Gun Control?

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Bartholomew

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When does the right to keep and bear arms become stupid?

Why is it that whenever a gun makes the news, there is always a massacre or armed robbery, or any number of horrible things? And why is it there are never news articles where a gun turned a potentially bad situation good? Why do I not hear of the rape prevented because a passerby happened to have his .38 special? Does that sort of thing even happen?

Are guns useful for self-defense? Do they ever save lives? (Outside of the Police Force and Armed Forces.)
 

small axe

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When does the right to keep and bear arms become stupid?

About the same time people aren't allowed to vote anymore ... because "last time we elected a President, it may have been a bad choice" ???

It's a Constitutional right, I'll stay with that. We hear statistics that "a family member is more likely to be shot by accident, than the gun used to protect them" etc ...

Well, using a gun stupidly certainly hurts someone; but backing over your toddler in a SUV is a risk too. No one demands to take away your right to drive because of an admitted risk from driving.

I think (imo) people who want to stop us from owning a gun are basing it on: What if you do something stupid? and What if a BAD person has the gun?

I think (just imo) that the answer is:
I won't do something stupid (but thank you, Big Brother) and
If the BAD person has a gun, that's WHY the GOOD people need guns too.

I'd choose a world where no one had guns.

Failing that, we must face reality: in America there are many guns! We must live wisely with that fact.

It needn't become "the Wild West" ... the penalty for pulling your gun could be so harsh that, if you pulled a gun without justification, you will go to jail for years.

To make an extreme example, having a penis doesn't make every man walking down the street a rapist. Keep both penis and gun where no one is threatened, and we can all get along. :)

I'm wondering if penises don't cause more damage and heart ache than guns in America anyway ...
 

Rich

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Keep in mind, in most cases, penises are restricted to one per person.
 

Rolling Thunder

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I know more people who have been killed or maimed by cars. I say ban anything on wheels.
 

McDuff

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A couple of observations.

Gun Control =/= a complete ban on guns. Yet when you mention the former it is assumed that you must be talking about the latter.

Over the last six years the rights of citizens under the constitution have been attacked viciously in the name of "National Security." Why is it that the Second Amendment is biblical in the eyes of the public, but the rest of the constitution can atrophy with barely a note?
 

tourdeforce

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It's a Constitutional right, I'll stay with that.

I think America needs to have a dialogue about the Second Amendment and determine the meaning and context of "a well regulated militia" in relation to the right to bear arms.
 

small axe

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I think America needs to have a dialogue about the Second Amendment and determine the meaning and context of "a well regulated militia" in relation to the right to bear arms.

I agree, this nonsense of one court ruling one way and another ruling some other way is silly. Everyone gather their wits, and go to the Supreme Court and settle it.

Same goes for the 1st Amendment, get this quasi-Constitutional interpretation of "separation of Church and State" figured out. Because if you read the 1st Amendment OUR way (y'know, me and the love cult) the State cannot prohibit ANY religion from public life. :) Government is prohibited from establishing A religion, and from prohibiting ALL worship.

Read it, it's there. 1st Amendment.

But even I'll agree, let's figure who's holding the guns BEFORE we start arguing religion! :D
 

tourdeforce

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Same goes for the 1st Amendment, get this quasi-Constitutional interpretation of "separation of Church and State" figured out. Because if you read the 1st Amendment OUR way (y'know, me and the love cult) the State cannot prohibit ANY religion from public life. :) Government is prohibited from establishing A religion, and from prohibiting ALL worship.

Read it, it's there. 1st Amendment.



Keep going with that and explain what that means as far as you are concerned.

"... the State cannot prohibit ANY religion from public life."

Lay that out with real world examples of what should be allowed but is not currently permitted.
 

TheGaffer

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It isn't so much the right to bear arms as it is the right to bear them at any time. I don't advocate a ban on guns. But a ban on certain types of weapons is fine with me, and I'm against concealed weapons, if only because I have no interest in all of the various trigger-happy fools in this country deciding to take matters into their own hands, or start looking for "suspicious looking people" whenever there's a rumor of a terrorist attack.

Florida (and maybe robieae can comment on this) now has some sort of "stand your ground" law, which basically, from what I read, allows you to shoot whoever the hell if you're in a heated argument, which I'm sure is a wonderful idea, good for helping people cool their emotions. It sounds preposterous.
 

robeiae

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I think America needs to have a dialogue about the Second Amendment and determine the meaning and context of "a well regulated militia" in relation to the right to bear arms.
In the now-locked thread, you mentioned something along the lines of everyone getting to have a single bolt-action rifle. Let me say that my interpretation of the Second Amendment (which is, of course, the correct one) is very much along the lines of this suggestion.

The meaning of the Second is crystal clear, if you look at the Federalist papers, the debates on Ratification in various States (principally Virginia, not surprisingly), and the background of the various State constitutions. It's very much a Machiavellian thing, not in the sense of The Prince, but in the sense of The Discourses and Sparta.

Simply put, the idea is that the citizenry must have access to arms in case of invasion, the rise of tyranny, or the breakdown of civil government. Very much, the idea is about every citizen being able to go to his/her attic/basement and get out their/their father's/their grandfather's musket when there is "big trouble." That's the ideal state of affairs. It's not about walking around with a concealed weapon for protection from muggers, sleeping with a handgun in your dresser to shoot a burglar, or even hunting really. It's about a safeguard for defending society and democracy as a whole.

