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Is Said dead

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Joe270

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I took a major hit on the "First Chapthers" contest because I never used 'said'. I used replied, rebuked, offered, etc. IMHO, seems to me that said is a last resort, if you can't take the line further, embellish it better with another more descriptive word. I see said as I see be verbs, avoid it. What's the take on this?
 

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Nope. "Said" is invisible but not weak, and the perfect word for a dialog tag if you need one, pretty much always.
 

Joe270

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Every time I have ever typed out 'said' I have thought, oooh, I'm writing. It just feels false to me. Almost an affectation (anybody got spellcheck?).

I feel (dang, why doesn't this have spell-check?) abnormal using said.

Ok, I admit it, I can't recall how to spell awkward, all right? Dang it, where's my dictionary.
 

Vincent

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yelled
yelped
yowled



And nearly every time, 'said' trumps them all.
 

Deleted member 42

The thing about said is that it is used so very very often that it's transparent.
 

Joe270

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Ohmigod, Bee. I think I'll print your post for future use. Wow.

The transparent, over-used aspect strikes the main point here. Are you embarrased to actually stoop to it?

My favorite short is James J.'s "The Dead". He chose each word to have two meanings throughout. No said exists.

Still, can using all those suggestions Bee listed make it seem you avoid saying the overused, tired, cliche, busted, false 'said'. Kinda sucks, doesn't it?
 
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maestrowork

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I took a major hit on the "First Chapthers" contest because I never used 'said'. I used replied, rebuked, offered, etc. IMHO, seems to me that said is a last resort, if you can't take the line further, embellish it better with another more descriptive word. I see said as I see be verbs, avoid it. What's the take on this?

You have it backwards. Use "said" in most cases unless there's a good reason to use something else, such as "whisper."

So no, no, no, it's overused and transparent for a reason. So use it.

Dialogue tags should be transparent, and "said" is the most transparent. It helps leave the focus on the dialogue it self. Sometimes you don't even need the tags if it's clear who is speaking. Anything else just shifts the attention to the tag (he shouted, he bellowed, he offered) instead of the dialogue itself.

There's really no reason to embellish your tags just because you don't want to use "said." To do so means you're an amateur -- similar to those who think they must use the thesaurus to find big words, different words every time. And that's probably why you took a hit in the contest.

Another reason why you don't want to substitute every said with words like "offered, teased, retorted, roared": show vs. tell. If your dialogue is not good enough to show us that someone is "retorting," then you have failed to communicate even if you stick a "he retorted" at the end. Otherwise, "he retorted" is "telling" and redundant.
 
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Deleted member 42

Use said, really.

My hand to . . . using the various alternatives is a mark of an amateur. Really.

It's called saidisms, and well, it's so common it's a slush-filtering signal. Sometimes, rarely, you might want a particular alternative because it imparts important information, but that's very very rare.

Go with said.
 

Joe270

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Unbielivable, I am shocked here.

I suppose the transparent nature of said is the focus . . . or lack there of.

I started with novels, but have focused more on screen/teleplays lately. Each word is important. So said gets a pass here.

I have seen your both of your posts and respect your opinions. Still, I wonder if this is truly the best way to write dialogue. Not trying to argue, you guys both know better than me.
 

Deleted member 42

Tell you what, you go get five novels you like and open 'em up. Look at random passages of dialog and see for yourself.
 

maestrowork

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Unbielivable, I am shocked here.
I have seen your both of your posts and respect your opinions. Still, I wonder if this is truly the best way to write dialogue. Not trying to argue, you guys both know better than me.

Yes. It's not just an opinion; it's best practice according to many professional, seasoned writers, including Stephen King, who has talked about "saidism."

Whoever told you you should use other words instead of "said"? Were they published authors?

Why is it shocking? "Saidism" actually is a common problem among inexperienced writers. Your skepticism isn't really unqiue. I mean, if "said" is bad because it's transparent and "overused," then I suppose we should never use the following words either: I, you, they, he, she, it, is, are, was, were, call, ask.... and the list goes on. What's next? Use the thesaurus for every common word?

Like I said, there are times when other words might be useful instead of "said." "Whisper" is an example, if the character is indeed whispering something. Usually, the tag becomes important if there's no other way to convey an action (such as whisper) using only the dialogue. Again, the focus should be on the dialogue, not the tag.


Like Medievalist said, read a few current adult novels (children and YA have different takes on this) and see how the writers handle dialogue tags.
 
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maestrowork

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Here, I took the liberty of looking through some mainstream/lit books I have:

From Mystery of Pittsburgh by one of the best contemporary writers, Michael Chabon:

"I saw Lenny Stern this morning," he said. "He asked after you. You remember your Uncle Lenny."

"Sure," I said, and I thought for a second about Uncle Lenny.... (page 1)
...
I said, "I anticipate a coming season of dilated name and of women all in disarray." (page 2)
...
"That was him, Sandy," she said. (page 4)

Here's from The Lovely Bones:

"Mr. Harvey," I said. (page 6)
...
"Fine," I said. I was cold, but the natural authority of his age, and the added fact that he was a neighbor and had talked to my father about fertilizer, rooted me to the spot.

