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Robert Toy
03-15-2007, 03:20 PM
Mac,

Playing follow-the-leader and adopting the swastika on your signature line, irrespective of the myriad of explanations, is a blatant attempt to annoy certain people who you dislike. It is your forum and you can do with it as you wish, but you are degrading the good name of AW in your quest for revenge.

Don’t even attempt to say this has anything to do with freedom of speech; you have too many posts that prove otherwise. And to all the sheep that will just silent follow along, I pity you all.

Hurry, delete this post and ban me before anyone sees this!

K1P1
03-15-2007, 03:27 PM
...is a blatant attempt to annoy certain people who you dislike.

Shouldn't that be "...whom you dislike"?

Ol' Fashioned Girl
03-15-2007, 03:45 PM
Hurry, delete this post and ban me before anyone sees this!

Oh, good grief!

Robert Toy
03-15-2007, 03:57 PM
Shouldn't that be "...whom you dislike"?
Thank you.

Cav Guy
03-15-2007, 07:05 PM
Mac,

Playing follow-the-leader and adopting the swastika on your signature line, irrespective of the myriad of explanations, is a blatant attempt to annoy certain people who you dislike. It is your forum and you can do with it as you wish, but you are degrading the good name of AW in your quest for revenge.

Don’t even attempt to say this has anything to do with freedom of speech; you have too many posts that prove otherwise. And to all the sheep that will just silent follow along, I pity you all.

Hurry, delete this post and ban me before anyone sees this!

Yawn.

Sorry...had to do it. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Nice changes, BTW.:) I like the new organization quite a bit.

skelly
03-15-2007, 08:28 PM
Mac,

Playing follow-the-leader and adopting the swastika on your signature line, irrespective of the myriad of explanations, is a blatant attempt to annoy certain people who you dislike. It is your forum and you can do with it as you wish, but you are degrading the good name of AW in your quest for revenge.

Don’t even attempt to say this has anything to do with freedom of speech; you have too many posts that prove otherwise. And to all the sheep that will just silent follow along, I pity you all.

Hurry, delete this post and ban me before anyone sees this!
No, you don't get it. She is the leader.

Robert Toy
03-15-2007, 08:31 PM
No, you don't get it. She is the leader.
No, you don’t get it. She was not the first to post the Swastika/Hindu/Buddhist symbol, which I see is now being picked up by a few others. Kind of like the gopher cult, except with swastikas.

skelly
03-15-2007, 08:36 PM
No, you don’t get it. She was not the first to post the Swastika/Hindu/Buddhist symbol, which I see is now being picked up by a few others. Kind of like the gopher cult, except with swastikas.
No I do get it you dipshit. Jesus, I can't even get along with the people that I agree with. Look at the first sentence in your first friggin post and then use your imagination.

dpaterso
03-15-2007, 08:41 PM
Manners, please. Someday your children may read this.

-Derek

skelly
03-15-2007, 08:46 PM
Manners, please. Someday your children may read this.

-Derek
Then I take it Mr. Haskins will not be appearing in this thread? :)

Robert Toy
03-15-2007, 08:47 PM
No I do get it you dipshit. Jesus, I can't even get along with the people that I agree with. Look at the first sentence in your first friggin post and then use your imagination.
Excellent reply, resorting to name-calling is always a great opening line.

PeeDee
03-15-2007, 08:50 PM
No, you don’t get it. She was not the first to post the Swastika/Hindu/Buddhist symbol, which I see is now being picked up by a few others. Kind of like the gopher cult, except with swastikas.

Sorry, kiddo, the swastika was a worldwide symbol before the Nazi's got a hold of it. I think your complaint needs to reach a little further than just this set of boards.

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 08:51 PM
No, you don’t get it. She was not the first to post the Swastika/Hindu/Buddhist symbol, which I see is now being picked up by a few others. Kind of like the gopher cult, except with swastikas.

Do you have a problem with the Hindu/Buddhist symbol?

Are you trying to offend Hindis and Buddhists?

I told you to get your fight out of here. This is not the time and place. Do you have any manners? If you have a problem, start your own thread.

How rude.


Here, for your enjoyment:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/9/9d/200px-HinduSwastika.svg.png

skelly
03-15-2007, 08:52 PM
Excellent reply, resorting to name-calling is always a great opening line.
As is attacking the owner of the site with your first freakin post. I might add.

skelly
03-15-2007, 08:57 PM
Do you have a problem with the Hindu/Buddhist symbol?

Are you trying to offend Hindis and Buddhists?

I told you to get your fight out of here. This is not the time and place. Do you have any manners? If you have a problem, start your own thread.

How rude.


Here, for your enjoyment:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/9/9d/200px-HinduSwastika.svg.png
Any placew she posts is the time and/or the place ... if she's gonna put that in her sig. I'm sorry. I don't buy the "they stole it so we're stealing it back" crap. It offends people, and I would expect the owner fo the g.d. site to respect that. I'm going to follow Birol's orders starting now... :)

Robert Toy
03-15-2007, 09:05 PM
Ray,

Pssst…Your ignorance is sticking out. Taunting is a baby’s game, the symbol has been stained by the blood of millions of human beings, and you can’t rehabilitate it on a Western forum site! You are just pissing people off, you know it and you are continuing to be vicious and petty.

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:11 PM
Now that we have a pop culture board, all I need now to be content is someone to give me a World Studies board of some sort, in which I can have my Science Fact forum, a World History forum, a Sociology & Mythology forum....

Well, I can dream. :)
Usually when a thread goes off course you are leading the charge ... and joking about it. Come on Pete. :)

PeeDee
03-15-2007, 09:13 PM
Usually when a thread goes off course you are leading the charge ... and joking about it. Come on Pete. :)

Sorry. Humor's got it's place. I'm fond of it, but it's not the end-all be-all, though I occasionally grow concerned that it's what people expect from me around here... :)

(anyway, it was a Very Silly Indeed off-topic discussion that wasn't worth following)

veinglory
03-15-2007, 09:17 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/veinglory/swas.jpg

Crosses were burned on people lawns--but it was the fault of the bigot, not the symbol. I prefer to celebrate the world's great cultures and religions--all of them. People who honor this ancient symbol don't piss me off, only those who collude with Nazis in desecrating it.

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:17 PM
Alright ... before anything else happens, lets all place bets on how long this thread lasts before it gets locked. I'm thinking it won't make it past midnight tonight.

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:20 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/veinglory/swas.jpg

Crosses were burned on people lawns--but it was the fault of the bigot, not the symbol.
Nobody is saying that Hitler invented the swastika. Some people are saying (and I am one of them) that since 30 million people were slaughtered under that symbol, as misused by the Nazis, it just MIGHT be a bit offensive. And honestly .... is this message board the place to launch your "swastikas rock" campaign? Seriously?

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 09:21 PM
And this is not a "western" board, by the way. Members from all over the world, of all cultures and faiths, gather here. Don't forget that.

And Skelly, we understand why some people might be offended by the symbol because of the Nazis. But it's also offensive to ask someone to take down a peace symbol (if you look closely, the Nazi swastika is different than the peace symbol) or to imply that those of us who use the symbols are hate-mongers or endorse the holocaust or whatever. The symbol is used in Buddhist temples everywhere, even in the US. We're not going to tell them to take the symbols down, are we?

veinglory
03-15-2007, 09:22 PM
Yes, because this thread is about telling one of our members that he can't use his sacred symbol. I am willing to be part of the nasty campaign to support his freedom of religion. The Star of David is often mistaken, by the ignorant, for a Satanist pentacle but that isn't a good reason to censor it or suggest people should be too ashamed to display it.

TsukiRyoko
03-15-2007, 09:26 PM
Actually, it's not a swastika. It's a Buddhism/Hinduism sign. I also think you're an ignorant, petulant little piss-ant (though pretty ballsy) for posting an entire thread for something like this. Mac is a very nice lady, and wouldn't go out of her way to offend someone using a symbol.

Try to do your research before attacking people.

Rolling Thunder
03-15-2007, 09:27 PM
It has symbolic meaning? I thought she was looking for a part for her rototiller.
http://yeowng.cox.net.namezero.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/rototiller-attachment.jpg.w300h225.jpg
(http://yeowng.cox.net.namezero.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/rototiller-attachment.jpg.w300h225.jpg)

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:27 PM
Yes, because this thread is about telling one of our members that he can't use his sacred symbol. I am willing to be part of the nasty campaign to support his freedom of religion. The Star of David is often mistaken, by the ignorant, for a Satanist pentacle but that isn't a good reason to censor it or suggest people should be too ashamed to display it.
Have you given equal weight to both sides? I can see that you are fully on Bart's side, but what about the offended party? Have you thoroughly vetted that?

eta: see, you can never convince me. This is a board where I had my freedom of speech abridged (and a two star thread locked) because I dared to use the tern "Islamofascist." You people aren't all about freedom of anything. Somebody has an anti-semitic agenda ... and it is showing.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 09:30 PM
Yes, I thought about it very carefully. But freedom of religion is an absolute. It must be defended at all costs by all people in a free society. I know none of these people personally and a directed only by my own beleifs. Just because someone is offended doesn't mean they are right.

