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Higgins
03-16-2007, 05:38 AM
It's like General Dentz said when the Commonwealth shipped him and most of the Vichy French Garrison home from defeat in Syria (and Lebanon) in 1941:

"As for the British (for which we in the Critical Theory section can substitute their handful of brave epic-defenders), they are representatives of all those things we almost perished from: democratic-masonic politics and judeo-saxon finance."

Not perished, just shipped home in defeat. Almost perished. Like Quasi-Fascist Kittens.

Dawno
03-16-2007, 05:45 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/Ebil_Librarian/cat-internetcollapses.jpg

Higgins
03-16-2007, 05:46 AM
"As for the British (for which we in the Critical Theory section can substitute their handful of brave epic-defenders), they are representatives of all those things we almost perished from: democratic-masonic politics and judeo-saxon finance."


Thanks for summing up everything I hate about Vichy and Time magazine.

It's amazing how little of that Time account is true and how much of it is contradictory:
"Non-white" troops are discounted but "Blood-thirsty Circassians" are well, not to be belittled. And didn't General Collet change back to Vichy eventually? Weren't the Germans too busy recovering from their air loses in Iraq and getting ready to invade Russia to care about Syria and Lebanon? So the "spurious" non-Germans were doubly spurious.

PS: for some reason I deleted the account in Time magazine from early June 1941 which was in the thread header.

ColoradoGuy
03-16-2007, 06:02 AM
But where are we really? In the mythical space where symbols are never tainted by being appropriated by fascists? Gosh, if the Swastika is okay, why not mass gymnastics? Or a few squirts of eugenics? Or visiting the honored fascist dead? Or raving about the Judeo-Masonic conspiracy?
Well, I think the point is we are trying to avoid conflating the swastika with The Swastika. The former has been and will continue to be the symbol of several things. The latter is something else. Intelligent persons should be able to tell the difference between the two. Eugenics is eugenics, not a symbol of anything -- just a bad act in itself. Honoring the fascist dead would depend on whethering the honoring was as persons or as fascists. Ravings about conspiracies use words, which is a different matter than showing a wordless, context-free symbol. I have no idea about the gymnastics other than to say I hated Phys Ed class.

And if this symbol is truly tainted, then perhaps it is time for intelligent persons to do their part in untainting it.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
03-16-2007, 06:18 AM
:eek::Jaw: :gone:

Higgins
03-16-2007, 06:27 AM
And if this symbol is truly tainted, then perhaps it is time for intelligent persons to do their part in untainting it.

Alas...I like the photo and the links, but I will try to untaint my views of Swastikas.

Some untainting with Fewer kittens, more Killers of Fascists:

And here is Flight B (who were flying Gladiator biplanes in 1940 when they shot down 100 Fascist Aircraft):


Squadron Leader Donald Swift 'Don' Gregory DFM, RAF nos. 565558 (NCO); 47849 (Officer) http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/images/b_flight.jpg
'B' Flight of 80 Squadron at Yanina, Greece, who together shot down more than 100 enemy aircraft.
(Left to right): Sergeant Casbolt (http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_casbolt.htm), Sergeant Barker (http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_barker.htm), Sergeant Gregory, Pilot Officer Vale (http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_vale.htm), Flight Lieutenant Pattle (http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_pattle.htm), Pilot Officer Cullen (http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_cullen.htm).

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 06:32 AM
I myself have no objection to swastikas...they occur in some of the most mysterious Navaho sandpaintings....but let's do some collective growing up and admit that -- like it or not -- some things have some nasty associations for many people.

Let's also look at the discussion re: swastikas in the original context, because the discussion on AW is very very much seated in that context (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1196037&postcount=226).

In other words, it was not an abstract discussion, by any means.

Higgins
03-16-2007, 06:37 AM
Let's also look at the discussion re: swastikas in the original context, because the discussion on AW is very very much seated in that context (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1196037&postcount=226).

In other words, it was not an abstract discussion, by any means.

Ah, you are so right. Count me as ignorant. I withdraw all misgivings about swastikas. And I will delete some of my posts here.

