How does language affect culture?

ColoradoGuy · Apr 10, 2007

How does the language spoken in a culture affect the culture? English, for example, has no gender with its nouns -- does this affect English speakers' view of gender? German capitalizes all nouns -- does this contribute to what always seemed to me to be an excess of abstract concept nouns, which somehow seem more impressive when capitalized (e.g. Gestalt, Weltanschauung, Sturm und Drang). Romance languages sound so, well, romantic when spoken -- Dutch sounds to me as if the speaker is clearing their throat of a big chunk of mucous. After all, just compare two versions of "I love you," and say them out loud: je t'aime (French, which I don't speak) vs. Ich liebe dich (German, which I speak a little). One sounds to me like music, the other -- definitely not music.

What about cultures in which many languages are spoken?

aruna · Apr 10, 2007

Very interesting question.
English is my native language, I speak German well, and my French and Spanish are tolerable but a bit rusty. I know that each language gives me a totally different "feel" and attitude.

I find that definitely, the German language reflects the mentality I find here: orderly, precise, meticulous, following the rules. I'll go into this more later - have to run.

poetinahat · Apr 11, 2007

Interesting observation, aruna -- and fine thread topic. Is it the language that influences the culture, or is it vice versa? I'd suspect it's some of both.

I can imagine a bevy of diverting cultural offshoots from this topic: Language vs. ... :

music/dance (could samba music ever have originated in Russia?)
politics (will countries with more strident, strong-sounding languages be more prone to revolution?)
food (borscht, fleischkase, wiener schnitzel, tempura, vichysoisse)

Deleted member 42 · Apr 11, 2007

What about a language like Japanese which has very codified courtesy built into it, and differences for male speakers and female speakers

robeiae · Apr 11, 2007

poetinahat said:
Is it the language that influences the culture, or is it vice versa? I'd suspect it's some of both.

I suspect you're right. But which one was the initial influence?

Beyond that, I would suggest that a given culture or society reflects patterns that are not always what they appear to be and/or are not always being followed without awareness of what they are. We tend to accept cultural differences as reflective of cognitive differences, I think. And that's a mistake, imo. There is an awfully lot to be said for "going with the flow."

MacAllister · Apr 11, 2007

I'm fascinated by the fact that there is vocabulary in some languages for abstracts, with no corresponding vocabulary in other languages. That's just...remarkable.

Shwebb · Apr 11, 2007

Man, I wish Shweta would check in here.

MacAllister · Apr 11, 2007

Well, send her a link, then! And we could, umm, beg, maybe?

Shwebb · Apr 11, 2007

I can do that! After all, she's my Shwiamese twin. *runs away*

robeiae · Apr 11, 2007

That's shwell.

Angelinity · Apr 11, 2007

my persona changes when i switch to another language -- friends who've watched me have told me so, often chuckling.

since i believe that the culture of a people is shaped by outside influences -- geography, topography, climate, abundance or scarcity, etc. -- and this is/was there before 'language' became the main form of communication, in my own little mind it follows that language is shaped by culture.

Changes in living conditions usually result in changes in language -- note the street slang reflected in rapp music for example. Rapp was preceeded by Jazz and blues, but those are no longer the mainstream form of artistic expression. Okay, this is music, but still a form of language / expression, methinks.

Once rooted, language change can broaden its reach by effecting changes in the culture of other people -- rapp is now emulated by those not living in the culture that birthed it. i guess the two are ultimately linked and impact on each other.

Hell, everything is connected, we all exist in the same lil bubble...

KCathy · Apr 11, 2007

Chela, my Spanish teacher in Ecuador, loved over-analyzing the symbiotic relationship between language and culture as much as I did, and we had some fascinating discussions about different things as she taught me.

Take, for example, dropping a pencil in English. We'd say, "I dropped my pencil." In Spanish, they'd say, "Se me cayo el lapiz," which literally means "The pencil dropped from me." Chela would use that as an excuse to discuss how in my culture, we feel like we have more control over the world around us than people in hers did. We DO things. Things happen TO them.

I'm sure some of the theories we came up with were sheerest BS, but it was a blast to talk about them!

Angelinity said:
my persona changes when i switch to another language

Ack--me, too! My personality and freakish sense of humor simply fit into Latin culture better than American culture, and I tend to be a lot more relaxed and to joke more in a place where people think I'm hilarious instead of a couple of beats off. Very, very weird.

Birol · Apr 11, 2007

It seems to me that language is often a reflection of our thoughts, a way of communicating them to others, as well as a way of providing form to abstract concepts. Based on that, language must be a reflection of culture rather than the other way around. It is a way of expressing the abstract courtesies and social nuances which form the culture.

ColoradoGuy · Apr 11, 2007

Birol said:
It seems to me that language is often a reflection of our thoughts, a way of communicating them to others, as well as a way of providing form to abstract concepts. Based on that, language must be a reflection of culture rather than the other way around. It is a way of expressing the abstract courtesies and social nuances which form the culture.

That's pretty much the way I see it, too. But that's a generalization. To me the interesting question is in the details, in how specific attributes of particular languages might relate to the cultures they swim in. Medievalist's Japanese example was interesting -- at least I think of Japanese culture as being more structured than ours, and this may be reflected in the language.

Birol · Apr 11, 2007

Japanese culture is more structured than US culture and structured differently, too.

What I find I'm pondering is the pronoun 'You'. In many languages, there exists a formal 'you' and an informal 'you.' For example, in German, it is Sie and du. If you go with the idea that culture shapes language, then it would be reasonable to argue that the cultures where the informal and formal you is utilized have a more formal structure in place for addressing strangers and people of different strata than English-speaking cultures, but that would be looking at it from a very Americanized perspectived, which is not the culture where the English language was developed.

