The metamorphosis of language

kdnxdr · Apr 11, 2007

Just thinking about some of the comments regarding language/culture made me curious as to what different examples we could come up with regarding language-use changes.

My friends and I were discussing the words/concepts of breast/tits/boobs today at work.

The comment was made that earlier in our culture boob was an ignorant person or a person who had little to contribute. Also, in contemporary culture, it seems that saying boobs is more socially comfortable than saying breasts in casual public conversation when referring to a woman's anatomy.

Any other examples ya'll can think of?

Silver King · Apr 11, 2007

I certainly agree with the mammary glands reference. I've heard "boob job" over "breast augmentation" at least one hundred to one.

Wasn't a "jerk off" the person who worked a soda fountain back in the day?

kdnxdr · Apr 11, 2007

LOL......soda jerk, I believe

Just curious, are you a plastic surgeon?

Silver King · Apr 11, 2007

kdnxdr said:
LOL......soda jerk, I believe

True, but on the days he wasn't working, the jerk was off, right?

Here's something my dad used to say, which, believe it or not, was meant as the highest form of praise for the female body: "She's built like a brick shithouse."

Much to my relief, I discovered much better similes as I grew older.

kdnxdr · Apr 11, 2007

that's an interesting one to anylize.......I wonder what the similarity factor could be?

hmmmmmmm......thinking, thinking, thinking

stout, as in built strong?

Silver King · Apr 11, 2007

kdnxdr said:
stout, as in built strong?

That's what I always thought. And while growing up, I didn't hear it just from him, but from others in his age group as well. Even when I was very young, the words made me cringe, in particular when they were referred to my mom or someone else I loved.

Higgins · Apr 11, 2007

Hyberbole?

Silver King said:
True, but on the days he wasn't working, the jerk was off, right?

Here's something my dad used to say, which, believe it or not, was meant as the highest form of praise for the female body: "She's built like a brick shithouse."

Much to my relief, I discovered much better similes as I grew older.

I believe it is a hyperbole: ie the meaning is that, since brick is the finer form of construction and shithouses are the last thing you would build in such a fine form, the figurative "brick shithouse" exceeds the expectations of formal beauty by as much as a brick shithouse would the expectations of shithouse construction.

Silver King · Apr 11, 2007

Sokal said:
I believe it is a hyperbole: ie the meaning is that, since brick is the finer form of construction and shithouses are the last thing you would build in such a fine form, the figurative "brick shithouse" exceeds the expectations of formal beauty by as much as a brick shithouse would the expectations of shithouse construction.

So my Pa was right after all. God bless his soul.

Thanks, Sokal.

Higgins · Apr 12, 2007

Taboo deformation

kdnxdr said:
Just thinking about some of the comments regarding language/culture made me curious as to what different examples we could come up with regarding language-use changes.

My friends and I were discussing the words/concepts of breast/tits/boobs today at work.

The comment was made that earlier in our culture boob was an ignorant person or a person who had little to contribute. Also, in contemporary culture, it seems that saying boobs is more socially comfortable than saying breasts in casual public conversation when referring to a woman's anatomy.

Any other examples ya'll can think of?

I'm just guessing, but it seems like "boob" is a word that was appropriated by a process known as "taboo deformation"...Taboo deformation supposedly describes what happens to a word such as "breast" or Whatever the original germanic word was for "wolf"...and it describes the case where people alter the phonemes of word (as "God" into "Gosh" or "Jesus" into "Gee-whizz") to make it safe to say. This also falls into the cultural realm that covers "joking relationships" (eg. mothers-in-law in some societies) and "avoidance relationships" (as in how to be extremely polite if you are an Apache: you just never talk to your mother-in-law at all...of course traditionally one eventually accidently met her and then explained how you wanted to give her the extreme complement of avoiding her, but then life went on in a more normal way once that necessary accident happened)...so anyway "boob" was around as a word and "breast" was a word not to be used jokingly or in "avoidance" contexts and boob was already a joking term referring to dangerous technical objects such as "booby traps" and so "boob" ended up at the safe end of references to things associated with desirable female structures...unlike say "bombshell" and "Bikini"...which stayed "jokingly" ( or "avoidance-ily")
at the dangerous end.

But I'm just guessing...

robeiae · Apr 12, 2007

Actually, being built like a brick shithouse, or a brick house, or a brick school house, or other variants, originally was used in reference to men who were "well put together" in a thick-necked, barrel chested sort of way.

When applied to women, it's kind of the same thing. See Commodores lyrics to Brick House, for instance. Also, it means "stacked." Ya know, like bricks are stacked...

The "shit" part is really inconsequential.

Higgins · Apr 12, 2007

Inconsequential Shit

robeiae said:
Actually, being built like a brick shithouse, or a brick house, or a brick school house, or other variants, originally was used in reference to men who were "well put together" in a thick-necked, barrel chested sort of way.