Dawno
03-16-2007, 08:34 AM
And as for the kittens - surely there are times when comic relief is appropriate? It's a venerable concept going back to the earliest roots of writing. The court jester is very often the one who keeps things from escalating to bloodshed, no?

Don't diss the kitties.

Higgins
03-16-2007, 03:41 PM
And as for the kittens - surely there are times when comic relief is appropriate? It's a venerable concept going back to the earliest roots of writing. The court jester is very often the one who keeps things from escalating to bloodshed, no?

Don't diss the kitties.

Alas...my aim was comedy as well. I'm just not as funny as I think I am.

Higgins
03-16-2007, 03:46 PM
Alas...my aim was comedy as well. I'm just not as funny as I think I am.

I think Richard Nigel "Ape" Cullen seems kind of like comic relief even if he did kill a lot of fascists. No kitten he.


Flight Lieutenant Richard Nigel 'Ape' Cullen DFC, RAF no. 39967 http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/images/cullen_1.jpg

ColoradoGuy
03-16-2007, 06:34 PM
I'm just not as funny as I think I am.
Few of us are. Or, if we are, it's not for the reasons we think.

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 07:44 PM
In order to be funny, you have to have a very keen sense of your audience, and what will work for them. It's a writerly thing really, and there's a reason that style is one of the five parts of rhetoric; writers adjust their style to their topic, their occasion, and, most of all, to our audience.

Higgins
03-16-2007, 08:16 PM
In order to be funny, you have to have a very keen sense of your audience, and what will work for them. It's a writerly thing really, and there's a reason that style is one of the five parts of rhetoric; writers adjust their style to their topic, their occasion, and, most of all, to our audience.

So the prolonged tail-ends of threads such as we now are seeing in the Big Swastika thread...where everbody who has a keen sense of something or other and it is in this case pastry...have some meaning or function (presumably not comic?)? Or is it the very meaninglessness that is the point at that point? Is it some prolonged, gigantic punctionation to the fact that something or other has been resolved to the general satisfaction?

I'm asking since, apparently, I have only the most general and not-keen sense of the audience for such things as swastika threads and their prolonged lack of sense of conclusion....or is that the point? That there is no way of concluding such a "discussion"?

Dawno
03-16-2007, 08:20 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head - there is no way of concluding that discussion. All the off topic blather at the end of a contentious thread is like the buzz in a theatre after a particularly intense movie has ended. Some of it is just letting off emotional steam in a non-threatening manner, other of it is just "well, that was intense, do you want to go get a Jamba Juice or something?"

Cath
03-16-2007, 08:24 PM
That there is no way of concluding such a "discussion"?
I guess that's one of the challenges of a forum based discussion. Person to person, you can either shake hands and agree to disagree, or walk away. Here, it's always there - just sitting there staring.

Higgins
03-16-2007, 08:27 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head - there is no way of concluding that discussion. All the off topic blather at the end of a contentious thread is like the buzz in a theatre after a particularly intense movie has ended. Some of it is just letting off emotional steam in a non-threatening manner, other of it is just "well, that was intense, do you want to go get a Jamba Juice or something?"

These things are all much more socially functional than I thought. It probably is significant that they are offering food images to each other.

Well...you live and you learn and I evidently have a lot more to learn about the AWWcooler audience/population.

Higgins
03-16-2007, 08:30 PM
I guess that's one of the challenges of a forum based discussion. Person to person, you can either shake hands and agree to disagree, or walk away. Here, it's always there - just sitting there staring.

So the atmosphere is more tense and awkward than I am able to see? There is some displacement behavior? Ie some sorts of aggressive impulses are being manifest in peripheral ways?

This is quite instructive.

Dawno
03-16-2007, 08:31 PM
It probably is significant that they are offering food images to each other.

You should go find some of the threads where the discussion turned to the relative merits of haggis (the ,um, food, not the AW member). :)

I have saved a picture of a haggis on my Photobucket account for just those occasions.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/Ebil_Librarian/haggis.jpg

MacAllister
03-16-2007, 08:52 PM
Oh god, Dawno...you promised to only use that in an emergency!