TsukiRyoko
03-15-2007, 09:30 PM
Sorry, kiddo, the swastika was a worldwide symbol before the Nazi's got a hold of it. I think your complaint needs to reach a little further than just this set of boards.
Unless I'm incorrect, I believe the swastika (going in the direction it is now) was birthed from Catholicism....

TsukiRyoko
03-15-2007, 09:32 PM
Yes, because this thread is about telling one of our members that he can't use his sacred symbol. I am willing to be part of the nasty campaign to support his freedom of religion. The Star of David is often mistaken, by the ignorant, for a Satanist pentacle but that isn't a good reason to censor it or suggest people should be too ashamed to display it.
:( So is the Wiccan pentacle. I have to go through loads of crap to wear mine.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 09:33 PM
It's a fascinating symbol with a very long past--from well before the advent of Judeo-Christian religions and politics.

Meerkat
03-15-2007, 09:33 PM
Generally speaking, the Buddhist "swatstika" is flowing clockwise, and is aligned as if resting squarely. That Nazi bad boy is flowing counterclockwise, and is usally aligned on end, like a diamond. They would therefore be as different as, say, a Confederate stars-and-bars cross, and a crucifix.

William Haskins
03-15-2007, 09:33 PM
Then I take it Mr. Haskins will not be appearing in this thread?

seems hardly worth it for this type of manufactured outrage.

scarletpeaches
03-15-2007, 09:34 PM
Rudeness offends me more than any symbol which inherently means nothing.

If others want to attach meaning to it, just like letters of the alphabet, numbers or a vague scribble on a piece of paper, so be it. But rudeness never endears your argument to those on 'the other side'.

Plenty of people on these boards offend me. You know what? I just suck it up.

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:34 PM
Yes, I thought about it very carefully. But freedom of religion is an absolute. It must be defended at all costs by all people in a free society. I know none of these people personally and a directed only by my own beleifs. Just because someone is offended doesn't mean they are right.
See, that doesn't work for me. The swastika will be forever associated with fascist murders. Deal with it. Don't blame me. Direct your anger at the bastards who forever soiled your sacred symbol.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 09:34 PM
:( So is the Wiccan pentacle. I have to go through loads of crap to wear mine.

Quite so. Although I must admit that my response was to get a larger one :) I have a lot of conversations about that necklace but they almost always end well when I explain the history of the symbol and it's meaning to me. Ditto my green man badge.

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 09:34 PM
Yes, I thought about it very carefully. But freedom of religion is an absolute. It must be defended at all costs by all people in a free society. I know none of these people personally and a directed only by my own beleifs. Just because someone is offended doesn't mean they are right.

I agree with V. And we do allow freedom of speech, and that's why you don't see this thread being censored, and we do try to see every point of view. But for someone to come here, accuse a Buddhist for using a hate symbol, is WRONG. And we certainly are not going to ask anyone to stop using a peace symbol that has nothing to do with hate or the Nazis (again, please study the sybmols and note the differences).

There is a thread somewhere called "I'm Offended by..." Maybe that's a good place to go and vent.

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:35 PM
seems hardly worth it for this type of manufactured outrage.
Depends on who's doing the manufacturing.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 09:36 PM
I'm not angry. I am proud of all sacred symbol as exressions of the best of humanity.

scarletpeaches
03-15-2007, 09:36 PM
See, that doesn't work for me. The swastika will be forever associated with fascist murders. Deal with it. Don't blame me. Direct your anger at the bastards who forever soiled your sacred symbol.

Wow. Suppose those evil Catholics better stop using the cross, too, in case anyone thinks they're anti-muslim crusaders.

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 09:36 PM
See, that doesn't work for me. The swastika will be forever associated with fascist murders. Deal with it. Don't blame me. Direct your anger at the bastards who forever soiled your sacred symbol.

That's where you are WRONG. Go to a Buddhist temple.

YOU are the one who will forever associate the swastika with fascist murders. Millions of Buddhists and Hindus don't agree with you.

Again, please study the symbols and note the difference.

I am sorry it "doesn't work for you." But unfortunately, the world doesn't revolve around you, so I suggest that you do what ScarletPeaches does: suck it up.

Medievalist
03-15-2007, 09:37 PM
Nobody is saying that Hitler invented the swastika. Some people are saying (and I am one of them) that since 30 million people were slaughtered under that symbol, as misused by the Nazis, it just MIGHT be a bit offensive. And honestly .... is this message board the place to launch your "swastikas rock" campaign? Seriously?

It isn't the same symbol. It really really isn't.

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:38 PM
Wow. Suppose those evil Catholics better stop using the cross, too, in case anyone thinks they're anti-muslim crusaders.
I AM an anti muslim crusader, actually. And Catholic. ;)

veinglory
03-15-2007, 09:39 PM
There seems to be a belief that feelings are always right and always a trump card. Just as thoughts can be factually incorrect, so can feelings--and we can decide to change them.

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:40 PM
It isn't the same symbol. It really really isn't.
Med you of all people I respect. It doesn't matter which way the G.D. thing is facing ........ we ALL KNOW what happend to it eventually. You people keep trying to talk ancient history ... I am just pointing out that in the last 80 years MOST people don't see your peaceful what the hell ever. And it is considered offensive. Ands apparently we are real selective about WHOM we choose not to offend on this board.

Rolling Thunder
03-15-2007, 09:40 PM
There seems to be a belief that feelings are always right and always a trump card. Just as thoughts can be factually incorrect, so can feelings--and we can decide to change them.

We kinda hashed this thought to death in the Slavery apology thread.

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:41 PM
I AM an anti muslim crusader, actually. And Catholic. ;)
That's a joke ..... dang. This isn't even my thread ..... why am I putting myself through this? :)

William Haskins
03-15-2007, 09:41 PM
http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/eden/manson_half.jpg

.........."i'm a hindooooo, man!"

William Haskins
03-15-2007, 09:42 PM
apparently we are real selective about WHOM we choose not to offend on this board.

speak for yourself.

scarletpeaches
03-15-2007, 09:42 PM
I can understand the argument that most people associate the swastika with Nazism. Is that any reason, on the basis of the past 70 years, to change 7000 years' worth of religious heritage?

scarletpeaches
03-15-2007, 09:43 PM
speak for yourself.

Haskins offends everyone. It's universal. ;)

veinglory
03-15-2007, 09:43 PM
Who dictates what most people feel? And does it matter. How could we ever justify telling anyone to be ashamed of their religious symbols... ever? How could anyone do that? There are Hindu and Buddhists on this forum right now, and Muslims, Jews and pagans. They are all welcome--so long as they respect each other.

One person's predjudice does not trump another's religion.

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 09:45 PM
I can understand the argument that most people associate the swastika with Nazism. Is that any reason, on the basis of the past 70 years, to change 7000 years' worth of religious heritage?

We are giving Hitler WAY too much power.

It's like telling people they can't use crosses anymore because the KKK murdered people under them.

Too much power.

Meerkat
03-15-2007, 09:48 PM
Direct your anger at the bastards who forever soiled your sacred symbol.

They didn't soil it, and no right-minded Buddhist is angry about such a possibility. The actual case would be anything the Nazis did was as much a part of the human condition as the best any of the best did at the other end of the spectrum, and as much a part of who and what we are. It is rather handy that the symbols are reminiscent of each other, as a reminder in the not-so-long laundry list of "things not to do...."

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:48 PM
speak for yourself.
Point taken.

skelly
03-15-2007, 09:52 PM
Who dictates what most people feel? And does it matter. How could we ever justify telling anyone to be ashamed of their religious symbols... ever? How could anyone do that? There are Hindu and Buddhists on this forum right now, and Muslims, Jews and pagans. They are all welcome--so long as they respect each other.

One person's predjudice does not trump another's religion.
So if a Jew is offended by the Hindu use of a swastika he is .... what? Fucked? Would it not be better to simply disallow ALL religious symbols?

TsukiRyoko
03-15-2007, 09:53 PM
We are giving Hitler WAY too much power.

It's like telling people they can't use crosses anymore because the KKK murdered people under them.

