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Alien Enigma
04-15-2007, 12:17 PM
I've been slimed again at my freewebs address. I sent the IP to James Macdonald. It might be beneficial for AW to announce or make a sticky thread about how it isn't proper to put "propaganda" in an author's guestbook.

Rolling Thunder
04-15-2007, 03:08 PM
Sorry to hear that, Jeff. But isn't your guestbook monitored?

JimmyD1318
04-15-2007, 04:50 PM
I saw it Jeff. She wasn't putting you or your work down at all. So how was she slimming you? She just voiced her opinion about PA. It wasn't directed to you at all.

zizban
04-15-2007, 05:19 PM
They're just voicing their opinion, it's not a "u suck for going with publish america, loser" post.

TwentyFour
04-15-2007, 07:16 PM
A guestbook is a personal page for acknowledging the site and the owner, not for making harrasing declarations for a publisher. I think people should keep their arguements about PA where it belongs, on boards and areas that discuss it. I'd be very angry if I had a site that was bombarded with personal attacks.

Saundra Julian
04-15-2007, 07:23 PM
Had it happen to me when I was with that printer.
This message wasn't as bad as mine. It said I should be ashamed to tell my friends and family I was printed by PA...that really hurt a (stupid) newby!

zizban
04-15-2007, 07:46 PM
I will say this: When you put up a public guestbook, open to anyone, these things are going to happen. You can solve this by moderating your guestbook, making it private or password protected. For instance, Lawrence watt-Evans' guestbook requires you to know the real name of one his characters before posting.

This is also why I dont have a guestbook.

Ken Schneider
04-15-2007, 07:54 PM
Delete the message, and go on.
Everyone here is aware of how AW feels about guestbook posting.

If the person who wrote a note in your guestbook is a member here, and the Mods think the message in your book was derogatory enough, they will be banned.

TwentyFour
04-15-2007, 07:57 PM
No, guestbooks have been slimed before and have been dealt with here. It is against the rules to do something so "slimey". I've been here long enough to know the rules, I hope others do too.



MacAllister Quote:

Nicole LeBoeuf said:
Quote:
The system going is, the mods here invite anyone whose guestbook has been slimed to privately message them (the mods) with their (the slimers') IP addresses. If there is a match between the IP address of the slimer and the IP address of an AW Water Cooler member, that member gets banned. No exceptions, no favoritism. It's been done. Do a search in the Old NEPAT and you'll find examples.

Seriously, if you have a guestbook, and it's been slimed, send the slimer's IP address on in to anyone with a "mod squad" or "moderator" designation. They'll check up. IP addresses are much better proof of origination than any particular code phrase in the slimer's message.
I'm a mod. I'll vouch for this. If you've been Amazon slammed or guestbook slimed, please feel free to contact me either on this board, or you're welcome to email me--macallisterstone AT yahoo.com.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=548142&postcount=4624




From James MacDonald
Once again, if any PA author finds a Slimer message posted on his or her guestbook, find the IP number of the slimer and put it here.

If the slimer is an AW member ... he or she will be banned on the spot.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=491473&postcount=321

TwentyFour
04-15-2007, 07:58 PM
Delete the message, and go on.
Everyone here is aware of how AW feels about guestbook posting.

If the person who wrote a note in your guestbook is a member here, and the Mods think the message in your book was derogatory enough, they will be banned.
You beat me...lol.

DaveKuzminski
04-15-2007, 08:15 PM
What concerns me about this policy is that we are dealing with a group of authors containing individuals who see no moral wrong in making orders using false names and invalid credit cards, to illustrate only one of many schemes documented thus far. Can those individuals be trusted not to manufacture IP numbers for the purpose of disrupting activities within AW in the mistaken belief that AW's actions are blocking their sales? That is, of course, another often stated position within that group.

endless rewrite
04-15-2007, 08:23 PM
Had a look, it was hardly slime more of a damp squib and not worth making such a fuss about. Not sure how or why AE has determined and is stating that the post in question is the work of an AW member or linked to reviews on Amazon. Where's the proof?

DaveKuzminski
04-15-2007, 08:35 PM
Keep in mind that many of the group I mentioned consider any rating less than perfect to be "sliming" them whether it's at a retailer's forum or in their own guestbook. We've seen many such claims in the PA forum that writers felt they'd been slimed because they didn't get perfect fives.

