If only... When I...

I could probably publish with the small press for a long time. I've made recent inroads into quite a few editor's hearts, at different houses,that are looking for my next project. That feels good, no doubt about it. But what I need for validation is the great breakout novel with a large outfit--one that provides an advance and major bookstore placement, all of course, repped and set up by my agent. That is my next milestone and what I am striving for.

My roomates say that my next major goal should be a screenplay and a movie deal. They are real dreamers.

Tri

Good, interesting question you pose.

Personally, I'm in the final rewrite at the agency level before my manuscript goes out to the publishers. This is the sixth rewrite I've undertaken since I signed almost a year ago -- so that's how I've been striving toward the goal.

I think seeking outside validation is key if you want to be published, because writing is such a solitary task, and it so often seems like we're working in a vacuum. Who else besides an outsider is going to give you feedback on whether or not your work has merit?

The funny thing was, it was coming to AW that did it for me. I'm pretty narcissistic when it comes to publishing, in that I always go "yeah, but..." when I get published. Yeah, but I know the editor so it doesn't count. Or yeah, but they're a small magazine, so it doesn't really count. Or, yeah, but I don't think I could sell twice to them.

So publishing doesn't give me warm fuzzies. But being friends with a bunch of intelligent people who write, that does the trick. Somewhere in there, I thought "I'm a writer, because I write, and I know people in my field. Good enough."

Good topic. I think outside validation is valid even though we know we shouldn't seek outside validation. We should write for ourselves. The reality, though, is that the publishing business relies on certain level of validation: the agent/editor/publisher thinks your book is worth a look, or a fat advance check; the readers think you're a good writer or your book is worth a read; the committee thinks you deserve an award. So realistically, we do think about outside validation. We don't really just write for ourselves, when publication is concerned.

For me, there are different stages. I guess getting the book FINISHED is an accomplishment for me -- that I can actually do this. Getting it traditionally published is another milestone -- that I can actually sell this; that it's something other people will want to read.

The next milestone, I suppose, is to gain some respect as a career writer, whether it is to get more books published by reputable publishers, or getting that big fat check from that big fat publishing house. The reality is, there is a definitely a perception difference between getting published by an unknown small press and Random House. The big league vs. the minor league. In the world of publishing, there's still a pecking order, I suppose. You may always feel you're not good enough because you're not JK Rowling or Stephen King, or you're only mid-list at a big house, or you're only with a small publisher, or you're only e-published, or... I can definitely feel it. There are times when I feel that people don't really "respect" me as a writer because I'm not with a big house. I try to brush that off.

Personally, I seek different things and I strive for them, maybe not equally. I do have publishing goals and but I am not in a big hurry to achieving them NOW. Eventually. I want to do it all (commercial fic, lit fic, movies...) But I do prefer to write things I enjoy, for personally fulfillment, and they may or may not be commercial. My next endeavor would probably be some kind of a thriller -- and not because I am going to "sell out" or try to make it big, but because that story is calling me and I really like the idea and as a writer, I strive to write something that excites me, whether it's a personal journey to Africa or a thriller about space aliens. I think that's really what drives me, and getting that big fat check and a movie deal would be gravy. As an artist/writer, I don't think I'll be satisfied with just attaining certain status quo.

I'm technically an idealist, but there's enough of a realist/pragmatist in me that it becomes a balancing act for me.

I just want to hold my own book in my hands. That seems less outside validation and more "Wee! I made this!" I would like it available for others because I think it's such a great story. But I don't know that that's what really motivates me. Must think on this.

ETA: In regards to what Maestro said, I'm still trying to finish my work. One goal at a time.

I want to be published.

There. I said it.

You're not supposed to want it. Why, I don't know. I suppose there are those who think aiming for publication detracts from dedication to your art. Sod 'em, I say. I want to be published so I can see my name on the cover of a book. I want to be published in the hopes those who said I'd never make it will see it - possibly even read it. (One of the reasons I won't use a pen name - recognition by school bullies and old teachers).