Too much power.
*big nod* Very good point, Ray.

scarletpeaches
03-15-2007, 09:53 PM
Yeah but he was quoting me. :D

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 09:54 PM
Well, the symbol predates the Nazi swastika by over 2000 years, so I'd say, yeah, we feel your pain. But religious freedom trumps your hurt feelings.

Rolling Thunder
03-15-2007, 09:55 PM
So if a Jew is offended by the Hindu use of a swastika he is .... what? Fucked? Would it not be better to simply disallow ALL religious symbols?

When did socialism become such an intelligent subject of human expression? I must have missed this, somewhere.

Medievalist
03-15-2007, 09:55 PM
Med you of all people I respect. It doesn't matter which way the G.D. thing is facing ........ we ALL KNOW what happend to it eventually. You people keep trying to talk ancient history ... I am just pointing out that in the last 80 years MOST people don't see your peaceful what the hell ever. And it is considered offensive. Ands apparently we are real selective about WHOM we choose not to offend on this board.

There's a Buddist temple here with the symbol on the roof top, on the doors, and an the Buddha in the front. It's also on the cloth coverings, and on the letterhead of the temple.

The Jewish Anti Defamation League doesn't consider the Buddhist, Hindu and Hopi symbols offensive.

The Jews I asked, both my kin by marriage and my grandmother's kin, don't see the Nazi icon of hate as the same symbol as the Buddhist, Hindu, Hopi, and Celtic symbols. The Catholic Church in Ireland, which puts the Celtic version, Bride's Cross, on the altar in February doesn't consider that to be the same symbol. These are all ancient Indo-European icons, and not the same as the Nazi symbol. The Nazis deliberately altered the ancient symbol to create theirs. I refuse to let that legacy of hate impinge on a symbol of peace.

Should I also reject the Star of David because in the Middle ages and during the Nazi regime it was used to mark Jews as unfit? Should I reject the Christian cross because the Romans used it to mark Christians as criminals to be killed, preferably in gladitorial spectacles?

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 10:00 PM
Or reclaim it, much like the gay and lesbian community reclaiming the pink triangle.

Like I said, don't give Hitler too much power.

Robert Toy
03-15-2007, 10:01 PM
Just in case anyone was wondering why I didn't post any further repose to the Symbology thread, it is because it was moved into TIO, and I can’t go there.

dclary
03-15-2007, 10:01 PM
Guys, let's look at this from a different angle. If Tourdy can launch weekly attacks on the Confederate flag, why not let Robert launch attacks on the broken cross?

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 10:03 PM
D, the difference is Tourdy is attacking THE flag, but Robert is attack the wrong symbol.

;)

Now, if he wants to attack the REAL Nazi swastika, I'd say, go for it.

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:03 PM
These are all ancient Indo-European icons, and not the same as the Nazi symbol. The Nazis deliberately altered the ancient symbol to create theirs. I refuse to let that legacy of hate impinge on a symbol of peace.
You can refuse all you want Med. But you are a student of history, as am I. I ask again ... is this message board the place to launch you "save the swastika" campaign. It is not. And you cannot put the rights of the observant Hindu above the rights of the offended Jew. You COULD ban all religious symbols completely. Starting with the owner of the freakin board.

Yes, I believe there is something more sinister going on than the supposed "save the swastika" campaign.

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 10:07 PM
For the LAST TIME, skelly, it's NOT the same symbol. If you refuse to acknowledge that (and Medievalist knows what she's talking about), then there's really nothing we can say to you.


YOU ARE THE ONLY person insinuating "Save the Swastika" campaign.

Like Haskins said, this is manufactured outrage.


Have a nice day.

Meerkat
03-15-2007, 10:13 PM
Robert, welcome to AW. That was as memorable an entry as I can ever recall seeing. We have all types of folks here, who all seem to love each other, or at least hold the door for each other when they don't.

At first, I thought you WERE Mac, playing a joke on the rest of us. But now that I see you are for real, welcome. Hope you can teach us more about how to be a successful writer, which is why most of us are on the site. You can learn a great deal from the others, as they are constantly improving my writing every day, and they are improving my very being as a person, every day.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 10:14 PM
I find that I very much can put the rights of the observant Hindu above the rights of the offended Jew. ...and you could reverse or change the religions to anything you like.

Rolling Thunder
03-15-2007, 10:15 PM
G, Toy was here a long time ago. Left for some unexplained reason.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 10:15 PM
Make 50 posts, collect 200 dollars and pass 'Go'. Or use the sockpuppet EXIT to the left. Have a nice day.

Melina
03-15-2007, 10:16 PM
The Jewish Anti Defamation League doesn't consider the Buddhist, Hindu and Hopi symbols offensive.


These are all ancient Indo-European icons, and not the same as the Nazi symbol.

Precisely. And shouldn't a reasonable, educated adult admit he or she was mistaken when it is proven that the source of their offended feelings was not what they thought it was? It's not a Nazi symbol, it's a religious symbol of peace. It's as simple as that. There's not even an intelligent argument to be made. The outrage was the result of a mistake. Do the right thing and admit it, apologize and move on.

dclary
03-15-2007, 10:16 PM
D, the difference is Tourdy is attacking THE flag, but Robert is attack the wrong symbol.

;)

Now, if he wants to attack the REAL Nazi swastika, I'd say, go for it.

Dang. I was just trying to protect the stars and bars. :p

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:17 PM
For the LAST TIME, skelly, it's NOT the same symbol. If you refuse to acknowledge that (and Medievalist knows what she's talking about), then there's really nothing we can say to you.


YOU ARE THE ONLY person insinuating "Save the Swastika" campaign.

Like Haskins said, this is manufactured outrage.


Have a nice day.
I had believed you to be of greater intelligence than that. You refuse to see the angle that I am presenting you. You keep talking about the history of the symbol. But that is not what I am trying to express. Have a nice day yourself.

davids
03-15-2007, 10:17 PM
Hey Bob whats up? Long time no see-how's yer socks? Glad to see ya glad-Dave

Robert Toy
03-15-2007, 10:18 PM
Robert, welcome to AW. That was as memorable an entry as I can ever recall seeing. We have all types of folks here, who all seem to love each other, or at least hold the door for each other when they don't.

At first, I thought you WERE Mac, playing a joke on the rest of us. But now that I see you are for real, welcome. Hope you can teach us more about how to be a successful writer, which is why most of us are on the site. You can learn a great deal from the others, as they are constantly improving my writing every day, and they are improving my very being as a person, every day.
Thank you for the welcome, but I am far from a newbie, in my former life I had over 3,700 posts. There is some good info available here if you can stay away from... :)

veinglory
03-15-2007, 10:20 PM
One of my students was offended by my "satanic" backpack--um, it was a picture of Darth Maul from Star Wars. I kept using it. I guess I just have no respect for other people's feelings.

William Haskins
03-15-2007, 10:22 PM
Endgame

As the tide of dawn
crept across the face of the earth
and brought morning, in turn,
to all nations,
there appeared,
in every village, town, and city square,
a symbol indecipherable,
wrought from a material
that no man could name.

The curious came
from their homes and their churches,
schools and offices,
an ocean of faces,
gazing in wonder
at the symbol unknown;
each of them desperate
to call it his own.

Christian
Muslim
Hindu
Jew

Fascist
Racist
Atheist

Occultist
Buddhist
Scientist

Capitalist and
Communist

Stepped up to
claim his destiny-

and couldn’t murder
fast enough.

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:22 PM
Precisely. And shouldn't a reasonable, educated adult admit he or she was mistaken when it is proven that the source of their offended feelings was not what they thought it was? It's not a Nazi symbol, it's a religious symbol of peace. It's as simple as that. There's not even an intelligent argument to be made. The outrage was the result of a mistake. Do the right thing and admit it, apologize and move on.
A swastika is a swastika is a swastika. You INTELLECTAULS can debate the fucking history of the thing until hell bubbles up and kisses your ass. The bottom line is that NOW, in THIS DAY AND MOTHER FUCKING AGE, the symbol means mass murder. I am very sorry that Adolph Hitler besmirched your precious symbol. But he did. Move on. Deal with it. Quit putting it in your sigs and pretending that it has something to do wioth history.

Rolling Thunder
03-15-2007, 10:23 PM
Thank you for the welcome, but I am far from a newbie, in my former life I had over 3,700 posts. There is some good info available here if you can stay away from... :)

:ROFL: .....Robert or TIO?

William Haskins
03-15-2007, 10:23 PM
there's a vein jumping from your forehead, isn't there?

