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Higgins
03-26-2007, 10:10 PM
Oh, gun questions!!!

So on blowback semi-automatic pistols, there's a mechanism at the hammer-end of the pistol that apparently has a spring...It's called the slider. In a Makarov (or its predecessors back to the Original Belgian Browning of the 1890s, I assume) supposedly you can keep the weapon unloaded, put in the magazine and release the slider and the slider will move the first round into the chamber.

Does this sound right? What does the slider do during a firing cycle? Is it unwise to leave the slider in the non-released, spring-compressed position when it is unloaded?

Also, one website recommended boiling any pistols that use "corrosive" eastern european propellants (such as are used in 9.03mm X 18 rounds for Makarovs) after firing them. Does that sound plausible?

Histry Nerd
03-26-2007, 10:38 PM
Sokal -

I'm not all that familiar with the Makarov specifically, but that is the way the slide (not slider) of an automatic pistol works. You can lock it to the rear, insert a magazine, and release it and it will chamber the first round. When the pistol is fired, the gases push the slide to the rear, where it ejects the spent round and chambers the next. When the magazine is empty, the slide locks to the rear until released.

As to storing it that way? I wouldn't recommend it. That keeps the sping compressed, which will weaken it over time. That, and the gun takes up more space when the slide is back. And the guts are exposed.

I've never heard of boiling a gun to get rid of corrosive powder residue. I don't suppose it would hurt the gun as long as you dried it thoroughly afterward, but it wouldn't help, either. At best it would be no more effective than a good cleaning, and at worst it could get moisture into hard-to-reach parts and cause them to rust. Generally regarded as not a good thing.

Hope this helps.
HN

Jamesaritchie
03-27-2007, 12:50 AM
Only if the slide is locked to the rear, and no one would ever carry a handgun this way. You really can't, and there's never a need to do so, or a reason to do so. And if you left the handgun lying around to much with the slide locked back, the spring would eventually weaken.

But with most semi-autos, when you fire the last round, the slide locks back automatically. You insert a loaded magazine, release the slide, and it loads the top round from the magazine into the chamber.

The only time you EVER leave the slide locked is when you at something like a handgun competition. When your handgun is left on the bench or other starting position, you leave the slide locked back, and have no magazine in the weapon. This is so everyone can easily tell the handgun is unloaded and safe.

Boiling a handgun is not only silly, it's stupid. Even most eastern European propellants aren't all that corrosive, but no matter how corrosive something is, boiling a handgun does far more harm than good. You take the thing apart and clean it properly with a good solvent made for the job, oil it with a good gun oil, and put it back together. This is not only a thousand times better than boiling, it's also much faster and easier.

Puma
03-27-2007, 05:48 AM
I suspect what they meant was using boiling water for a pre-cleaning on parts that would have been in contact with the corrosive powder before cleaning the regular way (completely field stripped). We use hot soapy water to clean the bore on black powder guns (recommended method). As long as there's a good drying and oiling, there shouldn't be too much effect. Puma

Bmwhtly
03-27-2007, 05:04 PM
Actually boiling it my clean it, but it'll also expose the whole mechanism to temperatures outside the range it was designed for. It'd likely warp or damage some of the more delicate parts.
After boiling, the weapon may still work but I wouldn't call it safe.

alleycat
03-27-2007, 05:22 PM
I've heard of some of the black powder folks actually boiling parts of their guns. I've never heard of someone with a semi-auto doing it.

Higgins
03-27-2007, 07:14 PM
Sokal -

I'm not all that familiar with the Makarov specifically, but that is the way the slide (not slider) of an automatic pistol works. You can lock it to the rear, insert a magazine, and release it and it will chamber the first round. When the pistol is fired, the gases push the slide to the rear, where it ejects the spent round and chambers the next. When the magazine is empty, the slide locks to the rear until released.

As to storing it that way? I wouldn't recommend it. That keeps the sping compressed, which will weaken it over time. That, and the gun takes up more space when the slide is back. And the guts are exposed.

I've never heard of boiling a gun to get rid of corrosive powder residue. I don't suppose it would hurt the gun as long as you dried it thoroughly afterward, but it wouldn't help, either. At best it would be no more effective than a good cleaning, and at worst it could get moisture into hard-to-reach parts and cause them to rust. Generally regarded as not a good thing.

Hope this helps.
HN


Only if the slide is locked to the rear, and no one would ever carry a handgun this way. You really can't, and there's never a need to do so, or a reason to do so. And if you left the handgun lying around to much with the slide locked back, the spring would eventually weaken.

