki.

There is no reason to reduce the size of the cranium absent an abnormally large head size in the fetus. Were the head size normal, foreceps would do the job.
 

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Unfortunately, that's the way of the world, Pat, laws aside. Babies do not choose to be born. What a wonderful world it would be if babies could choose to be born and live with families who want them. But unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

True, babies can't choose to be born, but thankfully some moms do allow their unwanted ones to be born so that others who do want them can parent them. My sister is an eternally grateful mom because of 2 moms who carried to term, and then offered babies up for adoption.
 
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Devil Ledbetter

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Maybe you could explain to me, then, exactly why and how this procedure saves a woman's life? If the fetus has a devastating defect, how is that deadly to the mother? And if labor will kill her if she waits any longer, why does the baby need to be killed for her to survive, at this late stage where there's a possibility--in the US, at least, as the NHS here will no longer attempt to save these early babies--that it could survive? (Because obviously, she will go through labor for the procedure.)

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm genuinely curious. I've never known anyone I could ask.
I never said it was to save the life of the mother. Therefore, I don't owe you an explanation of how it is.

I have received a deadly prenatal diagnosis. I choose not to relive the anguish of that for the sake of satisfying your curiousity, but I will say I could not have imagined how hard it is to carry a doomed pregnancy until I was in those shoes. You're waddling about in your maternity clothes and well-meaning strangers everywhere are cooing "Oh! When's the baby due? Is it a boy or a girl?"

And you're picking a grave marker.

I made a choice that saved my infant the suffering he would have endured had I carried him to term and let him die of his overwhelming problems. I am so sorry for every woman who will be denied the same right thanks to this assinine ruling.
 

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I'm more inclined to believe the mothers I know who've actually experience the procedure and shared the details of it with me, than I am to believe statistics from some Right To Life web site or Wiki.
I don't want to get into an argument on this, but...having undergone the procedure for a specific reason in a specific situation doesn't translate into knowledge of how the procedure is used across the board.
 

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Thank you for speaking the truth, Celia. You are correct. I run a support site for women terminating wanted pregnancies following devasting prenatal diagnosis. Most of these terminations take place between 18 and 23 weeks, but occasionally severe fetal anomalies are not detected until later in the pregnancy. When this happens, there is one clinic open in the US that will provides abortion services. They also offer memorial services for the bereaved.

Viability isn't at issue when a fetus has anencephaly, or cyclopia, or many other major things that can go wrong. A woman should not have to wait until a pregnancy gone wrong is destroying her health before she can make the choice to end it. Nor should she be forced to carry to term a baby that will die shortly after birth.

As far as so-called PBA goes, I know a few women who've been through it. Fluid is drained off the skull only in cases of severe hydrocephaly (water on the brain) where the skull could not possibly fit through the birth canal.

Furthermore, it is now common practice to provide a fetal heart injection before any late term abortion procedure has begun.
What some people think women are thinking: "omg like why is my belly so big and swollen? lol wut? omg like I don't want no baby lol!"

What really happens: "I'm sorry, Mrs Smith, this form of spina bifida can not be repaired in utero, the fetal spine is totally exposed and if this baby survives birth, it will die a painful death soon after. The only way to reduce the serious emotional burden on you and your family is for us to terminate this pregnancy. We're sorry we can't save the baby. You'll have to fly to Kansas for the procedure... I'm so sorry, Mrs Smith, even after birth, we won't be able to repair the serious damage caused by this condition."

What may happen now: "I'm sorry, Mrs Smith, this form of spina bifida can not be repaired in utero, the fetal spine is totally exposed and if this baby survives birth, it will die a painful death soon after. There is no way to reduce the serious emotional burden on you and your family by terminating this pregnancy. We're sorry we can't save the baby. You're going to have to carry this sick fetus to term, go through the risky agony of labor and delivery, and watch your baby suffer and die."
 

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What may happen now: "I'm sorry, Mrs Smith, this form of spina bifida can not be repaired in utero, the fetal spine is totally exposed and if this baby survives birth, it will die a painful death soon after. There is no way to reduce the serious emotional burden on you and your family by terminating this pregnancy. We're sorry we can't save the baby. You're going to have to carry this sick fetus to term, go through the risky agony of labor and delivery, and watch your baby suffer and die."

And yet, down through the ages this has been nature's way. Certainly this is tragic, but so has been the needless death of hundreds of healthy babies prior to this law.

(BTW, spina bifida, even with exposure, is not necessarily fatal.)
 
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Susan Gable

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What may happen now: "I'm sorry, Mrs Smith, this form of spina bifida can not be repaired in utero, the fetal spine is totally exposed and if this baby survives birth, it will die a painful death soon after. There is no way to reduce the serious emotional burden on you and your family by terminating this pregnancy. We're sorry we can't save the baby. You're going to have to carry this sick fetus to term, go through the risky agony of labor and delivery, and watch your baby suffer and die."

Instead, you'd like them to be able to say, "But hey, here's another idea. We'll just kill the baby inside you, where you can't see it suffer and die, because that will be a whole lot easier for everyone. We'll stab it in the heart through the uterine wall, and then once it's dead, we'll deliver it."

Yeah. Because you know, that will certainly lessen the woman's emotional devestation. :Jaw:

Susan G.
 
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