Higgins
03-16-2007, 08:59 PM
You should go find some of the threads where the discussion turned to the relative merits of haggis (the ,um, food, not the AW member). :)

I have saved a picture of a haggis on my Photobucket account for just those occasions.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/Ebil_Librarian/haggis.jpg

My, this is so civilized. Look at all that Scotch. Yes, I must look into the proper rituals for concluding a thread. I'll have to find some good food images.

Akuma
03-16-2007, 08:59 PM
Thanks a lot, Dawno.


. . .think I'm gonna be sick. . .:e2thud:

SpookyWriter
03-16-2007, 09:02 PM
Me too...

SpookyWriter
03-16-2007, 09:06 PM
Geez people. Can we please keep the oversized pictures down to a minimum. My poor computer is choking on the uploads.

Thanks for your consideration.

Jean Marie
03-16-2007, 09:15 PM
Hats off, Sokal :), you're catching on.

And I love mangoes!

Rolling Thunder
03-16-2007, 09:26 PM
Actually, Sokal, I have also noticed your sense of humor (when compared to your earliest posts on AW) is becoming more understandable, to me at least. Most are still over my head but a few have acquired that 'gleam' to them, where I can catch the insight of your meaning. They are like enigmas, waiting for me to unearth some hidden meaning I might be missing.

I don't know if this means your humor is becoming more defined by my own perception or I'm learning to identify the under current of your own thoughts. At least not yet; I'll keep reading your posts though, in the hope to understand better. It is a rather interesting process.

Dawno
03-16-2007, 09:40 PM
Oh god, Dawno...you promised to only use that in an emergency!

I did? You know how forgetful I am these days.

SpookyWriter
03-16-2007, 09:44 PM
Actually, Sokal, I have also noticed your sense of humor (when compared to your earliest posts on AW) is becoming more understandable, to me at least. Most are still over my head but a few have acquired that 'gleam' to them, where I can catch the insight of your meaning. They are like enigmas, waiting for me to unearth some hidden meaning I might be missing.

I don't know if this means your humor is becoming more defined by my own perception or I'm learning to identify the under current of your own thoughts. At least not yet; I'll keep reading your posts though, in the hope to understand better. It is a rather interesting process.:roll:

Higgins
03-16-2007, 10:10 PM
Actually, Sokal, I have also noticed your sense of humor (when compared to your earliest posts on AW) is becoming more understandable, to me at least. Most are still over my head but a few have acquired that 'gleam' to them, where I can catch the insight of your meaning. They are like enigmas, waiting for me to unearth some hidden meaning I might be missing.

I don't know if this means your humor is becoming more defined by my own perception or I'm learning to identify the under current of your own thoughts. At least not yet; I'll keep reading your posts though, in the hope to understand better. It is a rather interesting process.

This is definitely good news. For me. For us all. For the World.

On the other hand, it's a shock to find that not only are you (I mean me) not as funny as you (I mean me) think you are, but that in the past, you were even less funny. I mean I was even less funny.

I'm trying to be philosophical about it. Thanks for letting me know I have made some progress.

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 10:25 PM
I have only the most general and not-keen sense of the audience for such things as swastika threads and their prolonged lack of sense of conclusion....or is that the point? That there is no way of concluding such a "discussion"?

Dawno's mostly answered this, but part of it is the nature of community -- there are a lot of contextual subtexts in those posts, and without a real grounding in the community and its social network, you're not going to get the subtexts, or the jokes.

Rolling Thunder
03-16-2007, 10:25 PM
Well, humor is a stone that can hone intelligence (In my opinion, anyway). The Marx Brothers are a good example. Some of their works are so rapid fire and tightly wound with sarcastic wit it's nearly impossible to understand all of what they mean, without going back to study the intended message.

The point is of course, humor is as subjective as its audience. I lean more towards irony in most cases. The pastry reference in the Swastika Thread is a good case; Rob's link opened up a completely new avenue of understanding for me, on how one group of ludicrous leaders (in Iran) chose to 'punish' another country.

I could feel the Dane's resolve to stand against such tyranny crumbling (pun intended), all the way across the ocean. :)

ETA: Medievalist said it, in less words.