And yes, it would make me feel good. Some writers tell me that what I want is success; well, I hate being told what I want. I want to be published so I can feel good about myself and my writing, and know that I do something well enough to make other people want to be a part of it.

So yes, it would make me feel validated. F***ing fantastic, if you want the truth. Getting the book finished has never been a target for me; I always knew I could do that. What I want is to have other people want to read something I made.

I had a professor who had two lit fics published by small presses (in more than 15 years), but hardly anyone read it and when you say his name, you'd ask, "Who?" And somehow I don't want to be like that for the rest of my writing career. If that makes me shallow, I guess I am.

When I write for publication, I want A LOT of people to read it. Many may not like it, but I still want them to read it (when I saw that the copies at my local stores were all sold out, I was very happy and satisfied). And to say, "Raymond Wong wrote these." Not necessarily fame, but recognition. Yeah, I do sometimes think that's shallow, but I accept that.

(I realize these questions weren't pointed at me, but I thought I'd answer 'em anyway. Nosier than Jimmy Durante)

Birol said:

What happens when you achieve that goal? Will it be enough for you? Will you be content with that accomplishment?

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I would hope, and imagine not. First it's I just need to get a short story published. Then I'm an author, I'm a real author. But then you get a short story published and the mystery goes out of that accomplishment, and so you start thinking A novel. If I can publish a novel, I've Arrived as a writer.

Experiment is a joy and delight for a writer, I think. We're otters. Give us a fish, and we won't do the same trick again, we'll try to do something different and cooler to get another fish. I am, anyway.

Birol said:

How do you balance doing what you enjoy with "wanting to do it all." Do you see wanting to do it all as a realistic, achievable goal? If your main purpose is writing things you enjoy, what is the purpose of pursuing the wide range of venues?

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I tend to gravitate toward the "wanting to do it all" end of the spectrum too. My reasoning is that, if I haven't done it yet, then it's still a mystery to me, and that means it fascinates me. There's always more magic in something before you do it.

(Writing is the only thing that's consistently held my interest once I've explored it; I've been writing a long time without losing interest.)

I don't know about Ray, for me at least, it's all writing. It's just stretching to see where my writing can go. I can write short stories, sure, cool beans. I can't write novels? Why not? I don't have the experience. So I want to learn.

What about comic books? Radio dramas? Nothing much with them, so I want to see what I can do to tell an interesting story in those forms. What about stage plays? Video games? Music?

I like telling stories. I have my mediums I'm comfortable with (prose, really) but I like to experiment. It's fun to stretch in directions you wouldn't normally go.

For me, anyway.

maestrowork said:

I had a professor who had two lit fics published by small presses, but hardly anyone read it and when you say his name, you'd ask, "Who?" And somehow I don't want to be like that for the rest of my writing career. If that makes me shallow, I guess I am.

When I write for publication, I want A LOT of people to read it. Many may not like it, but I still want them to read it (when I saw that the copies at my local stores were all sold out, I was very happy and satisfied). And to say, "Raymond Wong wrote these." Not necessarily fame, but recognition. Yeah, I do sometimes think that's shallow, but I accept that.

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If that's being shallow, gimme some.

Birol said:

How do you balance doing what you enjoy with "wanting to do it all." Do you see wanting to do it all as a realistic, achievable goal? If your main purpose is writing things you enjoy, what is the purpose of pursuing the wide range of venues?

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Personally, I have to accept that I can't achieve everything I want to do all at once. Or that I probably can't achieve everything at all. But there's time. Time is my friend (unless I die soon, but then all of this is moot). Look at Robert Altman's career -- he did almost everything, from commercials to TV to mainstream to indie films, and he wrote, too. His career spanned decades and multiple media and genres. That may be something I aspire to.

