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Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 06:00 PM
What kind of gun would a modern-day PI in a mid-sized town carry? He's an ex-cop (knee injury, didn't want a desk job), but so far his jobs have been pretty non-violent.

I know less than nothing about guns, so y'all will give me much to research. :tongue

Thanks!

Cav Guy
04-06-2007, 06:09 PM
BIG personal preference area here. A former cop might go for a small-frame semi-auto in 9mm or .40 cal., possibly a .45 depending on what he carried when he was still on the force.

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 06:18 PM
Okay, I've heard of all those, at least. :rolleyes: That's a start.

Thanks!

alleycat
04-06-2007, 06:18 PM
Any of the modern, "brand name" autos would do in a large enough caliber. You could just make it a Glock since he's an ex-cop; the majority of police forces use Glocks these days (I think, don't quote me on that).

Here's the wiki page on Glocks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 06:19 PM
Yay! I've heard of that too. Perhaps from an Ah-nuld movie.

Vanatru
04-06-2007, 06:45 PM
Other factors to consider are:

1. Local/State laws refrence handgun possesion - ala NY's anti-gun stance
2. Concealed carry laws for that area
3. How does the local PD feel about him and him being armed. Was he on the local PD? Did he get along with the others?
4. How much trouble is really expecting on average? He should have some idea if he was a local LEO to begin with.
5. Preferences. He may not have liked the department issue. They might have .40S&W or Glocks and he thinks they suck. He might want a little .380 he can carry in his coat pocket.
6. Local weather. If he's in Key West, he'd be real obvious packing a Desert Eagle or even a medium frame 9mm. Of course, if he's up in Yankee land with snow and cold, he can have a jacket covering the bulge. You'll have to consider where and how he's packing his pistol.
7. Revolver or automatic are your two choices. Unless he's packing for bear go with a .38 or .357. Or just go with a .357 and you can use .38 in it as well.

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 07:14 PM
Wow, Vanatru, thanks! I'm setting the book in PA, and have already downloaded PI rules and regs for that state. He gets along well with the police. He'll be shooting a lock to rescue my MC at the end, but I'm pretty sure any gun will do that to a cheap apartment house door.

Parkinsonsd
04-06-2007, 08:16 PM
You may want to consider whether your guy is old fashion.
The .38 revolver is the old fashion way to go. It also only has six shots, so if he's getting into a big shoot out, it may notbe proper. But the Smith and Wesson revolver is a very reliable gun. in the souped up .357 magnum, your knockdown rate is something like 96%.

If he's a flat out tough guy, you could go with a .45 ACP. These guns can be souped up for speed and accuracy, and what not, but the frame is kind of big and not a great one for concealed carry. I believe the souped up .45 ammo has a 86% knockdown effectiveness.

Then you have .40 and 9mm. The standards are I don't know what's being used by the military now, the Glock, Beretta or Sig Sauer. The Glock is an ugly gun but it is bomb-proof reliable. The Beretta and and Sig are also considered reliable. The .40 and 9mm in souped up ammo (commonly referred to as +p. A company named Cor-Bon makes good ammo) has either a 93% or 96 % knock-down rate. Glocks, Berettas and Sigs would be used by guys with a more military background.

I don't think .380 isn't a great calliber. I've seen a guy take 5 shots in the belly and keep going. But then again, shot placement is everything. If he had been hit in the head as opposed to the gut, he would have been dead.

A lot of us macho guys see guns as a personal way to express ourselves.

I personally use a pea shooter.

LloydBrown
04-06-2007, 08:19 PM
Lock-shooting is good TV but factually weak. Depending on your work, your audience, and the level of realism you're shooting for (pun intended), you might want to rethink that.

alleycat
04-06-2007, 08:40 PM
One thing to note, callalily, we tend to get a little carried away with any question about guns. It's kind of like asking which dog breed is best, or which car is better; everyone has their own opinion. Don't let us confuse you. At some point, just take what you think will work and go with it.

Higgins
04-06-2007, 08:48 PM
One thing to note, callalily, we tend to get a little carried away with any question about guns. It's kind of like asking which dog breed is best, or which car is better; everyone has their own opinion. Don't let us confuse you. At some point, just take what you think will work and go with it.

I know next to nothing about guns, but I'm arming all my characters with the Makarov 9.03mm. Accurate, reliable, quite small, 8 shot mag, AND the trigger guard is extra big so you can use it with thick gloves.