Cath
03-15-2007, 10:25 PM
It doesn't matter which way the G.D. thing is facing ........
Well frankly, yes it does. That's like saying an it doesn't matter if an arrow points left or right - even if it sends a people in the wrong direction.

Many symbols are similar, inverted or with minor alterations.

Heck - a "u" is just an upside down "n" - but they are not the same thing. The only difference is the direction they face - but that's enough to embue them with an entirely different meaning, sound and purpose.

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:27 PM
there's a vein jumping from your forehead, isn't there?
It's vibratin a little ... but I got plenty of beer. I can control it. :)

William Haskins
03-15-2007, 10:28 PM
nothing fuels a reasoned argument like beer.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 10:28 PM
Context is everything. <3

dclary
03-15-2007, 10:29 PM
A swastika is a swastika is a swastika. You INTELLECTAULS can debate the fucking history of the thing until hell bubbles up and kisses your ass. The bottom line is that NOW, in THIS DAY AND MOTHER FUCKING AGE, the symbol means mass murder. I am very sorry that Adolph Hitler besmirched your precious symbol. But he did. Move on. Deal with it. Quit putting it in your sigs and pretending that it has something to do wioth history.

"intellectuals"

and

"with"

TsukiRyoko
03-15-2007, 10:29 PM
Guys, let's look at this from a different angle. If Tourdy can launch weekly attacks on the Confederate flag, why not let Robert launch attacks on the broken cross?
Tourdy's a chronic master baiter, though. I think that comes with certain privileges.

William Haskins
03-15-2007, 10:29 PM
Context is everything. <3

that pink triangle is making me hot...

veinglory
03-15-2007, 10:29 PM
Ah the intellectuals, always first up against the wall when the revolution comes.

Melina
03-15-2007, 10:30 PM
A swastika is a swastika is a swastika. You INTELLECTAULS can debate the fucking history of the thing until hell bubbles up and kisses your ass. The bottom line is that NOW, in THIS DAY AND MOTHER FUCKING AGE, the symbol means mass murder. I am very sorry that Adolph Hitler besmirched your precious symbol. But he did. Move on. Deal with it. Quit putting it in your sigs and pretending that it has something to do wioth history.

Can't stand to be proven wrong, huh?

veinglory
03-15-2007, 10:30 PM
It's a bald merkin, ya know. Oops, guess I need to go back to my subforum now...

Meerkat
03-15-2007, 10:32 PM
Endgame

...


and couldn’t murder
fast enough.

I take back what I said earlier today on "name your favorite Haskins poem." This one is my new favorite.

Rolling Thunder
03-15-2007, 10:33 PM
A swastika is a swastika is a swastika. You INTELLECTAULS can debate the fucking history of the thing until hell bubbles up and kisses your ass. The bottom line is that NOW, in THIS DAY AND MOTHER FUCKING AGE, the symbol means mass murder. I am very sorry that Adolph Hitler besmirched your precious symbol. But he did. Move on. Deal with it. Quit putting it in your sigs and pretending that it has something to do wioth history.

I am far from being an intellectual. Barely made it through High School, as it were.

But, I know the difference between the meaning of a Nazi symbol and an ancient religious symbol. Just like I know flying the American flag upside down means something different that flying it right side up.

I just think you're reading too much emotion into this discussion.

Rolling Thunder
03-15-2007, 10:34 PM
Ah the intellectuals, always first up against the wall when the revolution comes.

Does this mean I'll be in charge when the revolution comes? :D

dclary
03-15-2007, 10:35 PM
Tourdy's a chronic master baiter, though. I think that comes with certain privileges.

Come again?

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:35 PM
"intellectuals"

and

"with"
Yes ... I know. You type at 1000 words a minute for awhile. Beech.

NeuroFizz
03-15-2007, 10:36 PM
Well frankly, yes it does. That's like saying an it doesn't matter if an arrow points left or right - even if it sends a people in the wrong direction.

Many symbols are similar, inverted or with minor alterations.

Heck - a "u" is just an upside down "n" - but they are not the same thing. The only difference is the direction they face - but that's enough to embue them with an entirely different meaning, sound and purpose.
..so it isn't a northern/southern hemisphere thing?

TsukiRyoko
03-15-2007, 10:36 PM
Dang. I was just trying to protect the stars and bars. :p
Regardless of your patriotism, I'd still appreciate it if you got your hand off my butt. I don't HOW many times I've had to tell you, Clary.... :D

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:36 PM
Can't stand to be proven wrong, huh?
At what point was I proven wrong?

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 10:38 PM
Raise your hand if you're offended by the Hindi/Buddhist symbol of peace?

TsukiRyoko
03-15-2007, 10:39 PM
Come again?
Once is enough thanks. :D

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:41 PM
Aiight ... you guys want to turn it into another ass grab thread and that's cool. Let me just make sure you know what the fuck I was trying to say.

1. The swastika offends some people, I don't give a fuck where it comes from or what you think it means.

2. It is becoming pretty obvious that this board is against offending SOME people but not others.

3. This isn't even my fucking thread.

4. I think that it is in poor taste for the owner of the board to even take a position on this issue ... which was the original point of the whole g.d. thing back before it became a history lesson/poetry reading.

5. I still like most of you. Not all of you. Never that.

6. :)

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 10:41 PM
At what point was I proven wrong?

A swastika is a swastika.



You're been proven a thousand times wrong already. Then you object because "we didn't get your angle." We get it, all right. No one is diminishing the horror of the Nazis and Hitler, but let's call a spade a spade. It is a different symbol, plain and simple. And context is everything.

BTW, the swastika was featured in The Sound of Music. Should we burn that film now?

NeuroFizz
03-15-2007, 10:42 PM
Once is enough thanks. :D
Greenhorn.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 10:43 PM
Yep, well let people be offended based on their own misunderstandings. I do it, we all do it--then we see out mistake and move on.

robeiae
03-15-2007, 10:45 PM
D, the difference is Tourdy is attacking THE flag, but Robert is attack the wrong symbol.
I don't know. In both cases, the attack is being made on a symbol because of perception, i.e. the meaning(s) that the symbol is supposed to carry with it. I don't really see a difference, from this standpoint.

Of course, when someone defends the use of the flag by invoking these perceived meanings, it seems to kind of justify the attack.

That said, I think it is patently obvious that the context of the symbol in Mac's signature advocates nothing even approaching Nazism, so I would say that it would be silly to find it offensive because the Nazis used a similar one. The crusaders used a cross, and so did the KKK (and for more closely linked reasons to the traditional meaning of the cross than what is happening here), but that doesn't mean every cross should be removed because of this history...at least I don't think it does.

That said, there is a kind of poking/prodding going on here, imo. And that ties in pretty nicely with my "Serious Thread" on the Current Events forum...

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 10:46 PM
Shameless plug, Rob. Shameless. :)

TsukiRyoko
03-15-2007, 10:47 PM
And people wonder why I'm so corrupted.... I mean, sure, I started out tainted, but you guys are causing it to perpetuate into full-fledged perversion.... Why, given another month or so, I might even turn out to be a writer!

Birol
03-15-2007, 10:48 PM
I think everyone needs to watch their language.

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:49 PM
A swastika is a swastika.



You're been proven a thousand times wrong already. Then you cry because "we didn't get your angle." We get it, all right. No one is diminishing the horror of the Nazis and Hitler, but let's call a spade a spade. It is a different symbol, plain and simple. And context is everything.

BTW, the swastika was featured in The Sound of Music. Should we burn that film now?
Dude there aren't a 1000 posts in this thread. Ease up. I haven't been proved anything because you people will NOT address what I am talking about. Get over yourself. It LOOKS liek a freakin swastika. Some people are offended. THEN WHAT? Screw the offended people? Answer that question pretty boy.

eta: Birol pissed about the language

robeiae
03-15-2007, 10:49 PM
Shameless plug, Rob. Shameless. :)I learned from you, my master. :D

Medievalist
03-15-2007, 10:50 PM
there's a vein jumping from your forehead, isn't there?

I don't think that's a vein . . .

Melina
03-15-2007, 10:51 PM
Dude there aren't a 1000 posts in this thread. Ease up. I haven't been proved anything because you people will NOT address what I am talking about. Get over yourself. It LOOKS liek a fucking swastika. Some people are offended. THEN WHAT? Fuck the offended people? Answer that question pretty boy.


No, skelly--once we have proven that the outrage is the product of a mistake, we expect the offended people to quit being offended and move on. Simple enough, no?

robeiae
03-15-2007, 10:51 PM
I think everyone needs to watch their language.
It was my "advocates," wasn't it?

Calls for?
Suggests?

aka eraser
03-15-2007, 10:51 PM
It just shows to go ya' - you can lead a poster to the truth but you can't make 'em think.

