A Problem with Christian Plots

Edward G

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
30
Location
New Orleans
This post is difficult, because the book I'm referring to, I actually like a great deal. It's very well written by an author who obviously knows the craft of fiction well. It's a page-turner without a doubt, and I so rarely find a book that keeps me interested like this one does. It's a great work, and if you like Christian fiction, it's a must read. The book is "Waking Lazarus by T.L. Hines, available through Bethany Books, most easily obtained, I suppose at a Christian bookstore, or where I got my copy--Amazon.com.

But I can't finish it.

It's not the writer or the story that has forced me to close it, it's the fact that it's Christian, and there is an inherent problem with that. I didn't realize the problem myself, because I hadn't read a Christian book before.

Simply put: Christ and God don't fit in fiction. They dissolve the plot, sure as gasoline dissolves a styrofoam cup. You can have a Christian theme, like in the movie: The Mission with Robert Deniro, but you can't have people in the book talking about their personal relationships with God or Jesus, because then God and Jesus get introduced as unseen characters, and if they are characters in the book, then they become an automatic deus ex machina, whether you use them for that or not.

Fiction plots are not like real life. Everything in a fiction plot has to be motivated by inserted causes and effects. If a character in the book is praying, and God is treated as a real thing, then God has been planted as a potential cause, and God is omnipotent. So anything that happens in the story forces the reader to ask, "What about God? Why doesn't God just change it? God's in the story, and God is an omnipotent causal force that can do things or prevent things in the plot.

So, If there's a murder, God did it--even more than the murderer. If an angel suddenly appears, completely unmotivated to solve a problem at the end of the story, that's OK. In fact, if one doesn't, that's a problem, given that God is in the story.

You can have Greek Gods in a story, because they're not omnipotent. You can have Satan in a story, because he's not omnipotent. You can't have God and Jesus Christ in a story unless you make them less than omnipotent, and thats irreverent and for most people unbelievable. The only possible story for them is a Gospel.

Bottom line: T.L. Hines is a great writer. Waking Lazarus is a fascinating story, but the book suffers from the impossibility of the Christian genre. I hope he breaks out and goes mainstream sometime with Christian themes hidden in secular plots.

What do you all think?
 

aadams73

A Work in Progress
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
9,901
Reaction score
6,428
Location
Oregon
Now I know you're just trolling.
 

Sage

Supreme Guessinator
Staff member
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
64,716
Reaction score
22,721
Age
43
Location
Cheering you all on!
I suspect this post will be moved to TIO pretty quickly
 

Bravo

Socialitest
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
5,336
Reaction score
1,446
i think he has an interesting argument.

doesnt seem like "trolling" to me.

:l
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2005
Messages
47,985
Reaction score
13,245
Funny, I agree with you even though I'm a Christian myself! (Christian fiction isn't a genre that's at all well known in the UK by the way). Deus ex machina? God from machine? Well God IS that deus ex machina plot device we all try to avoid. I'd be wondering, "Why doesn't God fix this?" or "Why did God let that happen if he's so involved in the story?"

These questions I could answer in real life, from a religious point of view, but they would take ages...

I suppose you could have a book about a Christian and how they try to serve God and have God as a 'minor', "I'm just standing back to see how you deal with this, mortal," character, but...

Yeah. Interesting post.
 

TsukiRyoko

Forced into cell phone life
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
2,692
Reaction score
942
Location
West Vir-freaking-ginia
Website
tsuki-explodes.blogspot.com
I believe that God has a place in fiction just like anything else. Regardless of whether ot not a being or object plays a part in real life, it has a place in fiction. However, just like with all things, it has to be done correctly.
 
Last edited:

Lyxdeslic

Laughing every time I choke.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 9, 2007
Messages
1,340
Reaction score
516
Location
Buying lies and stealing jokes.
This post is difficult, because the book I'm referring to, I actually like a great deal. It's very well written by an author who obviously knows the craft of fiction well. It's a page-turner without a doubt, and I so rarely find a book that keeps me interested like this one does. It's a great work, and if you like Christian fiction, it's a must read. The book is "Waking Lazarus by T.L. Hines, available through Bethany Books, most easily obtained, I suppose at a Christian bookstore, or where I got my copy--Amazon.com.