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 09:21 PM
Lock-shooting is good TV but factually weak. Depending on your work, your audience, and the level of realism you're shooting for (pun intended), you might want to rethink that.

Um... I want realism. He knows the villain is in the MC's apartment and could kill her any moment. He wants in ASAP, but doesn't want to hurt his shoulder or twist his ankle busting in the door. He's still got cop-type muscle.

Okay, all you muscle types--can a guy who can bench-press, say, 200 pounds break in an older, semi-flimsy apartment door with his shoulder? The apartment building would've been built in the 70s and is starting to run to seed.

alleycat
04-06-2007, 09:25 PM
Okay, all you muscle types--can a guy who can bench-press, say, 200 pounds break in an older, semi-flimsy apartment door with his shoulder? The apartment building would've been built in the 70s and is starting to run to seed.
This is one I can definitely answer. I've done it. I went right through a door with oak jambs and double locks. I splintered it all to hell. Took maybe two seconds. It would have only taken one, but I hit it once and when it didn't give . . . I hit it harder and with my full force. The poor door was barely on one hinge when I got through with it.

Parkinsonsd
04-06-2007, 09:29 PM
A good kick over the lock would do it. I've broken down a door with my shoulder once, and it's doable, but once you're in, you're not ready, you're open and you're vulnerable. Better to kick it in.

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 09:32 PM
This is one I can definitely answer. I've done it. I went right through a door with oak jambs and double locks. I splintered it all to hell. Took maybe two seconds.

[pictures your physique]

drool... :e2faint:

[slaps self]

Okay; I'm better now.

I bow to your wisdom and experience. The Big Strong Man will bust in the door with his bod. This will make a good contrast to the scene a moent later when the villain's weenie brother trips him as he enters the bedroom where blood is about to be spilled.

Thank you! I'm new to writing mysteries--usually write horror--and these characters are giving me no rest.

alleycat
04-06-2007, 09:34 PM
Parkinsonsd does have a good point. I think police usually kick a door in, or use that ram thingy of theirs.

Parkinsonsd
04-06-2007, 09:36 PM
Hey what? You're not drooling over my physique? I broke a door down too!

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 09:37 PM
I can start drooling again if you need the ego boost.

OT--wonder how many gov't bots will add me to their lists when I start researching guns on the Net. *sigh*

Parkinsonsd
04-06-2007, 09:38 PM
I do. I am that pathetic.

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 09:43 PM
:Hail: :e2faint:
:Hail: :e2faint:
:Hail: :e2faint:
:Hail: :e2faint:
:Hail: :e2faint:

:e2brows: :e2brows: :e2brows: :e2brows: :e2brows:

Better? If you happen to resemble Sam Neill or Timothy Dalton or... sigh... Gerard Butler, I can add a page or two more of these.

(says the woman who'll be celebrating her 20th anniversary in Sept.!)

Lycius
04-06-2007, 10:16 PM
Lock-shooting is good TV but factually weak. Depending on your work, your audience, and the level of realism you're shooting for (pun intended), you might want to rethink that.

I 100% agree with this. First off he would be arrested for discharging a firearm in a residence for shooting the lock.

Cops don't shoot locks, they have sledges or shoulders for that because of stray rounds.

Alot of this would depend on the attitude of the character, as previous posters have said and what time period.

Jamesaritchie
04-06-2007, 10:26 PM
One thing to note, callalily, we tend to get a little carried away with any question about guns. It's kind of like asking which dog breed is best, or which car is better; everyone has their own opinion. Don't let us confuse you. At some point, just take what you think will work and go with it.

Lot of opinions, but also lots of facts based on real shootings, one shot kills that come in, autopsy results, reliability trials, etc. There are better and worse handguns, just as there are far better dogs for doing a specific thing.

Jamesaritchie
04-06-2007, 10:27 PM
Most carry more than one, depending on where they're going, what they're doing, etc.

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 10:34 PM
I 100% agree with this. First off he would be arrested for discharging a firearm in a residence for shooting the lock.

Cops don't shoot locks, they have sledges or shoulders for that because of stray rounds.

Alot of this would depend on the attitude of the character, as previous posters have said and what time period.

Thank you!



Posted by Jamesaritchie:
Lot of opinions, but also lots of facts based on real shootings, one shot kills that come in, autopsy results, reliability trials, etc. There are better and worse handguns, just as there are far better dogs for doing a specific thing.

Most carry more than one, depending on where they're going, what they're doing, etc.