ColoradoGuy · Apr 11, 2007

Birol said:
Japanese culture is more structured than US culture and structured differently, too.

What I find I'm pondering is the pronoun 'You'. In many languages, there exists a formal 'you' and an informal 'you.' For example, in German, it is Sie and du. If you go with the idea that culture shapes language, then it would be reasonable to argue that the cultures where the informal and formal you is utilized have a more formal structure in place for addressing strangers and people of different strata than English-speaking cultures, but that would be looking at it from a very Americanized perspectived, which is not the culture where the English language was developed.

I'd like one of the linguists around here to tell me when English lost that distinction: after all, it is a Germanic language. Is it present in the various Anglo-Saxon variants? Mediavalist?

As a Quaker I do know that the original reason for Friends' use of thou/thee was that, at least as they saw it, that was the familiar form; "you" was apparently more formal. So they used thou/thee (and still do in a few places) to show their distaste for hierarchy.

robeiae · Apr 11, 2007

Advanced free-market economies and changes in the structure of English property laws, circa 17th century. I kid you not (as a starting point).

pdr · Apr 11, 2007

Interesting...

and right into the 20thC, Master to servant was always to use the thee, thou, form of address but it was pronounced, from Victorian times as ye. I once heard the very old Dowager Duchess thank the porter and then her chauffer with a Thankye when she would say Thank you to her son.

As I understand it, from my Quaker friends in England, they still use thee and thou, informal, personal form of you, to show that all members were brothers and sisters in Christ and no one had 'rank'. Not quite the same as Colorado Guy's reason?

ColoradoGuy · Apr 11, 2007

robeiae said:
I kid you not.

I thought Yoda was the first to talk like that. (Insert smiley). But really? economics did this?

ColoradoGuy · Apr 11, 2007

pdr said:
As I understand it, from my Quaker friends in England, they still use thee and thou, informal, personal form of you, to show that all members were brothers and sisters in Christ and no one had 'rank'. Not quite the same as Colorado Guy's reason?

No, it's a similar reason. I know a few old Quaker ladies who use it. It's called "plain speech." What is interesting about it, though, is that "thee" is often used as the nominative, rather than the accusative case. I've heard endless debates about why that is, debates of interest probably only to Quakers (who love to talk -- and form committees).

kdnxdr · Apr 11, 2007

Might this discussion be similar to the chicken/egg question? Language in common use has a way of "marking" certain expectations of behavior. If a person participates in such specific behavior, language usually reflects that behavior. So, certain use of language prescribes certain behavior and certain behavior initiates certain language.

One example that came to mind: curses like a sailor

cursing was stereotypical of sailors in the past and now cursing has become socially acceptable even by women

KCathy · Apr 11, 2007

Birol said:
What I find I'm pondering is the pronoun 'You'. In many languages, there exists a formal 'you' and an informal 'you.'

Ooh, good one. I found it fascinating that some Ecuadorians had their children refer to them as the proper "usted" instead of the friend/peer "tu" for you. How would the choice of pronoun affect your view of your parents? Or did they just do it because they had to teach their five-year-old not to call the mayor "tu," which would be horribly rude behavior?

The difference reminds me a lot of the variation between forms of address in the South and the North. Southern kids would never DREAM of calling an adult Sam or Mary, and I know people who would get in big trouble for saying "yeah" instead of "Yes, Sir" to their dad. Here in Oregon, friends laughed at me for calling my Grandpa "sir" during our contract Bridge games and teaching my kids to say "sir" and "ma'am" is completely counter-cultural.

Weird, ain't it?

robeiae · Apr 11, 2007

ColoradoGuy said:
But really? economics did this?

C'mon, CG! It's so simple! Maybe you need a refresher course. It's all ball bearings, nowadays. Now you prepare that Fetzer valve with some 3-in-1 oil and some gauze pads, and I'm gonna need 'bout ten quarts of anti-freeze, preferably Prestone. No, no...make that Quaker State.

Sorry. Fletch moment.

But yes, economics. Economic egalitarianism that led to more social egalitarianism and a middle class. Marx, Weber, Locke--take your pick.

ColoradoGuy · Apr 11, 2007

robeiae said:
But yes, economics. Economic egalitarianism that led to more social egalitarianism and a middle class. Marx, Weber, Locke--take your pick.

I don't know -- seems a little broad-brush for me. I don't see a lot of social egalitarianism in seventeenth century England. Maybe a little during the Interregnum (Christopher Hill's World Turned Upside Down and all), but after Charlie Two came back?

robeiae · Apr 11, 2007

ColoradoGuy said:
I don't know -- seems a little broad-brush for me. I don't see a lot of social egalitarianism in seventeenth century England. Maybe a little during the Interregnum (Christopher Hill's World Turned Upside Down and all), but after Charlie Two came back?

Ha! You read me like a book...or we read many of the same books. Something like that.

Sure, it's broadbrush, but look at what you're asking: when did some language become less formal.

Obviously, it didn't become less formal for every person that spoke it at exactly the same moment. In fact, there are some for whom it is still not all that informal.

But what went on in England--and carried over to America--was a change in who was doing the speaking, really. In other words, the middle class found a much larger voice, just as it started to become more sizable and more significant (all inter-related, obviously). The American entrepreneur was no aristocrat either, even when well-educated.

How does language affect culture?

I've seen worse.

On a wing and a prayer

say it loud

Deleted member 42

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'Twas but a dream of thee

She's the creepy-looking dude

'Twas but a dream of thee

She's the creepy-looking dude

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absent

Writer when I grow up

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Around and About

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I've seen worse.

I've seen worse.

One of the most important people in the world

Writer when I grow up

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I've seen worse.

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