Birol
03-15-2007, 10:52 PM
Skelly, in TIO respect is expected the same as everywhere else. I've given you a lot of leeway regarding your language in this thread already. Don't push it.

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:54 PM
No, skelly--once we have proven that the outrage is the product of a mistake, we expect the offended people to quit being offended and move on. Simple enough, no?
No ma'am. That has not been proved. No one has proved anything. Instead, the weight of popular opinion drives the conversation. As yet no one has answered my most basic question. This is a farce. It has nothing to do with the reason the OP started this thread.

TsukiRyoko
03-15-2007, 10:55 PM
It was my "advocates," wasn't it?

Calls for?
Suggests? To be completely honest, I found your "the" to be pretty profane....
:D

*flees before Lori catches up*

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:56 PM
Skelly, in TIO respect is expected the same as everywhere else. I've given you a lot of leeway regarding your language in this thread already. Don't push it.
When I see one of those at the bottom of my favorite poet's threads ... I will respect it. Until then. Yeah.

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 10:56 PM
OK, I will answer your question.


Dude there aren't a 1000 posts in this thread.

It's called a rhetorical exaggeration: "I've died a thousand times; It's been here forever; there are a million people here and I can't breathe."



I haven't been proved anything because you people will NOT address what I am talking about.


Actually, people have addressed what you were talking about, and have tried to make you see from a different perspective. We have used facts. And you still dispute the facts based on feelings.



It LOOKS liek a fucking swastika.


Yes it does. No one is saying it doesn't. But it is NOT the same symbol. So who should get over themselves now?


Some people are offended.

Noted.



THEN WHAT? Screw the offended people?

No. We're just saying, there's no need to feel that way. We're sorry if you're offended, but given the fact that it's not the same symbol, and given the fact that it's not the same context, we can't say the person who is using the symbol is wrong. So what does that leave us?

I mean what do you really want? Have a board-wide ban on religious symbols? Or any symbols since they MAY offend someone?

And yes, Birol is right, there is no need to use profanity.

Birol
03-15-2007, 10:56 PM
No ma'am. That has not been proved. No one has proved anything. Instead, the weight of popular opinion drives the conversation. As yet no one has answered my most basic question. This is a farce. It has nothing to do with the reason the OP started this thread.

Aren't you arguing that popular perception (opinion) determines the meaning of the Buddhist peace symbol as something other than a Buddhist peace symbol? Isn't that hypocritical of you?

skelly
03-15-2007, 10:58 PM
Aren't you arguing that popular perception (opinion) determines the meaning of the Buddhist peace symbol as something other than a Buddhist peace symbol?
Are you comparing this thread to the Holocaust?

robeiae
03-15-2007, 10:58 PM
As yet no one has answered my most basic question.
If your question is "Why is someone allowed to put a symbol that can offend people in their signature?" then I think it has been answered:

The symbol you find as potentially offensive is not the one being used, as should be clear by the context of that use.

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:00 PM
OK, I will answer your question.



It's called a rhetorical exaggeration: "I've died a thousand times; It's been here forever; there are a million people here and I can't breathe."




Actually, people have addressed what you were talking about, and have tried to make you see from a different perspective. We have used facts. And you still dispute the facts based on feelings.




Yes it does. No one is saying it doesn't. But it is NOT the same symbol. So who should get over themselves now?



Noted.




No. We're just saying, there's no need to feel that way. We're sorry if you're offended, but given the fact that it's not the same symbol, and given the fact that it's not the same context, we can't say the person who is using the symbol is wrong.

I mean what do you really want? Have a board-wide ban on religious symbols? Or any symbols since they MAY offend someone?

And yes, Birol is right, there is no need to use profanity.
You nailed it brother. Right there.

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 11:01 PM
And, I believe, Veinglory has addressed that opinion.

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:02 PM
If your question is "Why is someone allowed to put a symbol that can offend people in their signature?" then I think it has been answered:

The symbol you find as potentially offensive is not the one being used, as should be clear by the context of that use.
Rob the intent of the sigs that use this symbol is suspect. All I'm sayin. And I do not think that a writer's message board is where this battle needs be fought. It pisses me off.

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:03 PM
And, I believe, Veinglory has addressed that opinion.
Wrongly. Yes.

Birol
03-15-2007, 11:03 PM
Are you comparing this thread to the Holocaust?

No. And that's a poor attempt to twist my words. You've stated, either through implication or other means that the symbol being discussed should not be allowed because popular opinion, in your view, finds it offensive, therefore it is, in your view, offensive. However, when a majority of individuals in this community show that their opinions are different than that, you state that popular opinion proves nothing. There's an inherent contradiction in your logic.

davids
03-15-2007, 11:03 PM
You will all be pleased to know that this thread has been entered in the Erma Bombeck Writing Competition 2007

Birol
03-15-2007, 11:04 PM
Rob the intent of the sigs that use this symbol is suspect. All I'm sayin. And I do not think that a writer's message board is where this battle needs be fought. It pisses me off.

Then why are you fighting it here. I suspect, strongly, that the issue for you is not any symbol, but the board owner. Perhaps she symbolizes something for you?

veinglory
03-15-2007, 11:05 PM
I am used to being wrong. All the best people are wrong these days. Martini, anyone?

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 11:05 PM
Wrongly. Yes.

That's your own opinion, and it does seem like it's yours only. If you can't prove Veinglory wrong with FACTS (and not interpretation and feelings), then it only remains your opinion.

Birol
03-15-2007, 11:05 PM
Wrongly. Yes.

Ah, because you did not agree with what was said, then it is incorrect?

Rolling Thunder
03-15-2007, 11:06 PM
As long as we're on the subject of being offended:

Ray? If I were Jewish your tasty looking other white meat avatar would offend me. :D

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:06 PM
That's your own opinion, and it does seem like it's yours only. If you can't prove Veinglory wrong with FACTS (and not interpretation and feelings), then it only remains your opinion.
Sir it's a feelings issue. It began as that. Please.

Birol
03-15-2007, 11:07 PM
I am used to being wrong. All the best people are wrong these days. Martini, anyone?

Are there any margaritas?

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:07 PM
Ah, because you did not agree with what was said, then it is incorrect?
No Birol. Because he was incorrect, he was incorrect.

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 11:08 PM
Rob the intent of the sigs that use this symbol is suspect. All I'm sayin.

I hear what you're saying, but you haven't shown us why you think the intent is suspect. And knowing that Bart is a Buddhist, I suspect that his intent was dignified. Now, try to prove your case if you will.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 11:08 PM
I think the difference in assumption between those who hold that feelings are always right and justified--and those who suggest they can be wrong and in need of adjustment. I never saw any ill intent in the symbol usage.

Medievalist
03-15-2007, 11:08 PM
It LOOKS liek a freakin swastika. Some people are offended. THEN WHAT? Screw the offended people? Answer that question pretty boy.

Umm . . . "pretty boy?" You wanna look at that? And think about it, and what you're doing with that language?

It doesn't look like a Nazi Swastika. It really doesn't.

Look: I double checked, you know. I asked the rabbi who officiated at my marriage, I asked the calligrapher who prepared my ketubah, I asked my Jewish relatives by marriage, and my own Jewish kin. I asked my Hebrew teacher. I asked Holocaust survivors. Not one sees the Buddhist symbol, or the original sig, as offensive or at all as a Nazi Swastika.

The Jewish Anti-Defamation league has no problem with the Buddhist or Hindu or Hopi symbols. I'm going to trust them, far more, than a blog-whore desperate for Web traffic who can't even get his facts straight and who very very clearly has several private agendas.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 11:09 PM
Are there any margaritas?

Strawberry okay?

Foinah
03-15-2007, 11:10 PM
I think everyone needs to watch their language.

To see where it goes and follow it through the hole in the fence?

This thread, and its spawn, amused me to no end. To use a quaint American term, Skelly is a SPAZZZZ. He's like Cliff Claven on meth.

My computer monitor actually shook while I read his tirade...His cyber foot-stomping was epic. I love it when pseudo intellectuals get all self-righteous and pissy. You go, Skelly. Rant and froth away!!!

Oh, but can you hold off for a few minutes? I need to get another cup of tea and finish painting all of the religious (and non-religious) symbols on the outside of my house.
Cheers-

For everyone else: Thanks for being a resource for the enlightened. It's refreshing to find people who know their history, politics, various intricacies of religion without referring to some sort of manifesto before they speak. Knee-jerk arguments are so pase and I applaud the patience you all have exhibited with, well....the spazz ;)

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:11 PM
I'm not even sure now why this was so important to me. All kidding aside, I haven't been swilling beer and fighting with you people. I really believe it is wrong to allow some people to express themselves at the expense of others, whichever side you fall on. Seems like we could just clip it and get back to talking about writing. Anyway, the person that started this thread suck butt.