"I've built something back here," he said. "Would you like to see?"

"I'm sort of cold, Mr. Havey," I said, "and my mom likes me home before dark."

"It's after dark, Susie," he said. (page 7)


From The Rocket by Ray Bradbury:

"You're the best father in the world," she whispered.

"Why?"

"Now I see," she said. "I understand."

She lay back and closed her eyes, holding his head. "Is it a very lovely journey?" she asked.

"Yes," he said.

"Perhaps," she said, "perhaps, some night, you might take me on just a little trip, do you think?"

"Just a little one, perhaps," he said.
 
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Julie Worth

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Tell you what, you go get five novels you like and open 'em up. Look at random passages of dialog and see for yourself.

Looking at the first few pages of Tortilla Flat, I suddenly find that Steinbeck committed many sins. He’s all over the place with tags, and he’s not adverse to adverbs either.

he muttered savagely
he said naively
he said sadly
Pilon added rhythmically . . . added helpfully . . . added hopefully . . .
Danny demanded
Pilon went on.
Pilon answered him sternly

Of course, it worked, so you can’t argue with that.
 

Joe270

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I don't know where my said phobia stems from. Most likely it's a screenplay habit, but I don't know for certain.

I get it now, said is so common, so simple readers scan through it quickly, so the dialogue stays in focus better.
 

Deleted member 42

Looking at the first few pages of Tortilla Flat, I suddenly find that Steinbeck committed many sins. He’s all over the place with tags, and he’s not adverse to adverbs either.

Yeah, Steinbeck also is adverb happy in general; he just is. But most of those instances he's really providing extra information, important information, about the speaker's delivery/mood.
 

Anthony Ravenscroft

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Dialogue tags are what Arthur Plotnik called stage management (William Sloane & Lawrence Block expressed similar sentiments in their books) & I less-politely call raisin-crapping. When you tell your characters to make animal noises while they read their lines, it's forced & intrusive -- imagine how irritated a director would get if your script was loaded with such niggling. Anytime you use something with more curlicues than "said," you're calling attention to your writing (& your presumed cleverness), which disrupts the reader's suspension of disbelief. If you go bad, you'll end up writing accidental Tom Swifties that'll make people snicker at you.

At best, dialogue tags are melodrama -- Wikipedia has a good entry for this term, & I recommend you read it.

Can these things be used? Sure! ...when you're purposely trying to do an over-the-top scene, or maybe playing the purpleness for laughs. Or if you're already of a stature approximating Steinbeck.

I just got done slogging through a ghastly novella, "The Gift of Nothing" by Joan Holly, that is obsessed with tagging every snippet of dialogue, & telling the reader how to interpret the scene that's unfolding. I estimate that chopping this patronising current out would reduce the story by almost 10%.

Harlan Ellison says these things were common in the heyday of the pulp genre magazines, because you were getting paid by the word, so only someone with a real job could afford to write tersely & to the point.

My preference is to avoid tags except to clarify. If you've got a dialogu, do you really need many reminders? And even if there's more, do all your characters talk the same way? (If so, your stage-directions are taking up the slack of shaky writing, which is probably where you should focus.)
 

maestrowork

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I don't know where my said phobia stems from. Most likely it's a screenplay habit, but I don't know for certain.

Actually, in screenplay you don't tag dialogue. So where does that come from? Now, if you're talking about stage direction such as:

GUY
(yells dejectedly)
I can't believe you did that!!!


... my advise is that less is more. I personally dislike stage directions unless it's really important. Otherwise, let the context speak for itself and let the director/actor work it out.
 

Provrb1810meggy

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I sense your confusion, Joe270. I used to barely use "said," because teachers always drilled "Said is dead," into us, telling us to use more descriptive verbs. Then, I came to AW where said was anything but dead. I made up my mind, settling in the said is anything but dead camp, because I think it flows better in writing. Of course, you could sprinkle more descriptive verbs in dialog tags when appropriate.
 

Joe270

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Sorry, Maestro, I wasn't specific enough. I'm refering to the descriptive passages in screenplays. Peppering adverbs in descriptive passages turns off many professional readers, so I've read and been told. I suppose it's a cheating way to insert direction.

I've never sold a dang thing, so I'm no expert.
 

maestrowork

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Right. Always consider the right verbs and nouns. Especially in screenplays, adverbs and adjectives don't mean much, except to move things along. "He walks out angrily" doesn't mean anything visually, but "he kicks the trash can on his way out" does.

But "said" in novels are different. Again, it's a transparent word, and is very useful in bringing the dialogue to the front -- the tag's main purpose is to identify who is speaking. In screenplay, this is achieved by the character line, so no "said" is needed. Again, it's transparent. You don't want to draw attention to it except to know who is speaking. Let the dialogue shine on its own.
 
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Dialogue tags draw attention to themselves - pulling the reader out of the suspended disbelief state.

'Said' is the only one which doesn't do this.
 

Joe270

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scarletpeachesDialogue tags draw attention to themselves - pulling the reader out of the suspended disbelief state.

'Said' is the only one which doesn't do this.

Well, after Mideival's example, I doubt I'll ever forget this.
 
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