How To Guides

wordmonkey · Mar 20, 2007

In light of this from Axler...

Axler said:
Received this proof today.

And lest I forget...
Ta. Da.

...it set me thinking. Are they any good?

Not for comic books, but I have a few, and I'll bet everyone picks them up at sometime or other. Do they really help? Do they work? I know that I have pulled some useful stuff from mine in the early days.

Thoughts?

(PS. I don't know if this is should JUST be confined to comic books since almost every other discipline has it's own versions, so feel free to Mod it over to where you think it fits - the above link made me put it here)

Tallymark · Mar 20, 2007

In all honesty I've never looked at graphic novel guide books...considering I'm making one (a graphic novel), maybe I should. XD It's just, since I'm involved in the art side of things too, I find myself relying more on online tutorials from artists I like, where I can get a visual, step-by-step breakdown of how a particular thing was done (like, a few months ago I was still, like an idiot, doing speech bubbles by making circles and coloring under them, till I found a tutorial on how to do it the right way. d'oh.). I'm definately the kind of person that really needs to see something done. And it helps to be able to directly ask the person a question about it.

As for the writing aspect, I think I'm relying a lot on general advice from novel-writing, and on comic-specific advice from that other thread here. XD Otherwise, I'm just fumbling and bumbling my way through, which hasn't gone too badly so far. Er, with me being my own only critic at this point, that is. ^_^;

Stacia Kane · Mar 20, 2007

I have the Alan Moore book, of course. I saw another one in Borders in Bristol last week but couldn't afford it.

I'll get Mark's book. I like how-to books anyway, and why not? I have quite a few writing books, and I usually find at least a few useful things in there. (Which isn't to say that there would only be a few useful things!)

Axler · Mar 21, 2007

Thanks, Dec...I'll say this about it--I went through most of the "how to" books that are available about writing comics and graphic novels, made notes in areas where I thought they were lacking, and hopefully supplied their deficiencies in this one.

The Everything Guide to Writing Graphic Novelstitle is a little misleading because it's far more than that.

The book features a lot of artwork, from Adam Hughes to Darryl Banks to Don Heck and many others, showing the step-by-step process from layouts to fully-colored and lettered pages.

I'm collaborating with my wife Melissa who has worked as a professional graphic designer for many years.

I'm a professional novelist, again for many years.

Both of us have extensive hands-on experience in comics production, from concept to the final product as it comes off the press.

This book provides a pretty detailed overview of the whole process, from the creative to the technical.

wordmonkey · Mar 21, 2007

OK, my take...

In general terms, like I said, I've got a few "how-to"s but mostly for screenwriting. They were good for giving me a quick heads up. But ultimately I think they're a bit of a con.

That's not to say I think the people who write them and put them out there are trying to con you (well, there are a few who seem to make an industry out of it and they seem a little dubious to me).

I can go in a book store and find lots and lots of books that are the how-to write a script; novel; comic; or how-to be creative; get your first book sold; yadda, yadda, yakkerty-schmackerty. But surely, if they really worked, wouldn't the books store also be filled with great books anybody and everybody had written? Wouldn't there be an abundance of awesome movies by new writers? Wouldn't the comic industry be bursting with new talent?

At best, I think they give you an idea of how to read your chosen field more analytically, but they don't really do more them bump you forward from a dead-stop to a slow drift.

To my mind, you have to go and read the stuff in your genre and read it looking for why it works or doesn't. Then you simply have to sit down and just do it. Then do it again, and again, and again, and again.... until you get it right.

The only book I've read that I thought was actually pretty good, is the Stephen King one (which is strange, since I'm not a big fan) and he basically says there's no one way and you just gotta do it (but then his book isn't really a how-to, but rather a long essay on his profession).

There's really no magic formular, and that's what these books suggest they have. Hard work is the key.

There is of course, one exception. "How to writer anything and everything really gooder, so you sell your novel / movie / comic / article / essay / tech-writing / back-of-the-cereal-box / ikea-construction-instructions and get really rich (and I mean silly rich - where you can buy that old high school phys-ed teacher who made you climb the rope in gym class even though you had a note from your Mom asking you to be excused on account of your genetic predisposition towards spindly kitten-limbs) and make HIM climb the rope - over a tank of man-eating gophers." by me, due for release as soon as we can find a format with a cover big enough for the title. It'll also have lots of big pictures for people who don't like to read, so they too can write the next great American novel / movie / comic / article / essay / tech-writing/back-of-the-cereal-box / ikea-construction-instructions.