When applied to women, it's kind of the same thing. See Commodores lyrics to Brick House, for instance. Also, it means "stacked." Ya know, like bricks are stacked...

The "shit" part is really inconsequential.

Hmmmmm....I don't think that shit is inconsequential at all. The brick house lyrics are going way out of their way to be positive. "Brick" and "house" are very positive assessments. "Brick" by itself is positive in many ways (in opposition to "Gold Brick" for example, "brick" means "not fake or ornamental but really real") and they drop that shit...So what is the shit term doing in "Brick shithouse"? I've given the hyperbolic reading above in this thread, but it is possible the shit has another function: it might simulateously mark, acknowledge ("jokingly") and turn aside (apotraically, as with turning the evil eye) the dangers of desire.

This is the sort of analysis where plain old-fashioned structuralism can be a great help. In structural terms, we know from the work of anthropologists like Mary Douglas, that the opposite of Purity is not impurity, but Danger and similarly, the opposite of impurity is not Purity, but Safety. It is in working out these constructive/constituitive discontinuities that Structuralism has done its most distinctive work. In structuralist terms, the shit in "built like a brick shithouse" indicates the safety of a joking relationship as well as indicating the dangerous side of the gaze (slipping into Lacanian terms) as well as indicating that there is more than one continuum overwhich the terms of an acknowledged desire or gaze might run: it might run into jokes, it might run into sex, it might run into the ambiguities of avoidance, it might run into trouble, ie some shit, ie some danger.

So it seems quite possible that the shit in "built like a brick shithouse" has many structurally decypherable connotations.

robeiae · Apr 12, 2007

You're over-thinking it, imo. Again, "built like a brick shithouse" was used in reference to men, initially. The "why" is quite simple: brick outhouses were essentially the smallest brick buildings around, and not much bigger than a person. The comparison is obvious.

Higgins · Apr 12, 2007

More speculation

robeiae said:
You're over-thinking it, imo. Again, "built like a brick shithouse" was used in reference to men, initially. The "why" is quite simple: brick outhouses were essentially the smallest brick buildings around, and not much bigger than a person. The comparison is obvious.

Since it was originally applied to men and now has seemingly drifted over to apply to women (very obviously in an originally totally joking way)...well the similitude of the original comparison is gone and the term might work roughly as I have suggested, ie, as a hyperbolic figure with perhaps some apotraic properties.

kdnxdr · Apr 12, 2007

well..........whatever it all boils down to, it's still vulgar!

pdr · Apr 12, 2007

As a non-American...

I can't see or derive anything positive in the expression 'brick shithouse'.

This is the sort of analysis where plain old-fashioned structuralism can be a great help. In structural terms, we know from the work of anthropologists like Mary Douglas, that the opposite of Purity is not impurity, but Danger and similarly, the opposite of impurity is not Purity, but Safety. It is in working out these constructive/constituitive discontinuities that Structuralism has done its most distinctive work. In structuralist terms, the shit in "built like a brick shithouse" indicates the safety of a joking relationship as well as indicating the dangerous side of the gaze (slipping into Lacanian terms) as well as indicating that there is more than one continuum overwhich the terms of an acknowledged desire or gaze might run: it might run into jokes, it might run into sex, it might run into the ambiguities of avoidance, it might run into trouble, ie some shit, ie some danger.

Thank you for this, Sokal. I think I'm with you here. When my brain has finally sorted it all out I think I might find it fun to hunt up Kiwi expressions and see if it applies.

Higgins · Apr 12, 2007

Defensive Vulgarity

kdnxdr said:
well..........whatever it all boils down to, it's still vulgar!

A bit. But you might want to excuse it on the grounds that it may be in some way protective in that it does a little bit of turning the evil eye (apotraic shit) and a little bit of hyperbole ( over-built shit house, good bricks, manly Phallic? solidity in a womanly form) and a little bit of protective joking/avoidance politeness (more apotraic shit).

Higgins · Apr 12, 2007

Mary Douglas and Edmund Leach

pdr said:
I can't see or derive anything positive in the expression 'brick shithouse'.

This is the sort of analysis where plain old-fashioned structuralism can be a great help. In structural terms, we know from the work of anthropologists like Mary Douglas, that the opposite of Purity is not impurity, but Danger and similarly, the opposite of impurity is not Purity, but Safety. It is in working out these constructive/constituitive discontinuities that Structuralism has done its most distinctive work. In structuralist terms, the shit in "built like a brick shithouse" indicates the safety of a joking relationship as well as indicating the dangerous side of the gaze (slipping into Lacanian terms) as well as indicating that there is more than one continuum overwhich the terms of an acknowledged desire or gaze might run: it might run into jokes, it might run into sex, it might run into the ambiguities of avoidance, it might run into trouble, ie some shit, ie some danger.

