Non-Swastika non-discussion

Higgins · Mar 15, 2007

It's like General Dentz said when the Commonwealth shipped him and most of the Vichy French Garrison home from defeat in Syria (and Lebanon) in 1941:

"As for the British (for which we in the Critical Theory section can substitute their handful of brave epic-defenders), they are representatives of all those things we almost perished from: democratic-masonic politics and judeo-saxon finance."

Not perished, just shipped home in defeat. Almost perished. Like Quasi-Fascist Kittens.

Dawno · Mar 15, 2007

Higgins · Mar 15, 2007

Thanks for Nothing

Sokal said:
"As for the British (for which we in the Critical Theory section can substitute their handful of brave epic-defenders), they are representatives of all those things we almost perished from: democratic-masonic politics and judeo-saxon finance."

Thanks for summing up everything I hate about Vichy and Time magazine.

It's amazing how little of that Time account is true and how much of it is contradictory:
"Non-white" troops are discounted but "Blood-thirsty Circassians" are well, not to be belittled. And didn't General Collet change back to Vichy eventually? Weren't the Germans too busy recovering from their air loses in Iraq and getting ready to invade Russia to care about Syria and Lebanon? So the "spurious" non-Germans were doubly spurious.

PS: for some reason I deleted the account in Time magazine from early June 1941 which was in the thread header.

ColoradoGuy · Mar 15, 2007

Sokal said:
But where are we really? In the mythical space where symbols are never tainted by being appropriated by fascists? Gosh, if the Swastika is okay, why not mass gymnastics? Or a few squirts of eugenics? Or visiting the honored fascist dead? Or raving about the Judeo-Masonic conspiracy?

Well, I think the point is we are trying to avoid conflating the swastika with The Swastika. The former has been and will continue to be the symbol of several things. The latter is something else. Intelligent persons should be able to tell the difference between the two. Eugenics is eugenics, not a symbol of anything -- just a bad act in itself. Honoring the fascist dead would depend on whethering the honoring was as persons or as fascists. Ravings about conspiracies use words, which is a different matter than showing a wordless, context-free symbol. I have no idea about the gymnastics other than to say I hated Phys Ed class.

And if this symbol is truly tainted, then perhaps it is time for intelligent persons to do their part in untainting it.

Ol' Fashioned Girl · Mar 15, 2007

Higgins · Mar 15, 2007

Flight B

ColoradoGuy said:
And if this symbol is truly tainted, then perhaps it is time for intelligent persons to do their part in untainting it.

Alas...I like the photo and the links, but I will try to untaint my views of Swastikas.

Some untainting with Fewer kittens, more Killers of Fascists:

And here is Flight B (who were flying Gladiator biplanes in 1940 when they shot down 100 Fascist Aircraft):

Squadron Leader Donald Swift 'Don' Gregory DFM, RAF nos. 565558 (NCO); 47849 (Officer)

'B' Flight of 80 Squadron at Yanina, Greece, who together shot down more than 100 enemy aircraft.
(Left to right): Sergeant Casbolt, Sergeant Barker, Sergeant Gregory, Pilot Officer Vale, Flight Lieutenant Pattle, Pilot Officer Cullen.

Deleted member 42 · Mar 15, 2007

Sokal said:
I myself have no objection to swastikas...they occur in some of the most mysterious Navaho sandpaintings....but let's do some collective growing up and admit that -- like it or not -- some things have some nasty associations for many people.

Let's also look at the discussion re: swastikas in the original context, because the discussion on AW is very very much seated in that context.

In other words, it was not an abstract discussion, by any means.

Higgins · Mar 15, 2007

Thanks for informing me

Medievalist said:
Let's also look at the discussion re: swastikas in the original context, because the discussion on AW is very very much seated in that context.

In other words, it was not an abstract discussion, by any means.

Ah, you are so right. Count me as ignorant. I withdraw all misgivings about swastikas. And I will delete some of my posts here.

Dawno · Mar 15, 2007

And as for the kittens - surely there are times when comic relief is appropriate? It's a venerable concept going back to the earliest roots of writing. The court jester is very often the one who keeps things from escalating to bloodshed, no?

Don't diss the kitties.

Higgins · Mar 16, 2007

Un-dissing the Kitties

Dawno said:
And as for the kittens - surely there are times when comic relief is appropriate? It's a venerable concept going back to the earliest roots of writing. The court jester is very often the one who keeps things from escalating to bloodshed, no?

Don't diss the kitties.

Alas...my aim was comedy as well. I'm just not as funny as I think I am.

Higgins · Mar 16, 2007

Sokal said:
Alas...my aim was comedy as well. I'm just not as funny as I think I am.

I think Richard Nigel "Ape" Cullen seems kind of like comic relief even if he did kill a lot of fascists. No kitten he.