And when I said I wanted to do it all, I don't mean literally everything under the sun. I have my limits, too. There are certain things I have no interest in doing, stories I have no interest in writing even if you pay me gobs of money. The good thing about me is that I enjoy many different things, from pulp to fine art, from greasy spoon food to gourmet cuisines. So to me, writing things I enjoy and "pursuing a wide range of venues" are not mutually exclusive -- in fact, they're complementary. I will always want to write stories with flawed, deep characters, but it doesn't mean I can't write commercial fiction if the story calls for it. My next book, for example, would probably be a thriller and I am very excited about it.

I guess my point is that I usually go with my guts, and since I have very broad interests, I think as long as I keep writing things that I enjoy and keep broadening my horizons, the only balancing act I need to do is time management. Aiming high also requires a lot of diligence, patience, and keeping my skills sharp and improving everything I do. It's work, of course. But the possibility also motivates me. Goals motivates me. It may take me 50 years to achieve these goals, and I hope I have 50 years to do it.

Birol said:

In the post I linked to, what I heard Beezle say was "when I'm published, people will respect [what I do as a writer]."

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I had to laugh...just this Saturday I was at my son's soccer jamboree, and my husband was telling some of the other parents about my book being published. They were utterly unimpressed with the achievement. One mom even waved a dismissive hand in the air and said, "I'm too busy keeping my house and family to write." As if I'd done it out of some sort of vanity! *grin*

Another time I was in a bookstore, talking to the customer service manager about how to arrange signings when the book was ready. She smiled sadly and said, "You do know we don't do signings for books that are self-published, yes?" And seemed genuinely surprised when I told her my publisher was Tor.

There reactions didn't upset me, though - keeps me humble.

Birol said:

So, what milestones have you been striving towards in order to achieve outside validation? What do you think of receiving outside validation? Are you still looking for it, have your received it, or have you given up on it? Is there something besides outside validation you're seeking?

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You know, I'm going to have to think about this one. I've never felt like I was seeking any sort of validation, but the more I ponder the question, the less sure I am.

Anonymisty said:

She smiled sadly and said, "You do know we don't do signings for books that are self-published, yes?" And seemed genuinely surprised when I told her my publisher was Tor.

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Although I'm not with a big publisher like Tor, I did have these experiences. I think store managers have seen so many self- or vanity-published authors coming to them that they can't help but be skeptical. Usually, all you have to do is ask them to look it up in their system and they would come back with an "Oh." It's actually quite amusing.

I'm with Scarlet, in the ballroom, with a lead pipe. I want to be published, by a legitimate, honest-to-God, they-pay-ME publisher. Then and only then will I say out loud that I'm a writer. And then and only then will my family figure it out.

I'm not out for fame because I'm too realistic for that. And yes, we're writing for ourselves, I get that - I've been doing that for years now. And I have readers from the days when I handed it out for free. Now it's time to take it to the legitimate level, get published by a real publisher, be seated there on the shelves of the local Barnes & Noble, and finally - maybe - if only for one day, force some respect out of a few people.

Stupid reason, maybe, but there ya go.

If that never happens, I'll at least die working toward that goal.

I don't think it's shallow for any writer to want their works to be read. We thought it up, slaved over putting it onto paper, slogged through the mill to get it published. Whatever the motivation for that, in the end, we want people to share our creation with, otherwise why would we bother in the first place? A storyteller without an audience is like a car at the bottom of the ocean - unused and unfulfilled.

Technically, being read and being published are two different things. I get read. I've never been published.

How do you get read without getting published (pay or non-pay) though? If you say, your friends and family read your stuff, then the question is what about strangers? I think many storytellers want to be read by "strangers."

I started a web page years ago and put my fiction on it, figuring I'd never get published and what-the-heck, just give it away and get the satisfaction. I get read by strangers, I get translated into other languages, I get fan mail, I get downloaded daily, but I get no pay. There's satisfaction by the truck load, but that's not publishing. It was great then, but I want the real thing now

I'll jump in the boat with Scarlet and Muse. I have been writing for fifteen years, and I've been read ever since I discovered online fiction forums. I have not, however, been published (as much as I'd love to count my 72k novel-length, zine-pubbed fanfic, I just can't ).