But with most semi-autos, when you fire the last round, the slide locks back automatically. You insert a loaded magazine, release the slide, and it loads the top round from the magazine into the chamber.

The only time you EVER leave the slide locked is when you at something like a handgun competition. When your handgun is left on the bench or other starting position, you leave the slide locked back, and have no magazine in the weapon. This is so everyone can easily tell the handgun is unloaded and safe.

Boiling a handgun is not only silly, it's stupid. Even most eastern European propellants aren't all that corrosive, but no matter how corrosive something is, boiling a handgun does far more harm than good. You take the thing apart and clean it properly with a good solvent made for the job, oil it with a good gun oil, and put it back together. This is not only a thousand times better than boiling, it's also much faster and easier.


I suspect what they meant was using boiling water for a pre-cleaning on parts that would have been in contact with the corrosive powder before cleaning the regular way (completely field stripped). We use hot soapy water to clean the bore on black powder guns (recommended method). As long as there's a good drying and oiling, there shouldn't be too much effect. Puma


Actually boiling it my clean it, but it'll also expose the whole mechanism to temperatures outside the range it was designed for. It'd likely warp or damage some of the more delicate parts.
After boiling, the weapon may still work but I wouldn't call it safe.


I've heard of some of the black powder folks actually boiling parts of their guns. I've never heard of someone with a semi-auto doing it.

Thanks all. So the dude with a home defense Makarov in the scene I'm
writing will get the pistol, pullback the SLIDE to lock, put in the magazine, release the slide and have a round ready to fire at least in theory.

Bmwhtly
03-27-2007, 07:17 PM
Thanks all. So the dude with a home defense Makarov in the scene I'm
writing will get the pistol, pullback the SLIDE to lock, put in the magazine, release the slide and have a round ready to fire at least in theory.
Just to clarify. You can lock back the slide. But if you just pull back the slide and release, it'll go forward again.
So it's quicker to insert the magazine, pulll the slide all the way back, release. Now the pistol is loaded and cocked.

alleycat
03-27-2007, 07:18 PM
Thanks all. So the dude with a home defense Makarov in the scene I'm
writing will get the pistol, pullback the SLIDE to lock, put in the magazine, release the slide and have a round ready to fire at least in theory.
Well, I don't know anything about that particular gun.

On modern autos, you can just slam the magazine in, pull back the slide (without it locking), let go, and a round will be chambered. Takes less than two seconds.

Bmwhtly
03-27-2007, 07:29 PM
Well, I don't know anything about that particular gun.

On modern autos, you can just slam the magazine in, pull back the slide (without it locking), let go, and a round will be chambered. Takes less than two seconds.Makarovs work that way too. They do have a safety catch, but lets not complicate things.

Tiger
03-28-2007, 06:33 AM
From what I know about Makarovs, they're a lot like Walther pps. If the guy wishes, he can hide the gun somewhere with a round in the chamber and the safety on. It may not be legal in many states, but this isn't to say that it's not done.

Re: boiling the weapon.... Water boils at what? 212F? I think that a lot of the new synthetic gun finishes are cured at 300F so I don't think it would damage the temper of the steel. Still, I'd think that a good solvent would be preferable.

Jamesaritchie
03-28-2007, 07:25 PM
From what I know about Makarovs, they're a lot like Walther pps. If the guy wishes, he can hide the gun somewhere with a round in the chamber and the safety on. It may not be legal in many states, but this isn't to say that it's not done.

Re: boiling the weapon.... Water boils at what? 212F? I think that a lot of the new synthetic gun finishes are cured at 300F so I don't think it would damage the temper of the steel. Still, I'd think that a good solvent would be preferable.

That danger is that not everything inside the weapon has a proper finish, and that water will condense inside, causing rust to form on springs and other metal parts. Even tiny amounts of rust can cause malfunction and/or breakage/jams.

Jamesaritchie
03-28-2007, 07:27 PM
Well, I don't know anything about that particular gun.

On modern autos, you can just slam the magazine in, pull back the slide (without it locking), let go, and a round will be chambered. Takes less than two seconds.

Well, I wouldn't slam the magazine in. One of the things I hate about TV and movies is watching people who should know better slam the magazine in. It is not a smart thing to do, can cause malfunctions, and can get you killed. Smooth and fast, yes, but no violence, please.

Jamesaritchie
03-28-2007, 07:29 PM
Thanks all. So the dude with a home defense Makarov in the scene I'm
writing will get the pistol, pullback the SLIDE to lock, put in the magazine, release the slide and have a round ready to fire at least in theory.

You don't have to lock the slide back if the magazine contains cartridges. You put the magazine in first, and then you pull back the slide and release it.