Flight Lieutenant Richard Nigel 'Ape' Cullen DFC, RAF no. 39967

ColoradoGuy · Mar 16, 2007

Sokal said:
I'm just not as funny as I think I am.

Few of us are. Or, if we are, it's not for the reasons we think.

Deleted member 42 · Mar 16, 2007

In order to be funny, you have to have a very keen sense of your audience, and what will work for them. It's a writerly thing really, and there's a reason that style is one of the five parts of rhetoric; writers adjust their style to their topic, their occasion, and, most of all, to our audience.

Higgins · Mar 16, 2007

Ah, I see

Medievalist said:
In order to be funny, you have to have a very keen sense of your audience, and what will work for them. It's a writerly thing really, and there's a reason that style is one of the five parts of rhetoric; writers adjust their style to their topic, their occasion, and, most of all, to our audience.

So the prolonged tail-ends of threads such as we now are seeing in the Big Swastika thread...where everbody who has a keen sense of something or other and it is in this case pastry...have some meaning or function (presumably not comic?)? Or is it the very meaninglessness that is the point at that point? Is it some prolonged, gigantic punctionation to the fact that something or other has been resolved to the general satisfaction?

I'm asking since, apparently, I have only the most general and not-keen sense of the audience for such things as swastika threads and their prolonged lack of sense of conclusion....or is that the point? That there is no way of concluding such a "discussion"?

Dawno · Mar 16, 2007

I think you hit the nail on the head - there is no way of concluding that discussion. All the off topic blather at the end of a contentious thread is like the buzz in a theatre after a particularly intense movie has ended. Some of it is just letting off emotional steam in a non-threatening manner, other of it is just "well, that was intense, do you want to go get a Jamba Juice or something?"

Cath · Mar 16, 2007

Sokal said:
That there is no way of concluding such a "discussion"?

I guess that's one of the challenges of a forum based discussion. Person to person, you can either shake hands and agree to disagree, or walk away. Here, it's always there - just sitting there staring.

Higgins · Mar 16, 2007

Oh dear

Dawno said:
I think you hit the nail on the head - there is no way of concluding that discussion. All the off topic blather at the end of a contentious thread is like the buzz in a theatre after a particularly intense movie has ended. Some of it is just letting off emotional steam in a non-threatening manner, other of it is just "well, that was intense, do you want to go get a Jamba Juice or something?"

These things are all much more socially functional than I thought. It probably is significant that they are offering food images to each other.

Well...you live and you learn and I evidently have a lot more to learn about the AWWcooler audience/population.

Higgins · Mar 16, 2007

So there is some displacement behavior

Cath said:
I guess that's one of the challenges of a forum based discussion. Person to person, you can either shake hands and agree to disagree, or walk away. Here, it's always there - just sitting there staring.

So the atmosphere is more tense and awkward than I am able to see? There is some displacement behavior? Ie some sorts of aggressive impulses are being manifest in peripheral ways?

This is quite instructive.

Dawno · Mar 16, 2007

Sokal said:
It probably is significant that they are offering food images to each other.

You should go find some of the threads where the discussion turned to the relative merits of haggis (the ,um, food, not the AW member).

I have saved a picture of a haggis on my Photobucket account for just those occasions.

MacAllister · Mar 16, 2007

Oh god, Dawno...you promised to only use that in an emergency!

Higgins · Mar 16, 2007

Ritual offerings

Dawno said:
You should go find some of the threads where the discussion turned to the relative merits of haggis (the ,um, food, not the AW member).

I have saved a picture of a haggis on my Photobucket account for just those occasions.

My, this is so civilized. Look at all that Scotch. Yes, I must look into the proper rituals for concluding a thread. I'll have to find some good food images.

Akuma · Mar 16, 2007

Thanks a lot, Dawno.

. . .think I'm gonna be sick. . . :e2thud:

SpookyWriter · Mar 16, 2007

Me too...

SpookyWriter · Mar 16, 2007

Geez people. Can we please keep the oversized pictures down to a minimum. My poor computer is choking on the uploads.

Thanks for your consideration.

Jean Marie · Mar 16, 2007

Hats off, Sokal

, you're catching on.

And I love mangoes!

Non-Swastika non-discussion

Higgins

Dawno

Shiny!

Higgins

ColoradoGuy

I've seen worse.

Ol' Fashioned Girl

Hand? What hand?

Higgins

Deleted member 42

Higgins

Dawno

Shiny!

Higgins

Higgins

ColoradoGuy

I've seen worse.

Deleted member 42

Higgins

Dawno

Shiny!

Cath

The mean one

Higgins

Higgins

Dawno

Shiny!

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

Higgins

Akuma

Rare Writer Pokemon

SpookyWriter

SpookyWriter

Jean Marie

calm waters ahead