That one is a guaranteed winner! You should all pre-order it now!

Axler · Mar 21, 2007

You either have the grounding in the basics of a field or you don't...every once in a rare while, a how-to book can be a resource to developing such things.

For me, it was Writing Popular Fiction, by Dean Koontz, way back in the day when I didn't even know how to format a manuscript page.

By your logic, anybody who picks up a "how to" book in any field will become an instant expert, so therefore we should be sloppin' over with an abundance of plumbers, chefs, doctors, and top-notch auto mechanics.

You're making quite the generalization with this statement: "There's really no magic formular, and that's what these books suggest they have. Hard work is the key."

I don't really know about the magic formula the how-to-books suggest (what are the titles of those books again?), but pep-rally type platitudes of "Just Do It!" and "Hard work is the key" certainly isn't the magic formula to success either.

Otherwise, all the aspiring creators who abide by the "hard work is the key" philosophy should be successes as well, right?

Hard work combined with "smart work" would be more accurate and far more helpful.

Aspring creators can put an awful lot of hard work into a project that has no chance of ever seeing publication because they don't know the details of the process.

Ideally, the best "how to" books will provide a blueprint for working smart as well as hard.

wordmonkey · Mar 21, 2007

Axler said:
You either have the grounding in the basics of a field or you don't...every once in a rare while, a how-to book can be a resource to developing such things.

Which I believe is what I said.

Axler said:
For me, it was Writing Popular Fiction, by Dean Koontz, way back in the day when I didn't even know how to format a manuscript page.

Shoulda come here! There's lots of stuff like that in AW! But again, seriously, formating is the basics, which again, I said I could see the value of.

Axler said:
By your logic, anybody who picks up a "how to" book in any field will become an instant expert, so therefore we should be sloppin' over with an abundance of plumbers, chefs, doctors, and top-notch auto mechanics.

That is obviously ridiculous. There is a step-by-step correct way to unclog your u-bend pipe under the sink; there are books aplenty filled with recipes which are again, step-by-step; I think, even without a medical degree, I'm on safe ground thinking there is a right and a wrong way to remove an apendix (through the nose = bad); and anyone who tells you they can change your spark-plugs in a more creative manner than the factory spec instructions is gouging you. Where is the step-by-step instruction in how to write? The basics are covered in English class K-HI, and if that's all you need, why do we even need the how-to books?

Axler said:
You're making quite the generalization with this statement: "There's really no magic formular, and that's what these books suggest they have. Hard work is the key."

You mean there IS a magic formular? If you know that and sell it, you'll be a rich man (or on the hit-list of established best-selling authors - maybe both).

Axler said:
I don't really know about the magic formula the how-to-books suggest (what are the titles of those books again?), but pep-rally type platitudes of "Just Do It!" and "Hard work is the key" certainly isn't the magic formula to success either.

Oh wait, you DON'T know the magic formular. My point was, that people buy these books and they think that all the need do is follow the steps and ta-da! Best-seller! That hard work ISN'T the key. Cleary you seem to agree with that. It's easy! But I'd like you to point out the person who hit pay-dirt WITHOUT hard work.

Axler said:
Otherwise, all the aspiring creators who abide by the "hard work is the key" philosophy should be successes as well, right?

Nope. No good if you don't have talent and creativity. And you can't teach those.

Axler said:
Hard work combined with "smart work" would be more accurate and far more helpful.

No arguent here. But even they are no good without creativity.

Axler said:
Aspring creators can put an awful lot of hard work into a project that has no chance of ever seeing publication because they don't know the details of the process.

Again, never said different.

Axler said:
Ideally, the best "how to" books will provide a blueprint for working smart as well as hard.

I really don't see the issue here. You seem to agree with the basics of what I said, but also wanted to argue the point. I don't get it?

Axler · Mar 21, 2007

I guess it gets down to what you think constitutes "magic formular" books, an umbrella by which you seemed to lump all "how-to" books beneath, regardless of the subject matter.

That's why I observed you were making a generalization, which you seem to think was actually a specification...which it wasn't.

I'm not familiar with those "magic formular" books you cite, that's why I asked you to provide the titles.

I never stated that it was either/or, hard work or smart work. My exact quote was: "Hard work combined with "smart work" would be more accurate and far more helpful."

(And yeah, unfortunately, I have known some people who've made it in comics without much in the way of hard work)

I'm not arguing any point whatsoever. I've made some observations and posted a couple of opinions, which I presume are allowed.