Birol
03-15-2007, 11:12 PM
No Birol. Because he was incorrect, he was incorrect.

How so? Please explain. Use logic and facts. As you've stated, as others have stated, emotions cannot be proved or disproved and therefore are not correct or incorrect.

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 11:12 PM
Look: I double checked, you know. I asked the rabbi who officiated at my marriage, I asked the calligrapher who prepared my ketubah, I asked my Jewish relatives by marriage, and my own Jewish kin. I asked my Hebrew teacher. I asked Holocaust survivors. Not one sees the Buddhist symbol, or the original sig, as offensive or at all as a Nazi Swastika.

The Jewish Anti-Defamation league has no problem with the Buddhist or Hindu or Hopi symbols. I'm going to trust them, far more, than a blog-whore desperate for Web traffic who can't even get his facts straight and who very very clearly has several private agendas.

I think you're wasting your testimony. It's a feeling issue, so no logic is required.

;)

robeiae
03-15-2007, 11:14 PM
Rob the intent of the sigs that use this symbol is suspect. All I'm sayin. And I do not think that a writer's message board is where this battle needs be fought. It pisses me off.
You'll note that I, in fact, agreed with the idea that there is some poking going on, here.

But the "rightness" or "wrongness" of that poking is really not my call to make. Moreover, I am not privy to the thoughts and feelings of those who feel they should be able to freely use the symbol as an expression devoid of Nazi connotations, so I would argue that I cannot fairly condemn this poking, as I have no real stake in the issue.

And most kinds of protests, for causes noble or not, have involved similar methodologies, to one extent or another. Peace and tranquility is a great thing, but sometimes it is Just to stir the pot, imo. And writers/artists are fully within their rights to do so, as History demonstrates quite unequivocally. I'm not prepared to judge, here. So I won't (though I hardly think the extent in this case is worthy of the fuss). And I don't think you are prepared, either. But that's my opinion, of course.

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:14 PM
Umm . . . "pretty boy?" You wanna look at that? And think about it, and what you're doing with that language?

It doesn't look like a Nazi Swastika. It really doesn't.

Look: I double checked, you know. I asked the rabbi who officiated at my marriage, I asked the calligrapher who prepared my ketubah, I asked my Jewish relatives by marriage, and my own Jewish kin. I asked my Hebrew teacher. I asked Holocaust survivors. Not one sees the Buddhist symbol, or the original sig, as offensive or at all as a Nazi Swastika.

The Jewish Anti-Defamation league has no problem with the Buddhist or Hindu or Hopi symbols. I'm going to trust them, far more, than a blog-whore desperate for Web traffic who can't even get his facts straight and who very very clearly has several private agendas.
Med, if what you say is true .... why are we discussing this right now? Clearly it is an ISSUE. Okay? And I do not understand the blog whore comment. Am I the only person here who puts his blog in his sig? I can remove it.

Birol
03-15-2007, 11:14 PM
I really believe it is wrong to allow some people to express themselves at the expense of others, whichever side you fall on.

So, rather than allow freedom of oppression for everyone, you'd be more comfortable with everyone being equally oppressed?

Dawno
03-15-2007, 11:15 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/Ebil_Librarian/poptartkitten.jpg

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:16 PM
You'll note that I, in fact, agreed with the idea that there is some poking going on, here.
Yeah you did. I failed to acknowledge that. Point taken.

dclary
03-15-2007, 11:16 PM
http://www.bratsandbeer.com/images/kitten_toilet.png

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 11:18 PM
I guess it's that time again.

http://www.kitten-pictures.com/images/Kitten-Pictures-68.jpg

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:18 PM
So, rather than allow freedom of oppression for everyone, you'd be more comfortable with everyone being equally oppressed?
It is a writer's message board .... a freakin WRITER'S MESSAGE board. Come on. Damn. Can't we go teach people about the true meaning of a swastika somewhere else?

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 11:19 PM
BTW, anyone can call me pretty boy anytime. I'm not offended. No. :D

Birol
03-15-2007, 11:19 PM
Sorry, Skelly. The kittens have spoken. ;)

William Haskins
03-15-2007, 11:21 PM
these photos of cats are highly offensive. do you know how many people have been attacked by cats (not to mention those who espouse pro-cat philosophies)?

Medievalist
03-15-2007, 11:24 PM
Strawberry okay?

Abominator! Fresh lime, quality tequilla, Grand Mariner, on the rocks, rock salt on the rim.

:D

I've never umm, actually tried any of the other varieties . . . .

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:24 PM
Sorry, Skelly. The kittens have spoken. ;)
I do respect the power of the kittens. :)

NeuroFizz
03-15-2007, 11:24 PM
these photos of cats are highly offensive. do you know how many people have been attacked by cats (not to mention those who espouse pro-cat philosophies)?
Pussy.

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 11:24 PM
I'm offended!

roach
03-15-2007, 11:25 PM
It seems to me that to object to a symbol (Hindu peace symbol) that sort of looks like but definitely isn't an offensive symbol (Nazi swastika) only serves as a distraction and to dilute the fight against the offending symbol (N.s.). By the time one encounters a real-live use of the offending symbol (N.s.) one has used up all one's righteous indignation, verve and energy on the non-offensive symbol (H.p.s.).

Also, we already had a discussion on where the responsibility sits (with the offender or the offended) here (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56776).

Also, I don't think that being the owner/operator of this board means Mac must refrain from expressing opinions or taking sides on a subject. Especially on the topic of symbols and their use and meanings on a board for writers.

And lastly, instituting a policy of censorship to spare the feelings of members is ... well offensive. It implies that the members aren't capable of thinking on their own, or resolving their differences among themselves but must be mollycoddled. The solution to problems of expression and perception is never censorship but discourse and education.

That is all.


ETA: Here I go making a serious post right after the posting of kittens! I never get my timing right.

Also, haggis.

William Haskins
03-15-2007, 11:26 PM
NORTH PLATTE, Neb. (AP) - Two stray cats (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22stray+cats%22&sid=breitbart.com) got into a house and attacked three people inside, then were euthanized and checked for rabies, authorities said.


The cats entered Melissa Breva's house through an open front door on Monday, and attacked two women visitors and a boy, authorities said.
"I thought I had seen it all, but I have never seen anything like this," Chief of Police Martin Gutschenritter said.

Animal control officer John Pettit responded to a call for help (http://search.breitbart.com/q?s=%22call+for+help%22&sid=breitbart.com), Gutschenritter said.

One woman was scratched and bitten on her legs; the other woman was bitten on her right calf, authorities said.

After talking to them, Pettit went to his truck for snares, then heard screaming from inside the house.
"When he ran back, he saw a young male with blood over his face," Gutschenritter said. "He was bitten on his forehead, nose, left ear and right cheek."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8NSMV9G0&show_article=1

skelly
03-15-2007, 11:26 PM
BTW, anyone can call me pretty boy anytime. I'm not offended. No. :D
I do think you are pretty. I watched you singing 1.5 times. I still remember the way you looked at me in that mirror. (You were looking at me, right?)

robeiae
03-15-2007, 11:27 PM
It is a writer's message board .... a freakin WRITER'S MESSAGE board. Come on. Damn.
That's right. And some people here want to write about very serious things. Read the quotes in my sig. They might seem playful, but they are not intended to be such, I assure you.

There is nothing wrong, imo, with using your sig to make a serious point that you feel strongly about. If not here, than where? It doesn't have to contain a joke and a link...

veinglory
03-15-2007, 11:28 PM
Speaking of Hindu kittens (http://aardvarkofdoom.blogspot.com/2006/05/cheerful-thought-for-exam-time.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/veinglory/death.jpg

robeiae
03-15-2007, 11:28 PM
As for the rest of you and your heinous felines, you've gone too far.

veinglory
03-15-2007, 11:31 PM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/eurotransient/kitten20with20a20gun.jpg

...never trust a kitten

Cassiopeia
03-15-2007, 11:32 PM
Mac,

Playing follow-the-leader and adopting the swastika on your signature line, irrespective of the myriad of explanations, is a blatant attempt to annoy certain people who you dislike. It is your forum and you can do with it as you wish, but you are degrading the good name of AW in your quest for revenge.

Don’t even attempt to say this has anything to do with freedom of speech; you have too many posts that prove otherwise. And to all the sheep that will just silent follow along, I pity you all.