Saundra Julian
04-15-2007, 08:45 PM
If you get a bad review from someone, is that sliming or an honest opinion? Depends on your ego, would be my guess...and remember your book won't appeal to everyone!

Saundra Julian
04-15-2007, 08:51 PM
I think the finger has been pointed directly at a member of AW. Why is that?

Popeyesays
04-15-2007, 10:16 PM
It isn't proper to say someone is 'naive and gullible' in their guest book. Other than that, though, it is the politest 'sliming' I have ever seen.

Regards,
Scott

e.dashwood
04-15-2007, 10:35 PM
Dave K., The statement in your signature about PA authors not knowing how bad PA smells until you see the look on bookstore clerks' faces raises an interesting question. I wonder if there is even one documented case of a bookstore employee (people who know the biz) becoming a PA author. I bet against it.

James D. Macdonald
04-16-2007, 04:21 AM
I've passed Alien's PM on to MacAllister. [email address redacted], and I'm sure Alien can find a way to PM her if he wants to.

Dave said:


What concerns me about this policy is that we are dealing with a group of authors containing individuals who see no moral wrong in making orders using false names and invalid credit cards, to illustrate only one of many schemes documented thus far.

You're talking about Kevin A. Fabiano (kevinfabiano on the PAMB), and his promotional scheme for another, non-PA, book as reported in Publishers Weekly.

Should PA ban him from their messageboard for his actions? Their decision. If PA makes a morally indefensible choice does that require us to make a morally infensible choice just to keep up with them?

zizban
04-16-2007, 06:16 AM
I've passed Alien's PM on to MacAllister. Mac's email address is macallisterstone (AT) yahoo.com, and I'm sure Alien can find a way to PM her if he wants to.

And this will reveal whether the culprit was from AW or we just gonna radomly ban someone because someone can't take mild criticsm?

Sean D. Schaffer
04-16-2007, 06:43 AM
I've been slimed again at my freewebs address. I sent the IP to James Macdonald. It might be beneficial for AW to announce or make a sticky thread about how it isn't proper to put "propaganda" in an author's guestbook.


Sorry that happened to you, Jeff. It's no fun having your guestbook slammed. I know the feeling quite well.

I just hope they don't return to harass you further. It's bad enough getting one message, let alone five or six.

TwentyFour
04-16-2007, 06:50 AM
And this will reveal whether the culprit was from AW or we just gonna radomly ban someone because someone can't take mild criticsm?
It is against AW's rules to slime a guestbook, no matter what.

I think they should be banned. It brings down the whole board and what it stands for. If one is given the oppertunity to purposely degrade another writer, then there will be more and more to follow.

Sean D. Schaffer
04-16-2007, 07:17 AM
And this will reveal whether the culprit was from AW or we just gonna radomly ban someone because someone can't take mild criticsm?


The thing is Zizban, this is not mild criticism of Jeff. It has nothing to do with Jeff. It has to do with PublishAmerica, and Jeff's site is dedicated to Jeff and his books, not PA.

Have you ever been slammed on your own site for someone else's slimy tactics? I have, and it is extremely difficult to handle. I'll admit this particular sliming seems milder than usual, but it's still hard to handle having someone insinuate a person's an idiot for going with a particular house, such as the guestbook slimer in question did.

I agree with SouthernWriter1978 that the slimer, if they're an AW member, ought to be banned. It does bring the whole board down, especially if the slimer links to the board in his or her post. It gives the whole situation the 'Us versus Them' mentality like mentioned in the original NEPAT when AW was on EZBoard. We do not need an 'Us versus Them' mentality here. We're trying to help other writers ... for the most part. We have no business condoning this kind of behavior on the part of anyone.

DaveKuzminski
04-16-2007, 04:01 PM
Dave K., The statement in your signature about PA authors not knowing how bad PA smells until you see the look on bookstore clerks' faces raises an interesting question. I wonder if there is even one documented case of a bookstore employee (people who know the biz) becoming a PA author. I bet against it.