Thank you!

I am truly grateful for this wealth of information. Y'all are a terrific bunch of people.

rugcat
04-06-2007, 10:35 PM
A good kick over the lock would do it. I've broken down a door with my shoulder once, and it's doable, but once you're in, you're not ready, you're open and you're vulnerable. Better to kick it in.I too have kicked in doors. Couldn't agree more--slamming into a door with your shoulder is not the way to go.

Vanatru
04-06-2007, 10:50 PM
As was mentioned prior.......don't shot the lock with a pistol. It might splinter the door, and damage the lock but if it's a decent quality lock, it'll stand fast.

Professionals use a ram/sledge or a shotgun. Ram/sledge for the lock.......shotgun for the door hinges. Sometimes they'll use oversized crowbars.

Does the MC have to go through the door? What about the classic Hollywood - fire-escape-look-through-window technique. Gets 'em everytime in the movies. Without fail.

What's the bad guys claim to fame? In the case of some criminals, the houses will have an iron bar leading down from the door knob to the floor to reinforce it and making ramming it bad. Others will re-enforce the door from the inside so it's tougher than it looks as you approach it.

Are you wanting to make the villian a real bad ass? Or just kinda so-so?

Tiger
04-06-2007, 11:02 PM
True... Still, the first gun the OP might grab might be a .50 Desert Eagle.

IMO, a mid-sized town PI--not an LEO who does not get gang activity calls or have to clear houses would not need a large, one-shot-drop cannon with a 17-round mag. and detatchable shoulder stock.

I'd think he'd need the thing to get out of jams; maybe just to show to people to get them to back off.

I'd go for a small .38, or maybe a compact auto like a Kahr, or a Sig 239--something with 5-7 rounds that's comfortable to carry in an inside the waistband holster.

JMO

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 11:10 PM
I'd think he'd need the thing to get out of jams; maybe just to show to people to get them to back off.

I'd go for a small .38, or maybe a compact auto like a Kahr, or a Sig 239--something with 5-7 rounds that's comfortable to carry in an inside the waistband holster.

JMO

:Thumbs:

Vanatru
04-06-2007, 11:13 PM
IMO, a mid-sized town PI--not an LEO who does not get gang activity calls or have to clear houses would not need a large, one-shot-drop cannon with a 17-round mag. and detatchable shoulder stock.

JMO

UNLESS..........he was a cop on the edge with attitude, that made lots of enemies. The bad guys are coming for him and he's ready!

To go even more over the top...............it's a gang of bad fae drug dealers..........so it'll have to be a concealable flintlock w/iron-lead rounds.

Oh yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:wag:

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 11:15 PM
Does the MC have to go through the door? What about the classic Hollywood - fire-escape-look-through-window technique. Gets 'em everytime in the movies. Without fail.

What's the bad guys claim to fame? In the case of some criminals, the houses will have an iron bar leading down from the door knob to the floor to reinforce it and making ramming it bad. Others will re-enforce the door from the inside so it's tougher than it looks as you approach it.

Are you wanting to make the villian a real bad ass? Or just kinda so-so?

MC lives in a cheap apt. She can't afford better. Rescuer (her partner) comes to the rescue because villain (psycho stalker) left him a note about MC's demise that he found earlier than villain planned.

This happens in MC's apartment, not villain's house.

Ho-hum, you say? Here's my hook: MC is an ex-nun trying to make it in the real world and wondering how the heck to reconcile faith, honesty, etc. with lying to get info, stopping violence to the PI firm's clients, fending off advances by said client, and being confronted with the choice to do violence to the stalker or get her own throat slashed.

Anyway--Thank you, everyone, again! You all rock!

Calla Lily
04-06-2007, 11:16 PM
To go even more over the top...............it's a gang of bad fae drug dealers..........so it'll have to be a concealable flintlock w/iron-lead rounds.


I like it!

Oh, no...flintlocks now?! I can't take the pressure.:flag:

Kentuk
04-06-2007, 11:31 PM
If I carried a gun but thought there was little chance I would ever need to use it I would go with a compact semi-automatic standard 9mm or even a .380. If I were cheap and didn't want to ante up 500 pluss $ I would use an old .38. Generally aim and a steady hand trumps speed and size.

Tiger
04-07-2007, 12:07 AM
UNLESS..........he was a cop on the edge with attitude, that made lots of enemies. The bad guys are coming for him and he's ready!