Hurry, delete this post and ban me before anyone sees this!That is really not called for hun. Hey Robert...long time no see :) I was just wondering....is it fair to ask someone who uses the Hindu symbol as a religious icon demonstrating their belief in Hinduims; to cease using it just because Hitler came to use it after the religion did? What about the Christian Crusades? Should we shun anyone displaying their faith in the Christian religion because of the unjust slaughtering of those who would not convert? Killing in the name of religion is still wrong so would you condone banning the symbol of the cross. And what about the star of David. For some muslims it is a sign of the their enemy. Should we ask that noone bear that beautiful religious symbol either. And what about the pentacle? Before Satanists inverted and used it was a symbol used by the early Christian church? It is not only impossible to control the actions of everyone at every moment in time, it is not just to expect those who mean no harm to change because someone abused their religious icon and twisted its meaning.

Now if someone were to use that symbol to represent their affiliation with the Hitler movement then yes I would find that offensive because of what he did and represented. But to ask someone to stop demonstrating their faith in the religion by no long displaying their religious icon is grossly unfair.

I do believe that we should moderate anyone's post containing any religious slur of any sort for any one. But we MUST take care that we do not project our own wounds onto an unsuspecting, innocent person. Because some of our experiences in religious bias strike at our very heart we must be careful not to see attacks when there are none. Now I am not saying that there has not been any of that here. I will say however, that I AM a member of this forum and I don't like how the ENTIRE forum is being accused of anti-semitism. I think you know me better than that.

I wish you peace and miss you in my interactions here on the board. I really do. You were one of the first to make me feel so welcome.

Cav Guy
03-15-2007, 11:32 PM
I'm offended!

I'm offended that you're offended. How offensive!;)

Melina
03-15-2007, 11:34 PM
Are there any margaritas?


Martini, anyone?

May I have one of each, please?

I don't have a kitten...:cry:

Dawno
03-15-2007, 11:35 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/Ebil_Librarian/catapproves.jpg

maestrowork
03-15-2007, 11:36 PM
Here, Melina:

http://www.animal-world.com/encyclo/featured_pets/Dog_Cat/madcat/kitten.jpg

Cassiopeia
03-15-2007, 11:37 PM
Where do you guys get these pictures? They are adorable :D

veinglory
03-15-2007, 11:38 PM
kittens for everyone

http://www.wayodd.com/funny-pictures2/funny-pictures-tasty-kittens-qES.jpg

Cath
03-15-2007, 11:39 PM
Since we're bringing in the cats...

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/veniceclay_1937_1430123 (http://www.veniceclay.com/buddhacat.html)

Rolling Thunder
03-15-2007, 11:43 PM
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/Rllgthunder/ummmmm.jpg

veinglory
03-15-2007, 11:47 PM
That's just... wrong

veinglory
03-15-2007, 11:53 PM
http://bokertov.typepad.com/btb/images/idf_w_kitten.jpg

Rolling Thunder
03-15-2007, 11:54 PM
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/Rllgthunder/inthefridge.jpg

roach
03-16-2007, 12:06 AM
http://www.idiorhythmic.net/inyournovel.jpg

robeiae
03-16-2007, 12:07 AM
You'll all pay dearly for this continued outrage.


I mean it.

Rolling Thunder
03-16-2007, 12:07 AM
*gasp*

A copy cat! Everybody slam your WIPs shut!

veinglory
03-16-2007, 12:07 AM
Um. The evil kitties are scaring me.

[whimper]

Rolling Thunder
03-16-2007, 12:10 AM
How about some teddy bears then.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/Rllgthunder/BondageBears.jpg

Birol
03-16-2007, 12:11 AM
The kittens are making me laugh. I'm glad I'm home alone and the windows are closed.

:ROFL:

robeiae
03-16-2007, 12:12 AM
Bandwidth, people! You are gonna make Dawnette blow a gasket.

(That sounds vaguely erotic)

Dawno
03-16-2007, 12:15 AM
I would like to clarify for the those of you that don't know this:

Dawnette: the AW server
Dawno: an AW moderator

Do servers have gaskets?

Rolling Thunder
03-16-2007, 12:16 AM
Only in strip clubs.

maestrowork
03-16-2007, 12:17 AM
This sure will offend Rob:

http://amcop.blogspot.com/Sniper%20kitten.jpg

Cav Guy
03-16-2007, 12:17 AM
How about some teddy bears then.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/Rllgthunder/BondageBears.jpg
Did you get that from Tsuki's collection?

Dawno
03-16-2007, 12:18 AM
Teddy Bears in Bondage are Right Off Topic. Back to homicidal kittens please.

Birol
03-16-2007, 12:22 AM
My kitten contribution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNv74rvkAw8&mode=related&search=#). (Non-homicidal.)

Rolling Thunder
03-16-2007, 12:23 AM
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u270/Rllgthunder/bowl-of-kittens.jpg

Melina
03-16-2007, 12:27 AM
Here, Melina:

http://www.animal-world.com/encyclo/featured_pets/Dog_Cat/madcat/kitten.jpg

Thanks, Ray. Can I still have the cocktails, though?

maestrowork
03-16-2007, 12:34 AM
Cocktail and kitties don't mix, Melina. That's how this (http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/1535/catpeople14ay.jpg) happened.

rtilryarms
03-16-2007, 12:40 AM
Have you given equal weight to both sides? I can see that you are fully on Bart's side, but what about the offended party? Have you thoroughly vetted that?

eta: see, you can never convince me. This is a board where I had my freedom of speech abridged (and a two star thread locked) because I dared to use the tern "Islamofascist." You people aren't all about freedom of anything. Somebody has an anti-semitic agenda ... and it is showing.


Could you refrain from using the racist "You people" generalism please? It cost Ross Perot a presidency. That's how bad that is.

Melina
03-16-2007, 12:40 AM
Cocktail and kitties don't mix, Melina. That's how this (http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/1535/catpeople14ay.jpg) happened.


:roll:

rtilryarms
03-16-2007, 12:42 AM
The swastika will be forever associated with fascist murders.


Obviously not by everybody. Deal with it.

Melina
03-16-2007, 12:45 AM
Is it safe to say we can blame Dawno for turning this into a cat fight?

Dawno
03-16-2007, 12:50 AM
Yes

Elincoln
03-16-2007, 12:53 AM
Do servers have gaskets?

Technically, they burn their boards.

Akuma
03-16-2007, 12:56 AM
http://macrochan.org/source/J/W/JWOF76QZABDLTC4YRLA4X6SZ44HBIWYE.jpg

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 12:59 AM
I would like to clarify for the those of you that don't know this:

Dawnette: the AW server
Dawno: an AW moderator

Do servers have gaskets?

No. They do have buffers and caches, but Dawnette's are sweet.

Dawno
03-16-2007, 01:00 AM
Medievalist, how many times must we beg you not to go and taste the hardware?? ;)

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 01:02 AM
Medievalist, how many times must we beg you not to go and taste the hardware?? ;)

You have no idea how many bawdy geek puns I'm resisting . . . get thee behind me, Dawno!

Dawno
03-16-2007, 01:17 AM
:e2teeth:

Troo
03-16-2007, 01:54 AM
Actually a writer's board is a spot-on place to have this kind of conversation. It's our job, as writers, to explore humanity, and that often leads us to areas of thought and reasoning that the majority of humanity finds offensive, disturbing, or otherwise "wrong". How else can we explore the human condition? How else can we write about what we percieve?

To the subject of whether Mac, as board owner, should be taking up this fight: It's her opinion, nothing more, and she has the freedom to express her opinion as much as anyone else here.

I acknowledge that the symbol may offend some people. And yes, I do say "suck it up" to that, because everyone here either is or wants to be a writer, and if they're offended by a symbol, writing isn't the career for them.

writerterri
03-16-2007, 02:02 AM
I was wondering where everybody went, now I know.


As usual, I got nothing.


carry on....

writerterri
03-16-2007, 02:03 AM
Actually a writer's board is a spot-on place to have this kind of conversation. It's our job, as writers, to explore humanity, and that often leads us to areas of thought and reasoning that the majority of humanity finds offensive, disturbing, or otherwise "wrong". How else can we explore the human condition? How else can we write about what we percieve?

To the subject of whether Mac, as board owner, should be taking up this fight: It's her opinion, nothing more, and she has the freedom to express her opinion as much as anyone else here.

I acknowledge that the symbol may offend some people. And yes, I do say "suck it up" to that, because everyone here either is or wants to be a writer, and if they're offended by a symbol, writing isn't the career for them.

Nooo, this was just starting to get funny.

okay, i'm going.

scarletpeaches
03-16-2007, 02:07 AM
You nailed it brother. Right there.