Actually, there is. He no longer claims PA is a stepping stone and is now published by a reputable publisher. You can find his posts in the AW archives. Look for Canada James.

zizban
04-16-2007, 06:54 PM
I note with amusement that Alien Enigma started the exact same thread on PAMB.

endless rewrite
04-16-2007, 06:56 PM
I reckon it is just another of his pointless 'publicity' efforts.

DaveKuzminski
04-16-2007, 07:49 PM
We've actually experienced some instances of what I'm warning about. About two years ago, one then-PA-author went onto several different forums to "duke" it out with PA critics and then went back to PA to post about it on their forum. We can only speculate on their reasons, though I suppose it was to impress PA and inspire PA to support that author.

VGrossack
04-16-2007, 08:03 PM
If you get a bad review from someone, is that sliming or an honest opinion? Depends on your ego, would be my guess...and remember your book won't appeal to everyone!

I think it depends. I've read many reviews at Amazon of PA books - most very positive, as they are so often written by other PA authors! But if you read them with a critical eye, you can see that they say little or nothing. Usually it's just generalities of praise (I couldn't put this down; you'll love this book; great characters; blah, blah) with nothing specific enough to convince me that the reviewer actually read the book - or merely glanced at the first and last pages without absorbing any content! However, a review which is genuine tends to contain comments on specific parts of the book. (There are always exceptions, of course; some people can read without being able to write.)

The same holds for negative reviews and comments. If they are overly general, it's possible that the reviewer never really read the work in question. If they contain specific points of criticism, well, then, the matter is different and the criticism should be taken seriously.

Jersey Chick
04-16-2007, 08:14 PM
I should think a bad review could be seen as sliming only if it attacks the author instead of the book. If a reviewer says the plot has holes big enough to drive a truck through, that's a lot different from saying the author is an idiot...

But I also agree that a general review does little in the way of positive or negative feedback. I want to know details - not just "you won't be able to put it down." Well, why not?

Then again, I've only ever bought one book based on a review. I like to read the back of the book and decide from there...

Sparhawk
04-16-2007, 08:30 PM
<<Sigh>> Enigma... this is all pablam and you KNOW that. You know what the AW policy is pertaining to Guest Book slimers and you know that policy is enforced. Please go weep for your guestbook back on the PAvidian forum. We have better things to do with our time than slime you or your vanity press prose.

Delete the 'offensive' remark and get on with your life.

Rolling Thunder
04-17-2007, 01:56 AM
I went to look at the remark and the poster actually thought Jeff should find a publisher worthy of his work. How is that slamming?

Oh, and the only source for Xavier Lucky I could find was here:
http://www.themilitant.com/2000/6428/642858.shtml

DaveKuzminski
04-17-2007, 05:47 AM
I went to look at the remark and the poster actually thought Jeff should find a publisher worthy of his work. How is that slamming?

Oh, and the only source for Xavier Lucky I could find was here:
http://www.themilitant.com/2000/6428/642858.shtml

Sounds to me like the poster found merit in Jeff's work and felt a better publisher was needed. Maybe Jeff just doesn't see yet how PA is holding him back.

MacAllister
04-18-2007, 11:13 AM
The thing about leaving guestbook comments -- especially when you know well and good that attacking PA on Alien Enigma's guestbook isn't going to do any good, and is going to fall on deaf ears -- is that it's one thing to do so, if you sign your name, but quite another when you hide your identity.

When you do something like that anonymously, you're behaving like a troll. It fast becomes clear that your motive is primarily to stir up muck and provoke hostility.

AW has a longstanding policy about trolling on PA authors' guestbooks and blogs, etc.: It's not tolerated. That's not open for discussion.

As it happens, the IP did conclusively match that of a member -- Zizban, who had every opportunity to own up, who knew very well about the policy, who instead attempted to obfuscate the issue -- and who is now banned.

Rolling Thunder
04-18-2007, 03:40 PM
AW has a longstanding policy about trolling on PA authors' guestbooks and blogs, etc.: It's not tolerated. That's not open for discussion.

As it happens, the IP did conclusively match that of a member -- Zizban, who had every opportunity to own up, who knew very well about the policy, who instead attempted to obfuscate the issue -- and who is now banned.