To go even more over the top...............it's a gang of bad fae drug dealers..........so it'll have to be a concealable flintlock w/iron-lead rounds.

Oh yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:wag:

Blunderbuss! Fill it with nails... Better yet, lime jello. Use a morgenstern as a back up weapon.

There's no school like the old school, by damn!

Lycius
04-07-2007, 12:24 AM
I like it!

Oh, no...flintlocks now?! I can't take the pressure.:flag:

Screw flintlocks! If you were truly hardcore it would be a zipgun made by Al Capone and found in his "Vault" by Geraldo Rivera!

Then you use shards of wood from the cross as ammo!

alleycat
04-07-2007, 12:43 AM
I go away for an hour or two and come back to find everyone talking about flintocks and blunderbusses. Sheesh.

Frankly, you can't beat a good, old-fashioned lead pipe.

Vanatru
04-07-2007, 01:02 AM
I go away for an hour or two and come back to find everyone talking about flintocks and blunderbusses. Sheesh.

Frankly, you can't beat a good, old-fashioned lead pipe.

Ma'am, is that a lead pipe with a cap on the end, or just screw threads?

Do you prefer the over the head swing, or roundhouse type? :)

Tiger
04-07-2007, 01:06 AM
I go away for an hour or two and come back to find everyone talking about flintocks and blunderbusses. Sheesh.

"Blunderbi"?

alleycat
04-07-2007, 01:09 AM
"Blunderbi"?
Only the famed Beretta blunderbuss.

Speaking of which, I have two Berettas. One is a little .25 (a gift from my dad). At least I think we can all agree that that wouldn't be a good choice for a main weapon to carry.

Tiger
04-07-2007, 01:26 AM
Nothing wrong with the .25, IMO. The MC is a PI, not a street cop.

Even 007 carried a .25 Beretta before Q set him up with his Walther PPK--and, that was only a .32.

alleycat
04-07-2007, 01:29 AM
Even 007 carried a .25 Beretta before Q set him up with his Walther PPK . . .
That I didn't know (I never read the books, only saw the movies). I knew about the PPK, but not the Beretta. It's a cute little gun. I've had it for a long time; I never have fired it very much.

Tiger
04-07-2007, 02:43 AM
I think it was at the start of "From Russia With Love." Is yours one of those with the tip up barrel? Good idea, that.

alleycat
04-07-2007, 03:14 AM
Yes, you just push a small release on the side of the pistol and the barrel pops up.

I've seen people screw around with ones like it and not be able to figure out the clip release. The release looks like the screw holding the grips on.

Popeyesays
04-07-2007, 05:23 AM
Only the famed Beretta blunderbuss.

Speaking of which, I have two Berettas. One is a little .25 (a gift from my dad). At least I think we can all agree that that wouldn't be a good choice for a main weapon to carry.

Concealability was the big issue. The berretta even had the hand grips removed to reduce it's width.

But it's a pop-gun, and someone you shoot with it is likely to force-feed it to you before the bullet kills him.

The PPK was .380 or the European 9mm. The standard European Police Weapon until the last fifteen years or so was the .32.

Regards,

Scott

Tiger
04-09-2007, 10:22 PM
The PPK was .380 or the European 9mm. The standard European Police Weapon until the last fifteen years or so was the .32.

Regards,

Scott

Not to nitpick, but 7.65mm is a .32--not .380.

Lycius
04-10-2007, 12:24 AM
A PPK is a .380

And agreed on the kick vs shoulder. Never took out a door when expecting to be shot so didn't consider the lack of balance when coming through.

Tiger
04-10-2007, 02:14 AM
A PPK doesn't only come in .380ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol). 7.65--as was specified in "Dr. No" among other places--is .32 cal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PPK

Lycius
04-10-2007, 04:18 PM
A PPK doesn't only come in .380ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol). 7.65--as was specified in "Dr. No" among other places--is .32 cal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_PPK

That's the PPK/S

Same source: The PPK is currently available only in 380 ACP and has a 6+1 capacity.

Calla Lily
04-10-2007, 04:30 PM
I love all this great new stuff I'm learning! Thanks, everyone. :Clap:

Tiger
04-10-2007, 11:14 PM
That's the PPK/S

Same source: The PPK is currently available only in 380 ACP and has a 6+1 capacity.

"The PPK is currently only available in 380 ACP" ≠ "A PPK is a .380". The original reference to the PPK was the one that James Bond carried in his movies--which was produced in, what, 1963?. They never referred to the thing by caliber, but in mm: 7.65, which = .32.