But I can't finish it.

It's not the writer or the story that has forced me to close it, it's the fact that it's Christian, and there is an inherent problem with that. I didn't realize the problem myself, because I hadn't read a Christian book before.

Simply put: Christ and God don't fit in fiction. They dissolve the plot, sure as gasoline dissolves a styrofoam cup. You can have a Christian theme, like in the movie: The Mission with Robert Deniro, but you can't have people in the book talking about their personal relationships with God or Jesus, because then God and Jesus get introduced as unseen characters, and if they are characters in the book, then they become an automatic deus ex machina, whether you use them for that or not.

Fiction plots are not like real life. Everything in a fiction plot has to be motivated by inserted causes and effects. If a character in the book is praying, and God is treated as a real thing, then God has been planted as a potential cause, and God is omnipotent. So anything that happens in the story forces the reader to ask, "What about God? Why doesn't God just change it? God's in the story, and God is an omnipotent causal force that can do things or prevent things in the plot.

So, If there's a murder, God did it--even more than the murderer. If an angel suddenly appears, completely unmotivated to solve a problem at the end of the story, that's OK. In fact, if one doesn't, that's a problem, given that God is in the story.

You can have Greek Gods in a story, because they're not omnipotent. You can have Satan in a story, because he's not omnipotent. You can't have God and Jesus Christ in a story unless you make them less than omnipotent, and thats irreverent and for most people unbelievable. The only possible story for them is a Gospel.

Bottom line: T.L. Hines is a great writer. Waking Lazarus is a fascinating story, but the book suffers from the impossibility of the Christian genre. I hope he breaks out and goes mainstream sometime with Christian themes hidden in secular plots.

What do you all think?

Blah, blah, blah...God. Blah, blah, blah, Jesus. Blah, blah, blah, <insert any one of the myriad of "contraversial" -- baiting terms -- he used...here>.

Please, for the love of decency, all of you, don't allow yourselves to be drawn in. I repeat, DON'T RESPOND! You're only feeding this poor guy's ego. Divert your eyes, take your dog for a walk, do the dishes, but please, I beg of you, don't respond (unless, of course, you want to start posting pictures of kittens). :)
 

Bravo

Socialitest
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2006
Messages
5,336
Reaction score
1,446
why do you hate discussions lyx?
 

Deleted member 42

Simply put: Christ and God don't fit in fiction. They dissolve the plot, sure as gasoline dissolves a styrofoam cup. You can have a Christian theme, like in the movie: The Mission with Robert Deniro, but you can't have people in the book talking about their personal relationships with God or Jesus, because then God and Jesus get introduced as unseen characters, and if they are characters in the book, then they become an automatic deus ex machina, whether you use them for that or not.

I think you're . . . meh.

You need to read a hell of a lot more than you've read before you pontificate on literature to the extent you've done here.

You might start with a better book, to begin with the more than somewhat controversial The Last Temptation of Christ by Nikos Kazantzakis. Gore Vidal's Live from Golgotha is worth a look. Or Chistopher Moore's very very funny (and probably offensive to many Christians) Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal. Or The Nazarene by Shlomo Asch, or even D. H. Lawrence's odd The Man Who Died, or Ben Hur, by Lew Wallace.

That's off the top of my head, without looking at bookshelves -- there's one by Mary Roberts Rinehart, too, and I think an ancient pulp novel by Frank Yerby.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Lyxdeslic

Laughing every time I choke.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 9, 2007
Messages
1,340
Reaction score
516
Location
Buying lies and stealing jokes.
Damnit, I can't take my own advice.

God shouldn't be allowed in fiction, you say? Hmmn! I was under the impression that he already was -- the Bible. Best selling fiction book of all time, no?
 
Last edited:

Siddow

I'm super! Thanks for asking
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
2,719
Reaction score
2,056
Location
GA
Damnit, I can't take my own advice.