Thank you for this, Sokal. I think I'm with you here. When my brain has finally sorted it all out I think I might find it fun to hunt up Kiwi expressions and see if it applies.

I've cited Mary Douglas, but in some ways my points here are closer to the forthright structuralism of Edmund Leach. I met Edmund Leach in the early 1980s...a totally brilliant guy even if he did kind of look like a giant, skinny Frankensteinian Monster at the time. A good role model for the elderly, anyway...very active, if frightening.... Anyway, especially on the topic of discontinuities and taboos and so on, a quick peek at The Essential Edmund Leach, Volume 2 Culture and Human Nature, ed Stephen Hugh-Jones and James Laidlaw, 2000....is just the thing for differential taboo calculations esp page 157 which is in the middle of a structuralist discussion of Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel frescos.

kdnxdr · Apr 12, 2007

Sokal, without the education to know exactly what you're talking about but understanding essentially what you are saying, I would like to venture my own opinion of what is being said in the term "brick shit-house" when referencing a woman.

I'm assuming that the term "brick shithouse" was coined sometime before the advent of indoor plumbing. In most cases, I would also assume that most people who owned a "shithouse" had it constructed from wood, brick being more expensive and probably not readily available to the average person. I also suspect that if a person was able to afford brick, that person would first have a home constructed and then the "shithouse". In my mind, a "brick shithouse" would almost be a luxury if not frivilous, culturally speaking.

Also, often in my lifetime, I have heard of the toilet being referenced as a throne, particularly a man's throne, as in "he is on the throne".

Given these thoughts, plus the fact that a man would have been primarily responsible for the construction of a "shithouse", I think a "brick shithouse" would be a man's vanity. For all the outdoor toilets that I've used, and being a woman, I can't think of very many women that would ever think of a shithouse as a vanity. Given the construction of dresses previous to the 1900's, chamber pots worked much better.

With the cinching of waists and the delicacies of the victorian period, I would think a "thick" woman who was a bit more "rural"would be a type of woman who was considered built like a "brick shithouse". If that were true, the "shithouse" would be something that represented the unrestricted fornicating man who had no respect or value for a woman except that she was utilitarian and common.

Just my thoughts.

Higgins · Apr 12, 2007

Possibly the opposite

kdnxdr said:
Sokal, without the education to know exactly what you're talking about but understanding essentially what you are saying, I would like to venture my own opinion of what is being said in the term "brick shit-house" when referencing a woman.

I'm assuming that the term "brick shithouse" was coined sometime before the advent of indoor plumbing. In most cases, I would also assume that most people who owned a "shithouse" had it constructed from wood, brick being more expensive and probably not readily available to the average person. I also suspect that if a person was able to afford brick, that person would first have a home constructed and then the "shithouse". In my mind, a "brick shithouse" would almost be a luxury if not frivilous, culturally speaking.

Also, often in my lifetime, I have heard of the toilet being referenced as a throne, particularly a man's throne, as in "he is on the throne".

Given these thoughts, plus the fact that a man would have been primarily responsible for the construction of a "shithouse", I think a "brick shithouse" would be a man's vanity. For all the outdoor toilets that I've used, and being a woman, I can't think of very many women that would ever think of a shithouse as a vanity. Given the construction of dresses previous to the 1900's, chamber pots worked much better.

With the cinching of waists and the delicacies of the victorian period, I would think a "thick" woman who was a bit more "rural"would be a type of woman who was considered built like a "brick shithouse". If that were true, the "shithouse" would be something that represented the unrestricted fornicating man who had no respect or value for a woman except that she was utilitarian and common.

Just my thoughts.

I think the figure of speech works in more or less a series of ways that are all opposite to what you have proposed. First, as Robbinae says, the term was first applied to men. In the case of men other brick something houses were referred to ...perhaps as Euphemisms. It is significant that in the US the shift to having "brick shithouse" apply in a complemetary way to women began in the 1930s as more people got indoor plumbing. A "brick shithouse" is not a man's vanity...it is his defensive hyperbole, built out of a lot of perhaps slightly nervous jokes: the transfer of the term from one sex to another, the implied excess of a very well-built shithouse, the acknowledgement of the perils of Purity and danger (shit and bricks).

pdr · Apr 12, 2007

My instinctive reaction...

to that, Sokal, is 'Knickers! Brick shithouse is just a classic example of Male Chauvinism.'

But that's simply because I haven't looked at it carfeully yet. I think my reaction is because the expression was transferred from describing males to describing females, and there's been a long history of male compliments turned into MCP comments against females by transferring them from men to women.

Higgins · Apr 13, 2007

MCP-ism

pdr said:
to that, Sokal, is 'Knickers! Brick shithouse is just a classic example of Male Chauvinism.'