If you don't think any kind of "how to" book is of use to you at this point in your career as creator, that's great.

However, if there are aspiring creators who feel they could actually pick up some beneficial bits of advice from a "how to" book that they wouldn't normally find on a message board, then that should be considered great as well.

We good then?

wordmonkey · Mar 21, 2007

Axler said:
However, if there are aspiring creators who feel they could actually pick up some beneficial bits of advice from a "how to" book that they wouldn't normally find on a message board, then that should be considered great as well.

We good then?

I don't understand the attitude. After yesterday's friction, I was trying to do a nice thing and give your book a little bump by building a thread around it as a starting point.

I then gave my take on how-to books in general and you wanna pick a fight. I wasn't taking potshots at you or your work, and even said that in a certain capacity How-To books were good. You jump all over me for disagreeing with your opinion while jumping all over me for mine.

Yeah, we're good. I'm done with you. Life's too short.

Axler · Mar 21, 2007

Dude.

Jump all over you?

Wha--?!?

I understood that we were having a discussion about the relative worth of "How To" books. We weren't?

You posted some opinions, I posted some. You asked some questions, I asked some questions.

Your over-reaction tends to solidify my earlier observation about the general tenor of both frustration and resentment that I've detected in these threads.

If you thought I was jumping all over you for your opinions, I apologize. I assure you I was not.

PeeDee · Mar 21, 2007

Anyway....

Let's all just go buy Peter David's book on how to write comics and call ourselves shiny.

And Axler, seriously, he WAS being nice. I thought this thread was pretty decent of him to create, and you are indeed 'jumping.' I can't decide if you're spoiling for a fight, or if you just haven't found a rhythm for how to live and work in a forum community, but I hope you find your groove or your fight soon.

Axler · Mar 21, 2007

Maybe I haven't just figgered out the passive/aggressive dynamic at work here.

I doubt I'll worry too much about it...as Word sez: Life's too short.

E.G. Gammon · Mar 22, 2007

Let me just take this moment of what seems to be somewhat of a truce between those of you who seem to be butting heads a bit lately, to remind you (and everyone) that this is a friendly community. We're all here for the same reasons - to spark conversation, look for advice AND help each other as best we can, keeping in mind of course, AW's #1 rule: to respect your fellow writer.

So, please remember to make every effort you can not to set someone off or send a conversation down a rough road (even if that person might have said something that could spark an argument). We mods like to stay on neutral ground, and like it best when our members join us there instead of drawing lines in the sand. We're a family here and like every family, members often butt heads with one other, but AW works at its best when we all strive to get along with one another, even if that means we sacrifice the opportunity to make a point.

So, let me say this again: respect your fellow writer. Do that, and you're also respecting Absolute Write and helping to keep it the incredible community that it is.

Thank you.

-E.G. Gammon (Comic Books and Graphic Novels Forum Admin)

OverTheHills&FarAway · Mar 22, 2007

How-to guides have helped me.

So has an entire life of reading.

And an entire life of living.

And a big chunk of my life spent writing.

I think that how-to books can give you a leg up on how things generally work, make it easier, but there are no guarantees. My brother can read a guide on how to make chainmail and a month later have an entire hauberk, whereas I look at the guide and get a headache. Even if I tried very hard, I doubt I'd have anything resembling chainmail within a month. Or a year.

That being said, I think I'll be picking up a comic how-too very soon. . . .

PeeDee · Mar 22, 2007

I think a How-To Book, comics or otherwise, will point you in a certain direction and start you walking that way. And then you have to decide if you're comfortable with where you're going and make your own decision.

They can be fun to read, though, if well written. I prefer the variety like STephen King's On Writing where it's not hugely an instruction manual. I don't particularly want just a How To Write A NOvel IN Ten Days sort of book.

wordmonkey · Mar 22, 2007

OverTheHills&FarAway said:
That being said, I think I'll be picking up a comic how-too very soon. . . .

I cut out the other stuff you said you did, but I honestly think that if you have done all that reading and living and writing, you could really pick up almost ANY comic book and sit down and analyse it.