God shouldn't be allowed in fiction, you say? Hmmn! I was under the impression that he already was -- the bible. Best selling fiction book of all time, no?

I vote you sir, as Master Baiter. :D
 

Shady Lane

my name is hannah
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
44,931
Reaction score
9,546
Location
Heretogether
I'm not religious per se, and I'm certainly not Christian, but I'm hard pressed to find anything I've written that doesn't feature some kind of Jesus figure and some sort of personal struggle with God.

Aside from that...

2.jpg
 
Last edited:

Edward G

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
30
Location
New Orleans
Now I know you're just trolling.

Before I address the other posts, let me say that I am in no way trying to troll. I was actually dismayed to come back 10 minutes later and find 15 replies. I pose this as a serious question, becasue it was a brand new revelation (no pun intended) for me while I was reading Hine's book. It hit me like a ton of bricks, and I thought it would be a good subject for this group.
 

Edward G

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
30
Location
New Orleans
I suppose you could have a book about a Christian and how they try to serve God and have God as a 'minor', "I'm just standing back to see how you deal with this, mortal," character, but...

Yeah. Interesting post.

Agreed. Like the movie Amadeus. The main character is constantly praying to God and Christ and talking about them, but they never actually appear in the story. The main character's distance from God is what is really being talked about.
 

Edward G

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
30
Location
New Orleans
Blah, blah, blah...God. Blah, blah, blah, Jesus. Blah, blah, blah, <insert any one of the myriad of "contraversial" -- baiting terms -- he used...here>.

Please, for the love of decency, all of you, don't allow yourselves to be drawn in. I repeat, DON'T RESPOND! You're only feeding this poor guy's ego. Divert your eyes, take your dog for a walk, do the dishes, but please, I beg of you, don't respond (unless, of course, you want to start posting pictures of kittens). :)

Well there's an intelligent addition to the discussion.
 

Judg

DISENCHANTED coming soon
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
4,527
Reaction score
1,182
Location
Ottawa, Canada and Spring City, PA
Website
janetursel.com
Actually Gordon, anybody who has been a Christian for any length of time has had to grapple with the issue of unanswered prayer. All of our experience tells us that God refuses to be a divine vending machine of ready-made solutions. I really don't see how that sabotages any fiction. I haven't read very many explicitly Christian novels, but those often tackle the issue head on. Stop prejudging the book and finish it. I haven't read it, but I suspect it will supply the answer itself.

While you're at it, read the story of Joseph in Genesis, with the same question in mind.
 

Edward G

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
30
Location
New Orleans
I think you're . . . meh.

You need to read a hell of a lot more than you've read before you pontificate on literature to the extent you've done here.

You might start with a better book,

I disagree: T.L. Hines has written a good book. He's got a great idea, and his book is an interesting page-turner. My guess is that he's a bestseller in Christian circles. If it wasn't good, I wouldn't care as much as I do about the subject. I would have just written it off.


to begin with the more than somewhat controversial The Last Temptation of Christ by Nikos Kazantzakis. Gore Vidal's Live from Golgotha is worth a look. Or Chistopher Moore's very very funny (and probably offensive to many Christians) Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal. Or The Nazarene by Shlomo Asch, or even D. H. Lawrence's odd The Man Who Died, or Ben Hur, by Lew Wallace.

That's off the top of my head, without looking at bookshelves -- there's one by Mary Roberts Rinehart, too, and I think an ancient pulp novel by Frank Yerby.

I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.
 

Siddow

I'm super! Thanks for asking
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
2,719
Reaction score
2,056
Location
GA
Does anyone else just read the first couple of sentences of GJ's posts, and then go straight to the replies?

Is it just me?
 

Edward G

Sockpuppet
Banned
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
361
Reaction score
30
Location
New Orleans
I'm not religious per se, and I'm certainly not Christian, but I'm hard pressed to find anything I've written that doesn't feature some kind of Jesus figure and some sort of personal struggle with God.

Aside from that...

Ah, but Jesus figures are ok, because they're not the real thing: Randal P. MacMurphy in One Flew Over the Cookoos Nest, or Owen Meany from A Prayer for Owen Meany, for example.