That's my goal, and it has been for years. Only in the last two or three years have I felt that my output is of publishable quality. I've received encouragement over the years, from college professors and even a produced screenwriter, and it's that outside validation that keeps my parents from seeing my writing as a hobby. They know I love writing, and they know it's why I put up with my soul-sucking retail job (<---motivation for BIC, if there ever was one).

I don't need a publication credit to be validated in my parents' eyes. To them, I am a writer. I want a credit (or a bound novel, whatever) to wave in the faces of, as Scarlet put it, high school bullies and old teachers. I want to show up on Christmas Eve, when my extended family is gathered, and say "Look what I did!" To prove I'm not wasting my time by writing, instead of getting a PhD in Psychology like my sister. It's the ultimate cute-drawing-on-the-refrigerator moment.

Will I be satisfied once I finally (being positive here) get that sought-after credit? Truthfully, I don't know. I'm terrible at looking too far into the future or second-guessing myself. I won't know until I arrive at that point. But the great thing about setting goals is that once one goal is reached, you are allowed to set another.

Only time will tell what that second goal is.

MidnightMuse said:

I started a web page years ago and put my fiction on it, figuring I'd never get published and what-the-heck, just give it away and get the satisfaction. I get read by strangers, I get translated into other languages, I get fan mail, I get downloaded daily, but I get no pay. There's satisfaction by the truck load, but that's not publishing. It was great then, but I want the real thing now

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I was one of those "strangers" who read MM's stories before I ever found AW, or knew her under this handle. Her stories deserved to be read, and her readers were lucky she chose to post them like she did.

So many people bemoan the internet as a dumping ground for anyone who wants to write a story, but sometimes it helps deserving writers find a little recognition. Even if some of us never receive that coveted publishing contract.

chaostitan said:

I was one of those "strangers" who read MM's stories before I ever found AW, or knew her under this handle. Her stories deserved to be read, and her readers were lucky she chose to post them like she did.

So many people bemoan the internet as a dumping ground for anyone who wants to write a story, but sometimes it helps deserving writers find a little recognition. Even if some of us never receive that coveted publishing contract.

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Absolutely. Sometimes, the internet can give you the push to realize "Hey, wait a minute. I'm good enough to be published and paid for it. People read me now, people will read me then."

MidnightMuse said:

I started a web page years ago and put my fiction on it, figuring I'd never get published and what-the-heck, just give it away and get the satisfaction. I get read by strangers, I get translated into other languages, I get fan mail, I get downloaded daily, but I get no pay. There's satisfaction by the truck load, but that's not publishing. It was great then, but I want the real thing now

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Putting your work online through a website is considered published -- even simply self-published. You're still allowing strangers, who stumble upon your site, to read your work.

My goal has always been to get published. If I knew, without a doubt, that I’d never be published again, I doubt I’d ever write another word.

Partly it’s validation. There’s no getting around the fact that if you tell people you write, the first question is what kind of stuff? The next is, are you published? (And sometimes that’s the first question.) And for genre writers, it’s particularly crucial. Those who write literary fiction or poetry are often compelled to write by their inner demons, outside validation or no. These are the artists. (Not always good artists, but artists nonetheless) We genre writers are more like craftsmen. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that)

As a genre writer, for me the whole point is telling a story, of entertaining and delighting people. If there’s no audience, there’s no point in telling the story. And that’s why being published is so important--it means simply that people will get to read your book. And a major publisher means more people will read your book. And the fact that someone will actually give you money to make up stories is the ultimate in validation.

But it’s certainly not all about the money.

One of the choices I made was to go with a publisher that will release my book as a mass market paperback. Why? Because that will give me the most readers. It’s all about the audience. I also play in a band. I much prefer to play a benefit street gig in front of lots and lots of people than a small private party gig for good money. Again, it’s the size of the audience that matters most. (Of course, if I had no day job, I might well feel different.)

As always, your mileage may vary.