This doesn't mean you don't defend yourself or your property; doing so is the process through which this occurs. A real life example of the reason for the Second:

Hurricane Andrew devastated South Florida in 1992. Much of the area south of Miami--called Cutler Ridge, Perrine, Florida City and Homestead--was extremely hard hit. The National Guard and local authorities were on the scene, helping with cleanup and protecting against looters from pretty much day one. But they couldn't be in every neighborhood at every moment and nighttime, with no power anywhere in the area, was pretty scary for the people that were still there, trying to salvage their homes. There was some looting, but not as much as there might have been. Why? Shotgun duty. People got out their shotguns (the area is pretty rural) and stood sentry on their porches. In some areas, neighbors cooperated in this regard. And it was a good thing. Nobody was shot, that I remember (I could be wrong, though) and looting was minimized. And this didn't go on for all that long, but imo, it was a valid exercise of the Second.

And note that it was "shotgun," not "handgun" duty. Sure, some people had the latter, but a shotgun, like a big dog, is a real deterrent, since it is clearly visible when you are standing there. Handguns don't fit this template. This would be true in other situations, as well. Shotguns and rifles are the implicit weapon of choice to exercise the second. Personally, I have zero problem with getting rid of handguns. Skynard said it best...

But back to the bolt-action bit. I think the underlying sentiment there is correct, though I also think we should keep up with the times. As much as I have no problem with getting rid of handguns, I also have no problem with people owning automatic shotguns or even AK-47's. But they belong in a locked trunk in the attic, not under a bed or in a closet.

Do I own a gun? Yes--I recently received my Grandfather's shotgun, some 50 years old and in perfect condition. I oil it and clean it every so often. But there's not a shell in my house. Where do I keep it? In a locked trunk in my attic.
 
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The Grift

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When does the right to keep and bear arms become stupid?

Why is it that whenever a gun makes the news, there is always a massacre or armed robbery, or any number of horrible things? And why is it there are never news articles where a gun turned a potentially bad situation good? Why do I not hear of the rape prevented because a passerby happened to have his .38 special? Does that sort of thing even happen?

Are guns useful for self-defense? Do they ever save lives? (Outside of the Police Force and Armed Forces.)

Some of these figures are a bit old, but they are still similar. Also, bear in mind statistics are like bikinis; what they reveal is intriguing, but what they cover is critical.

Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year. There are about 30,000 gun deaths a year, including suicides.

This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.

As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.

Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).

Newsweek: "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."
 

Sohia Rose

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I’ve always been an advocate for the right to bear arms. As someone mentioned previously, it evens the playing field for crooks and law-abiding citizens. If government “rids” guns, people who want them will still have them, even criminals.

My mother owned several handguns throughout my childhood. Thinking back, I believe they were protection from my abusive father, although it would have taken a cannon to stop that beast! She never had to use them. But I have a distant cousin who shot her abusive husband; battered woman syndrome was her argument. She didn’t do time in jail or prison.

I’ve never owned a gun, albeit I got a gun permit once. I just didn’t feel it necessary for me to own a gun because I thought about it. If I did own a gun, most likely I would use it. And I wasn’t sure if I ever wanted to feel what it was like to kill someone. I’d have to live with it for the rest of my life. Even still, I believe in others' rights to bear arms.
 

Just Me 2021

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I personally think that faculty members of schools should first undergo psychological testing, and if they prove stable, should then receive training in self-defense and bearing arms, and all faculty members qualified should be able to conceal and carry. On these campuses where arms are prohibited a psychopath like Cho is not going to abide by the laws, and the students and faculty are helpless, sitting ducks.

Just MHO.
 

maestrowork

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Gun Control =/= a complete ban on guns. Yet when you mention the former it is assumed that you must be talking about the latter.

Thank you. I'm tired of people equating gun control to gun ban. Every time someone brings up the topic of gun CONTROL, someone will say, "You can't ban us having guns -- we have the right!"

You know, we have the right/privilege to drive cars, too. But it doesn't mean just about anyone can operate a motor vehicle without training and license. It won't stop people from driving illegally, but at least there's that control. That's what we're talking about.

I own a gun, and I'm for gun control.
 
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SC Harrison

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Do I own a gun? Yes--I recently received my Grandfather's shotgun, some 50 years old and in perfect condition. I oil it and clean it every so often. But there's not a shell in my house. Where do I keep it? In a locked trunk in my attic.

I've got my Dad's Belgian Sweet 16 (1948), but I can't help playing with it. :)

I've probably shot it forty times in the last year or so, and perfected the rapid two shot group. Two years ago I won three turkeys in a row and they wouldn't let me shoot anymore. ;(

Bastards.
 

truelyana

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If you want to own a gun, go for it. It is in your own will and responsibility to do as you please with it afterall.

In Portugal, most people own guns usually to shoot out at birds. One time, the next door neighbour's son decided to use he's gun to shoot our new alarm system lol. It wasn't very humorous at the time, as my dad made him pay for it.
 

robeiae

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maestrowork

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One more reason why I shouldn't move to Florida. :)

Can we move TIO to Florida? These threads would be so much shorter. ;)
 

ChunkyC

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I think America needs to have a dialogue about the Second Amendment and determine the meaning and context of "a well regulated militia" in relation to the right to bear arms.
That's the part of that amendment far too many people seem to forget. As robeiae said, the intent of the amendment was not to have every citizen walking the street packing heat. It was to ensure that in time of need, a citizen could lay his hands on a legally owned weapon to defend his life and community.

Like others have said, gun control is not the same as gun ban. I shake my head whenever someone up here in Canada whines about having to fill out a form and wait a few days to get their gun when it takes ten times as long to get a passport. It should not be easier to get a gun than a fishing license.

My 2¢
 
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