Sounds like appropriate action to me. Ziz should have owned up to it when he had the chance.

irishidid
04-18-2007, 03:59 PM
What exactly did he say that was bad enough to get him banned? Which is the criminal offense? Saying it or just writing in the guestbook? How is this banned member a troll? If I leave an anonymous post am I a troll? Did he go back to the guestbook and keep egging it on?
Sorry, but this banning makes no sense.

Jersey Chick
04-18-2007, 04:19 PM
Was he banned for leaving the comment or not owning up to it?

Just curious....

MacAllister
04-18-2007, 04:24 PM
It's frankly not open for discussion. Zizban can easily email me, if s/he would care to discuss it -- but it's always been our policy that anonymous slamming of PA and authors on guestbooks and blogs isn't tolerated.

Popeyesays
04-18-2007, 04:25 PM
I think it's kind of like the old dog poo in the flaming bag trick . . . it's declasse even if the bag is not full of poo. It's the appearance of 'poo' in the eye of the beholder.

Regards,
Scott

irishidid
04-18-2007, 04:39 PM
Well ban away if you must, but why would you tell everyone who you banned? Now you've violated Zizban's right to privacy.

Stacia Kane
04-18-2007, 05:06 PM
Well ban away if you must, but why would you tell everyone who you banned? Now you've violated Zizban's right to privacy.

What right to privacy? This is a message board--a privately owned and operated one--not a government agency, a doctor or lawyer's office, or a workplace.

Celia Cyanide
04-18-2007, 05:08 PM
Well ban away if you must, but why would you tell everyone who you banned? Now you've violated Zizban's right to privacy.

Right to privacy? If you get banned, why are the mods obligated to keep that reason private? When people are banned for any other reason, mods often post a reason why. Is this any different? It doesn't have to be kept a secret, and honestly, I think it's good that it isn't. I hope PA authors who might lurk here know that AW takes this issue very seriously. Guestbook sliming is and has always been a bannable offense, no exceptions. If you think you'll be embarassed when everyone finds out you did it, the simple solution is not to do it.

irishidid
04-18-2007, 05:17 PM
They shouldn't post why someone is banned PERIOD. It's low class, but as I've seen time and time again low class is AW's motto.
Please ban me. I don't want anything further to do with this place. It's too big and so are your heads.

Ken Schneider
04-18-2007, 05:19 PM
As it should beóMac.

I'm still miffed about how people know the rules and still think they are oblivious to the consequences.

Why use a guestbook when you can say what was said in his guestbook right here?

Ken Schneider
04-18-2007, 05:20 PM
They shouldn't post why someone is banned PERIOD. It's low class, but as I've seen time and time again low class is AW's motto.
Please ban me. I don't want anything further to do with this place. It's too big and so are your heads.


Ban yourself, bye!

Gravity
04-18-2007, 05:31 PM
Please ban me. I don't want anything further to do with this place. It's too big and so are your heads.

You forgot to add, "you big poopies." Sigh. Kids today, I swear...

JimmyD1318
04-18-2007, 05:39 PM
I really don't think what was said on AE's guestbook was slimming, but I understand why the ban was done. You have to have rules and they have to be enforced.

Sheryl Nantus
04-18-2007, 06:19 PM
just don't rush to his website to look at the "offending" entry - Jeff's using this to promote himself (again) and now that the matter's been taken care of there's no need to encourage him by giving him website hits.

Ken Schneider
04-18-2007, 06:30 PM
I can't see the logic in trying to lure a bunch of people to a site about a PA book that none of us would buy anyway.

I can buy three named author's books for the same price and be sure of a decent read.

Another quixotic PA marketing idea. Stay hot.

Momento Mori
04-18-2007, 06:39 PM
Didn't irishidid already leave forever last year? Meh. People.

James D. Macdonald
04-18-2007, 06:44 PM
Please ban me. I don't want anything further to do with this place. It's too big and so are your heads.


Please check the FAQ on how to flounce (http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/blackadder/epguide/two_potato.shtml).

TwentyFour
04-18-2007, 06:58 PM
Me, as well as some other members here, had a very good idea of who did the sliming early on and sad to say-we were right.

CatSlave
04-18-2007, 09:38 PM
They shouldn't post why someone is banned PERIOD. It's low class, but as I've seen time and time again low class is AW's motto.
Please ban me. I don't want anything further to do with this place. It's too big and so are your heads.
At PA, posters and comments disappear without a trace or an explanation.