But that's simply because I haven't looked at it carfeully yet. I think my reaction is because the expression was transferred from describing males to describing females, and there's been a long history of male compliments turned into MCP comments against females by transferring them from men to women.

I'm sure it could be used as a bit of MCP-gery and perhaps that was the whole point originally. Moreover if it sounds like that to you then that is what it is to you. On the other hand while or phrase or a scene from a movie or a song might be seen by women as simple piggery, this doesn't mean that the piggery doesn't have some structure and a lot of what seems like pure piggery may infact be constructed more as defenses against the ambiguities of desire and the constructive transfer of nebulous desire into useful social currency at least at the level of having something "clever" to say other than the more natural response of an incoherent growl.

kdnxdr · Apr 13, 2007

I've been thinking about the "joking" aspect of what you have been saying. It seems to me that often times, "joking" is used as a cover-up for insult and that if one is "just joking" is affords one a license to insult and get away with it.

pdr · Apr 13, 2007

I know!

pure piggery may infact be constructed more as defenses against the ambiguities of desire and the constructive transfer of nebulous desire into useful social currency at least at the level of having something "clever" to say other than the more natural response of an incoherent growl.

Loved that, Sokal! But it does not and cannot excuse the verbalisation of it. If we are to be human and not animal then we have to exercise our choices and 'saying nowt' is a bloody good choice.

I have enjoyed thinking about analysing the expression, Sokal. But I think you can analyse and be serious about some things which are outright unacceptable.

I have enjoyed trying to follow through the whys and wherefores but I feel it's a bit of a whitewash to this to things best left unsaid.

What about kdnxdr's (may I abbreviate that to kdn in future?) comments re jokes?

Higgins · Apr 13, 2007

Explaining or Excusing

kdnxdr said:
I've been thinking about the "joking" aspect of what you have been saying. It seems to me that often times, "joking" is used as a cover-up for insult and that if one is "just joking" is affords one a license to insult and get away with it.

pdr said:
pure piggery may infact be constructed more as defenses against the ambiguities of desire and the constructive transfer of nebulous desire into useful social currency at least at the level of having something "clever" to say other than the more natural response of an incoherent growl.

Loved that, Sokal! But it does not and cannot excuse the verbalisation of it. If we are to be human and not animal then we have to exercise our choices and 'saying nowt' is a bloody good choice.

I have enjoyed thinking about analysing the expression, Sokal. But I think you can analyse and be serious about some things which are outright unacceptable.

I have enjoyed trying to follow through the whys and wherefores but I feel it's a bit of a whitewash to this to things best left unsaid.

What about kdnxdr's (may I abbreviate that to kdn in future?) comments re jokes?

I tend to slip pretty quickly into ethnological jargon. "Jokes" and "Joking" in ethnology are assumed to be defensive or displacement behaviors...rather like myths about the origin of dead in their own small way...ie attempts to use symbols to patch up problematic areas of the symbolic cosmos. "Brick shithouse" is an absolutely perfect case of this. I'm not saying it is a nice thing to say, I'm just saying it is a perfect case for understanding how a single joke or myth or figure of speech can pull together many elements of the social, linguistic, cultural and sexual worlds.
To give a less good example, if I say that a representation shows a Mayan Lord in the process of ritually cutting holes in his penis with sting ray spines to assist in his hallucinagenic-assisted communication with with his ancestors-as-celestial beings...I'm not suggesting that that is a good thing to do or even that there are celestial ancestor spirits...I'm just offering a description...and if I went further into it, perhaps an analysis or an explanation of the symbols involved. It's the same with "brick shithouse" except that "brick shithouse" is a more elegant example of "cosmic" symbols or implied continua/discontinua at work in constructing the meanings of everyday life.

kdnxdr · Apr 13, 2007

If I were a woman who was the recipient of such a "compliment" or overheard myself being referenced as a "brick shithouse", I would be shamefully embarrassed and would feel that whomever referenced me as such was a barbarian and someone to be avoided.

I'm curious as to when this term actually came into use. I'm also curious as to what part of the social strata utilized brick shithouses. My guess would be that the term came into use in the mid to late 1800's and they actually held a small time period. Latrines were probably quite common for public and private use as well as various types of pots and pans for indoor use. For enclosed facilities prior to indoor plumbing, I believe the common models were typically wood.

The metamorphosis of language

kdnxdr

One of the most important people in the world

Silver King

Megalops Erectus

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Silver King

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kdnxdr

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Megalops Erectus

Higgins

Silver King

Megalops Erectus

Higgins

robeiae

Touch and go

Higgins

robeiae

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kdnxdr

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pdr

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Higgins

pdr

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kdnxdr

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pdr

Higgins

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