The Grift
03-28-2007, 08:11 PM
Although, as I am sure the experts here know, on many modern semi-autos if you slam the magazine home hard enough with the slide open, the slide will release and travel forward (chambering a round) without having to release the slide stop manually.

Not sure how good or bad that is for the weapon, but it's a practical reality.

alleycat
03-28-2007, 08:23 PM
Well, I wouldn't slam the magazine in. One of the things I hate about TV and movies is watching people who should know better slam the magazine in. It is not a smart thing to do, can cause malfunctions, and can get you killed. Smooth and fast, yes, but no violence, please.
Slam might not have been the best word to use, but on the ones I own you have to use a certain amount of force to have the clip lock into place. And if you're doing it quickly, it is akin to "slam" (although not with all one's might).

Tiger
03-28-2007, 11:42 PM
That danger is that not everything inside the weapon has a proper finish, and that water will condense inside, causing rust to form on springs and other metal parts. Even tiny amounts of rust can cause malfunction and/or breakage/jams.

Yes... I was responding to the post stating that the tempertures involved in boiling the thing would damage the componants. I don't think it would unless the thing was boiled with the plastic stocks still attached.

I wasn't disputing the fact that water contact in any form is something that gun owners universally try to avoid.

Still, I'm sure our quirky gun soup maker would boil the thing disassembled, and when finished, would reassemble the thing properly dried and lubed, no?

Tiger
03-28-2007, 11:54 PM
Slam might not have been the best word to use, but on the ones I own you have to use a certain amount of force to have the clip lock into place. And if you're doing it quickly, it is akin to "slam" (although not with all one's might).

Isn't there next to no resistence on the mag when it's put in with the slide back? Should need next to no pressure to seat it.

alleycat
03-29-2007, 12:05 AM
Isn't there next to no resistence on the mag when it's put in with the slide back? Should need next to no pressure to seat it.
Well, I thought we had moved on to having the clip put in, then the slide pulled back, then chambering the round . . . which is typical.

However, there is a catch for the clip; else it would just fall out (on my Beretta it's not much; on my S&W 39 it's a little more--it takes a bit of a shove to seat it). Each gun is going to be a bit different about this.

But, forget I mentioned it. Or that I said "slam".

If someone can arrange to go handle a gun or two in a gunshop, they can understand how guns work quicker than trying to understand someone explaining it to them. Just an idea.

Tiger
03-29-2007, 12:56 AM
Whoops, sorry.

You have a 39? Nice piece of history there.

Agreement on the gun shop. But hey: you gotta talk about something if you're not into cars... :)

alleycat
03-29-2007, 01:40 AM
You have a 39? Nice piece of history there.

Yeah, I've had it for a long time.

The first pistol I ever owned was a 22 Ruger target pistol. Nice little gun for the price . . . even though it loved to jam on the bullet ramp into the chamber. There's no telling how many rounds I ran through that thing. I used to go home and shoot two boxes of 22s every evening.

The "funkiest" gun I have is a little .25 Beretta (in addition to the 9mm). It's an auto, but the barrel also pops up and you can load it single shot. I'd hate to depend on it, but it's cute.

Lycius
03-29-2007, 01:44 AM
If someone can arrange to go handle a gun or two in a gunshop, they can understand how guns work quicker than trying to understand someone explaining it to them. Just an idea.

Best advice so far.

We could explain the ins and outs of a firearm all day long and you would learn less than handling one with a professional for 10 minutes.

The boiling thing is just plain ridiculous though. Only firearm you want to submerge in water would be a black powder weapon and that's just to clean/rinse.

If it is coated in mud etc.. you would rinse it off but afterward you would need to completely strip it and thoroughly clean and oil the weapon.

Tiger
03-29-2007, 06:51 AM
Yeah, I've had it for a long time.

The first pistol I ever owned was a 22 Ruger target pistol. Nice little gun for the price . . . even though it loved to jam on the bullet ramp into the chamber. There's no telling how many rounds I ran through that thing. I used to go home and shoot two boxes of 22s every evening.

The "funkiest" gun I have is a little .25 Beretta (in addition to the 9mm). It's an auto, but the barrel also pops up and you can load it single shot. I'd hate to depend on it, but it's cute.

I first used a third generation model 4006. Solid, heavy, mean recoil, and lousy accuracy. Favorite to shoot so far has been an H&K USP in .45. Wonderful accuracy, and the thing is laid out like a 1911.

Kentuk
04-01-2007, 10:14 AM
Boiling not a good idea most automatics have plastic or wood hand grips and there are usually a bunch of tiny delicate parts where you can't get at in the reciever.