Whether you agree with the mod's decision or not, at least here you are given an explanation for the banning, and a clear statement as to what is considered a bannable offence.

Not low class in the least.

xhouseboy
04-18-2007, 10:27 PM
It is against AW's rules to slime a guestbook, no matter what.

I think they should be banned. It brings down the whole board and what it stands for. If one is given the oppertunity to purposely degrade another writer, then there will be more and more to follow.

IMO this was nowhere near a slime, not even in that ball park.

The 'guest' simply assumed that Jeff hadn't heard about PA, and then went on to wish him luck with a real publisher.

Just gotta love it when posters call for the banning of others; it's like football players descending to calling for opponents to be sent off the field, because they feel the the rules have been transgressed, and to hell with waiting for the referee's decision.

Maddog
04-18-2007, 10:33 PM
Jeff: Taking down AW one slimer at a time.:ROFL:

Tina
04-18-2007, 10:54 PM
Thank goodness AW has Alien to point out violations of the rules - when it suits Alien's purpose.

TwentyFour
04-19-2007, 12:20 AM
Just gotta love it when posters call for the banning of others; it's like football players descending to calling for opponents to be sent off the field, because they feel the the rules have been transgressed, and to hell with waiting for the referee's decision.
Hehe...us good will police are honored by your mention.

xhouseboy
04-19-2007, 01:18 AM
Hehe...us good will police are honored by your mention.

And no doubt as the Chief of the good will police, you're relishing that warm glow you now feel inside.

I've no beef with members being banned for rules violations, though I must confess that I have absolutely no time for what where I come from is normally referred to as 'shit stirrers'.

Rolling Thunder
04-19-2007, 02:48 AM
I'm not happy about Ziz getting banned either. But let's be fair; under the rules he backed Mac into a corner.

Frankly, I've been willing to give Jeff a chance. But he complains about a 'slimer' and then goes off to other boards, not only to crow about it, but then turns around and comments on the PAMB:


All of you are great! Thanks for chiming in. I had over 81 visitors to my site over this, so I guess something good came from it. I'm not too worried about the old chap. I have other things to worry about than worrying about someone who feels the need to say negative things.

And on his own forum:



I do have other things to worry about than Xavier Lucky or whatever the name was. As the preacher on TV says, "Joy is coming in the morning."

I'm not too upset over it right now. http://s4.images.proboards.com/cheesy.gif
Jeff gets beat up on and ridiculed on the internet regularly. It's not by coincidence.

Medievalist
04-19-2007, 03:07 AM
AW has a longstanding policy about trolling on PA authors' guestbooks and blogs, etc.: It's not tolerated. That's not open for discussion.

Guys -- this is just a reminder, right now. When MacAllister says "That's not open for discussion," what she really means is "That's not open for discussion."

Rolling Thunder
04-19-2007, 03:12 AM
Can we get some poptart kittens before you lock the thread? :D

Dawno
04-19-2007, 03:34 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/Ebil_Librarian/poptartkitten.jpg

Jersey Chick
04-19-2007, 03:39 AM
Whoa - where'd you find kitten poptarts???

They'd totally freak my daughter out ;)

Rolling Thunder
04-19-2007, 03:43 AM
You should see the frosted variety.

Medievalist
04-19-2007, 03:44 AM
You should see the frosted variety.

That is so very very kinky . . .

Rolling Thunder
04-19-2007, 03:48 AM
Kinky? Hmmm...I think spam filled kitten poptarts would be kinky. Or gross. :)

DaveKuzminski
04-19-2007, 05:52 AM
I wish to know who provided the IP address. Did Jeff provide it or was it directly obtainable from the guestbook by someone impartial?

A high school teacher once taught me that historians learned to believe the best said about someone by that individual's enemies and to believe the worst provided by the individual's friends because those were less prone to exaggeration. I believe that dictum still holds true in other matters.

Medievalist
04-19-2007, 06:00 AM
I wish to know who provided the IP address. Did Jeff provide it or was it directly obtainable from the guestbook by someone impartial?

What part of This Discussion is Closed (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1276479&postcount=58) do you not understand?