To properly refute any of this, you should find a source that either says that 7.65 mm does not equal .32 cal, or that the PPK was never chambered for that round.

Lycius
04-10-2007, 11:45 PM
My comment was directed at this statement "A PPK doesn't only come in .380ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)."

I countered it with your own source.

My statement wasn't concerning PPK's in 63 or earlier and I didn't refute your 7.65mm = .32 statement.

You are correct that Bond's PPK was a 7.65mm but that is not what I was responding to. I guess if we were to nitpick I posted because the above quote isn't correct. If you'd used "didn't only come in .380" I wouldn't have even responded.

As a matter of fact, the Walther PPK ONLY comes in .380 since 1968.

Tiger
04-11-2007, 12:56 AM
My comment was directed at this statement "A PPK doesn't only come in .380ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)."

I countered it with your own source. Uh-uh. The rest of my quote--which you left out here--referenced the James Bond movie that I'd referenced earlier.


My statement wasn't concerning PPK's in 63 or earlier and I didn't refute your 7.65mm = .32 statement.

And I never stated categorically that PPKs are .32s or that they are not chambered for .380. I simply said that the 7.65mm that is referenced in the Bond movies equals .32 cal. You said "A PPK is .380."


You are correct that Bond's PPK was a 7.65mm but that is not what I was responding to.

If you'd read the rest of what you yourself cut and pasted, you'd see that that's exactly what you responded to--incorrectly. And, you also said: "That's the PPK/S"--which wasn't/isn't true.


I guess if we were to nitpick I posted because the above quote isn't correct. If you'd used "didn't only come in .380" I wouldn't have even responded.

Wouldn't have responded? That was a response to: "A PPK is .380."


As a matter of fact, the Walther PPK ONLY comes in .380 since 1968.

I didn't know that.

Lycius
04-11-2007, 03:23 AM
Good lord, whatever man.

You are correct about pre-1968 PPK's and I am correct for post 68 PPK's.

Deal with it.

Vanatru
04-11-2007, 03:43 AM
Gentleman, grab you pistolas. This has the making of a duel.

It'll be a one shot event. Head and groin shots only.

Tickets are avaible at DuelMaster

rugcat
04-11-2007, 03:55 AM
I own a Walther PPK/S. And I'm staying out of it.

Tiger
04-11-2007, 04:49 AM
None of these sissy kevlar cups neither.

Tiger
04-11-2007, 04:50 AM
Good lord, whatever man.

You are correct about pre-1968 PPK's and I am correct for post 68 PPK's.

Deal with it.

That ain't what this was about. You deal, hombree.

By the way, I'd love to see you in traffic court. Seriously.

Berry
04-11-2007, 04:57 AM
Cops don't shoot locks, they have sledges or shoulders for that because of stray rounds.


Further to this, the Mythbusters actually tested this; they took an assortment of locks and guns and tried to bust them open. Didn't work very well, though high-powered rifles were able to destroy cheap locks (if I recall correctly; my Google-fu is weak today)

Lycius
04-11-2007, 04:28 PM
That ain't what this was about. You deal, hombree.

By the way, I'd love to see you in traffic court. Seriously.

Court is a touch more important than dealing with some anonymous poster on a message board.

You deciding that this was about a 40 year old pistol is your opinion. I responded to a statement that in modern terms is incorrect. I don't live in the 60's currently so I couldn't care less if the PPK came in .32 then. Today, as in 2007, a new PPK only comes chambered in .380, in the USA where I live.

Where I am in error is the context of your comment. You are talking about pre-ban 40 year old pistols and I am not.

As of the present, which is the current time that we all exist, your statement is incorrect. Unless it's a custom job you cannot get a PPK from Walther, in .32. You can get a PPK/S in .32 but NOT a PPK.

Done with this idiotic argument now. Have a nice day.

Tiger
04-12-2007, 01:25 AM
I'm not a nerd with a gun fetish harping on technicalities here; just someone who appreciates being corrected on things I've actually written.

"...Q set him up with his Walther PPK--and that was a .32."

Correct? Or not correct?

Idiotic argument? I agree.

Vanatru
04-12-2007, 05:21 AM
You guys are nerds

Calla Lily
04-12-2007, 06:58 AM
Okay, everybody, play nice! This thread is the top one listed in the "What people want to know about" section in the Absolute Markets email I got today.

:idea:I'll knit gun cozies for all of you if you promise to behave.