- Look at the page layout.
- Why use a splash pages?
- How is that different from multi-panel pages?
- Panel arrangement.
- Do images break the panel borders and to what effect?
- What camera angles are used?
- Why?
- What's the art in the panel telling?
- What's the art in the panel NOT telling you?
- What's the art in the panel suggesting to you?
- What's happening in the spaces BETWEEN panels?
- What's the dialog like?
- Do character tell you everything?
- How do they tell you?
- How do they say what they say?
- Is the dialog believeable?
- How are different accents shown?
- How are the dynamics and speech cadances portrayed?
- What about color?
- What does the color tell you?
- What clues does the color give you to the tone of a scene?
- What color is the space around the panels.
- What does that do to the tone of the scene?
- How is the story paced?
- How is action portrayed?
- How is suspense handled?
- How is a talking-heads scene handled?
- Is the story self-contained or part of an arc?
- What's the difference?
- What's the plot structure?
- Increasing problems to be overcome
- Or a straight ABABAB up and down dynamic?
- What are the hooks?
- For the story?
- For the series?

I could go on, but you get the idea.

All you're doing is reading analytically in the same way you would prose. The only difference is that someone will be interpretting what you write and creating a visual element as well.

From there, get the Dark Horse script guide and you're good to go.

That said, I think that a lot of people like having the How-To books as something like a security-blanket. And you need to hold it for a while, until you're read to toddle off to kindergarten and the big wide world to go crazy. That isn't meant as a put-down BTW, just seemed a fitting analogy.

--

Added: And I still don't know that I really explained myself. Prolly just lit the touch-paper again.

Axler · Mar 22, 2007

OverTheHills&FarAway said:
I think that how-to books can give you a leg up on how things generally work, make it easier, but there are no guarantees.

Exactly.

I've read a lot of how-to-books about writing but the only one that ever provided practical advice that actually paid off for me was Dean Koontz's Writing Popular Fiction/.

As with most everything in life, it's a crap shoot.

PeeDee · Mar 22, 2007

Axler said:
Exactly.

I've read a lot of how-to-books about writing but the only one that ever provided practical advice that actually paid off for me was Dean Koontz's Writing Popular Fiction/.

As with most everything in life, it's a crap shoot.

S'more fun that way.

Dean Koontz had a great book. So did Stephen King and Ray Bradbury, although I look at Bradbury's as being less about writing fiction, and more about the mentality and lifestyle of a hardworking writer.

For comic how-to guides, I enjoyed Peter David's book. It was perhaps less deep than it could have been, but it was fun to read, and it didn't bog you down.

Alan Moore's was just about as intimidating as Alan Moore's comics. Sometimes, I get the feeling that he's speaking slowly and simply for us, and he's still two planes above me...

OverTheHills&FarAway · Mar 22, 2007

And they can help put things you already know, deep within your core, into words and explain them in concrete ways. That's what Robert McKee's book Story, about writing screenplays, did for me. After reading and watching thousands of stories in my life, I knew the rhythm of them in my bones, but reading this book helped me organize my thoughts and better manipulate the different elements of plot and character.

If I hadn't found it at Goodwill for two dollars, I'd still be writing, and it would probably still be good, but reading the book made me, my conscious self, understand what my subconscious, word-writing self already knew.

wordmonkey · Mar 22, 2007

OverTheHills&FarAway said:
And they can help put things you already know, deep within your core, into words and explain them in concrete ways. That's what Robert McKee's book Story, about writing screenplays, did for me. After reading and watching thousands of stories in my life, I knew the rhythm of them in my bones, but reading this book helped me organize my thoughts and better manipulate the different elements of plot and character.

See he's actually the main guy I have an issue with.

And you know he's gonna be quaking in his boots knowing that. Probably keeps him up at nights with worry.

It's why I rate Stephen King's "On Writing" way above. McKee makes a cottage industry out of this, but what has he done in the field? King has his looooooooooooong list of real world credits. And despite what might be thought, were I looking for a how-to on comics, a book by someone who has done it (like Axlers) would be something I'd consider.

BUT...

If they work for you (the general collective you) go wild. Whatever it takes to get you were you want to be. There are many roads and it would get real slow if everyone took the same one.

OverTheHills&FarAway · Mar 22, 2007

I liked them both.

And while I paid full price for On Writing, Story, in hardback, was only two dollars.

Like that makes a difference.

(My wallet: You know it does! Admit it!)

I'll pretty much read anything, cheap or not. I'll either admire it or laugh at it.

How To Guides

wordmonkey

ook

Tallymark

Stacia Kane

Girl Detective

Axler

wordmonkey

ook

Axler

wordmonkey

ook

Axler

wordmonkey

ook

Axler

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

Axler

E.G. Gammon

OverTheHills&FarAway

McNifico

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

wordmonkey

ook

Axler

PeeDee

Where's my tea, please...?

OverTheHills&FarAway

McNifico

wordmonkey

ook

OverTheHills&FarAway

McNifico