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 10:27 PM
You should go find some of the threads where the discussion turned to the relative merits of haggis (the ,um, food, not the AW member). :)

I have saved a picture of a haggis on my Photobucket account for just those occasions.

I wish to point out that that picture also clearly shows a glass of single malt.

There's a reason for that . . .

ColoradoGuy
03-16-2007, 10:45 PM
I was staring at that big old stag-handled knife. I thought haggis was always cleaved with a broadsword previously dipped in the blood of an Englishman.

Rolling Thunder
03-16-2007, 10:50 PM
I wish to point out that that picture also clearly shows a glass of single malt.

There's a reason for that . . .

Explain, please, or point me in the right direction to learn why. :)

Dawno
03-16-2007, 10:56 PM
Dawno's mostly answered this, but part of it is the nature of community -- there are a lot of contextual subtexts in those posts, and without a real grounding in the community and its social network, you're not going to get the subtexts, or the jokes.


And even moreso - the whole subtext of jokes and standards going back to the very first online discussions - bbbs, Usenet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet), user groups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Users%27_group), as well as in fandom. There is a lot of overlap as many writers are geeky and many geeks are writers and/or avid readers. I also learn a lot from reading MakingLight, BoingBoing, Slashdot (also seen as /.), FARK, the online cartoon strip UserFriendly - stuff like that - and following their links to other sites as well.

Having a sysadmin for a husband helps, he explains a lot, or sends me links to things. I live on the fringes of the geekworld at work, as well, so it behooves me to have a passing understanding of their culture and mores.

It takes a lot of exposure and patience and even research to understand some of the puns, asides and subtleties. A great place to start is in the Jargon Files - some links to various iterations can be found at the very bottom of the Jargon File (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jargon_file) page on Wikipedia. I've spent many an hour perusing this version of the Jargon Files (http://www.catb.org/%7Eesr/jargon/)

Higgins
03-16-2007, 11:10 PM
And even moreso -


A great place to start is in the Jargon Files - some links to various iterations can be found at the very bottom of the Jargon File (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jargon_file) page on Wikipedia. I've spent many an hour perusing this version of the Jargon Files (http://www.catb.org/%7Eesr/jargon/)

Well...this one is shockingly good. I laughed. I sorta cried. cried. cried(from Jargon files):


A disciple of another sect once came to Drescher as he was eating his morning meal.
€œI would like to give you this personality test€, said the outsider, €œbecause I want you to be happy.€
Drescher took the paper that was offered him and put it into the toaster, saying: €œI wish the toaster to be happy, too.€

the €s seem to add an air of archaic mystery. €

Jean Marie
03-16-2007, 11:18 PM
Explain, please, or point me in the right direction to learn why. :)
She's thirsty :)

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 11:22 PM
Explain, please, or point me in the right direction to learn why. :)

Haggis can be palatable, but it is sort of . . .odd to contemplate as a dish, and, often, the oatmeal makes it unpalatably dry.

There are jokes made by many Scots about the need for single malt as a pallative for haggis.

aruna
03-20-2007, 11:23 AM
And if this symbol is truly tainted, then perhaps it is time for intelligent persons to do their part in untainting it.

(I posted this BEFORE reading the original Swastika thread - so my apologies. My post is redundant, but I'll leave it up all the same.)

I think the problem started when whoever it was named the Nazi symbol Swastika. Swastika is an ancient Sanskrit term meaning "well-being". The Nazis never called their symbol swastika. they called in Hakenkreuz - and it is called that to this day. Hakenkreuz translated means "hook-cross", which is what it is. The Nazi symbol is also not the same as the Hindu Swastika.

It was an unfortunate decision to translate Hakenkreuz as Swastika; it means that less culturally exposed people constantly jumble up the two.

This Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) explains the difference quite well.

(ps Just finished reading the Swastika thread; and I didn't intend to restart it here. All I can say is - LOVED the kittens!)

Medievalist
03-20-2007, 07:42 PM
The Swastika thing was used because in the early history of the Nazi decision they used the term; they knew what they were perverting, and wanted to have the so-called Aryan connection.