The day AW bans religious symbols and religious discussion is the day I quit.

MacAllister
03-16-2007, 02:27 AM
It was absolutely not my intention, Robert, to have this moved to a forum where you couldn't participate.

This is a discussion key, I think, to language and the theory of language.

My point is that if someone is mistaken, either through ignorance or malice, about a word or symbol--why on earth would the rest of the world be bound by that mistake? That's simply perverse.

The thing to do is educate where you can--correct the mistaken impression, and offer true information--and move along.

SpookyWriter
03-16-2007, 02:42 AM
This is a discussion key, I think, to language and the theory of language.

My point is that if someone is mistaken, either through ignorance or malice, about a word or symbol--why on earth would the rest of the world be bound by that mistake? That's simply perverse.
I'm coming into this late because of well, I have to work. But my initial impressions of the symbols I've seen on several signatures confused me at first. In a passing glance, I mistook the Buddhist symbol as a Nazi symbol.

The visual part of the message was what caught my attention first. But, I knew Bart and Mac weren't or aren't Nazis so I took a few minutes to try and better understand the message.

Okay, I still don't understand the reasoning behind using the symbols in the sig lines but that's just me. I just want to say that language is more than the oral communications and is also visual. So I can think that someone might get offended by the Buddhist symbol if they were highly prone to visual stimuli.

Just my two kopec on the topic. Carry on folks...

ColoradoGuy
03-16-2007, 03:32 AM
Welcome all. Feel free to poke around the other threads in this forum, too. I very much agree with Mac that discussions of this sort, about the use of symbolic language, belong on a writer's board.

Robert Toy
03-16-2007, 03:38 AM
It was absolutely not my intention, Robert, to have this moved to a forum where you couldn't participate.

This is a discussion key, I think, to language and the theory of language.

My point is that if someone is mistaken, either through ignorance or malice, about a word or symbol--why on earth would the rest of the world be bound by that mistake? That's simply perverse.

The thing to do is educate where you can--correct the mistaken impression, and offer true information--and move along.
Mac,

Thank you for moving it back where I can respond. I would like to state that my discussion is neither borne from ignorance or malice, but what appears to be a growing fad to add the swastika/Hindu/Buddhist symbol in a number of member signature lines. I have to assume, possibly in error, that you are not a Buddhist nor Hindu, if that is the case what purpose does it serve to add the symbol to your signature line knowing that it has already upset some people? Is it to show solidarity to the two who have proclaimed that faith? What about the other faiths and beliefs that the AW community has, are they not worthy of the same recognition?

You have some posting, which are quite disturbing, text wise, praising Hitler and yet you let them remain. How is one to interpret this new found freedom?

Symbols are designed to be a reminder, be it a trademark on a Mercedes or a Swastika. Twisted, turned, inverted, mirror image it invokes the same horror in a great number of people. It is the first impression that sucks your breath away, having to hunting for links or elaborate intellectual explanations do not undo the shock.

I have said it before and I will repeat it again, that symbol, stolen by the Nazis is stained with the blood of millions upon millions of humans beings, not just Jews, or Gays, or Gypsies, etc., but the blood of the tens of thousands of soldiers who fought to destroy that evil. The symbol in the western world has been tainted forever and no amount of intellectual discussion can cleanse it.

On a much, much smaller scale there was a discussion on the Confederate flag, it was surprising how many people were outraged that the Confederate flag was still flying as it was interpreted as a symbol of racial injustice, when in fact the primary issue was States Rights.

Am I crazy or are the priorities mixed up here? Can I claim I am Muslim and display the great work that the martyrs did by showing pictures of the twin towers falling? There must be limits set and that is called common sense, when you know someone is offended to keep doing it is spiteful.

Off the soap box!

Dawno
03-16-2007, 03:40 AM
You have some posting, which are quite disturbing, text wise, praising Hitler and yet you let them remain. How is one to interpret this new found freedom?


Who is praising Hitler on AW? I want to see links. If it's happening off AW, then you need to be very explicit in your post about that. I think you're using some shoddy tactics to besmirch this board and the hard work the volunteer mods do to keep this a place where we can have useful discussions about writing and communication of ideas.

SpookyWriter
03-16-2007, 03:40 AM
Welcome back, Robert. Missed ya!

scarletpeaches
03-16-2007, 03:44 AM
Oh for goodness sake.

DISPLAYING A SWASTIKA DOES NOT EQUAL SUPPORTING HITLER'S IDEALS.

The swastika is NOT NOT NOT a Nazi symbol. It was stolen by them from certain religious groups. It was originally spiritual, not Nazi.

There is a difference and for instance, Hindus should not be forced into abandoning something they have owned, used, displayed because of a bunch of murderous knob-jockeys who raped other people's spirituality.

PLEASE let this be an end to it.

Birol
03-16-2007, 03:54 AM
It was absolutely not my intention, Robert, to have this moved to a forum where you couldn't participate.

I failed to consider C&E when I split and moved the posts to this thread. I'd forgotten that, as of today, it was no longer a sub-forum of TIO and was now out in the open.

My apologies to both Mac and Robert.

Discussion is, indeed, key.

Bravo
03-16-2007, 04:00 AM
Discussion is, indeed, key.

yes.

for the record, and i told mac this privately, but i personally feel that displaying the swastika is at the very least, disrespectful.

with that said, my main issue is simply that this shouldve been discussed here first, but teddy is a bastard who decided to equate AW with hate on his blog, and he's a bastard for irrationally twisting my words from the confederate thread, and he's a sanctimonious, underhanded, passive aggresive POS for not coming into this thread himself.

come out come out wherever you are teddy.

Rolling Thunder
03-16-2007, 04:00 AM
Next thing you know, people are going to look at my screen name and accuse me of being a storm trooper.

I hear the whispers coming from the secret Mod room......I know I do. :cry:

SpookyWriter
03-16-2007, 04:01 AM
Someone is spoilling for a fight. :popcorn:

Robert Toy
03-16-2007, 04:02 AM
Who is praising Hitler on AW? I want to see links. If it's happening off AW, then you need to be very explicit in your post about that. I think you're using some shoddy tactics to besmirch this board and the hard work the volunteer mods do to keep this a place where we can have useful discussions about writing and communication of ideas.
Try these:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31)

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31)

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31)

ColoradoGuy
03-16-2007, 04:02 AM
On a much, much smaller scale there was a discussion on the Confederate flag, it was surprising how many people were outraged that the Confederate flag was still flying as it was interpreted as a symbol of racial injustice, when in fact the primary issue was States Rights.
I don't think that's quite the case. The vitriol flew over the entity the flag represented, not the symbol itself. No one cared about St. Andrew's cross rendered in red, white, and blue. In my opinion, some posters were plainly wrong about what the Confederacy actually was; they denied slavery was fundamental to its existence. It would be as if posters in this hoohah were confused about what the Third Reich actually was.

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 04:13 AM
Who is praising Hitler on AW? I want to see links. If it's happening off AW, then you need to be very explicit in your post about that. I think you're using some shoddy tactics to besmirch this board and the hard work the volunteer mods do to keep this a place where we can have useful discussions about writing and communication of ideas.[/quote]
Try these:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31)

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31)

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31)


I am astonished at the number of self-professed writers who lack basic reading comprehension skills, not to mention a rudimentary understanding of context.

You're linking or "quoting" out of context. That entire thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1169020#post1169020) is an attempt by a poster to make his earlier remarks clear -- it's in part a thread about subtext and context and irony.

If you don't know the entire history behind references to Hitler and trains, and the connotations of that remark, you lack any understanding at all of the horror that was the Reichmark.

Not one of those remarks is praising Hitler. Not one. The whole damn thread is written in the context of irony and sarcasm; that's what this post is about. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169020&postcount=1)

Bravo
03-16-2007, 04:14 AM
Try these:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31)

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31)

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31 (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1169571&postcount=31)

first, welcome back robert.

i was wondering what happened to you.

second, did you or anyone else report that post when you were so offended by it?

Dawno
03-16-2007, 04:16 AM
Robert, that's the same post three times. And in the context of the thread (which I have read in its entirety - the original post sets the tone and all else in the thread flows from it) it is very clear to anyone who reads with the smallest imaginable discernment that it was sarcasm. Nobody was praising Hitler. And if you want to try and create a position from those posts that they were, it won't be worth your time writing it or my time to respond.

Now find me a real post where someone sincerely praises Hitler and defends the Nazi swastika. I would have no compunctions at all about deleting those posts.

MacAllister
03-16-2007, 04:28 AM
Mac,

Thank you for moving it back where I can respond. Thank you for your thoughtful and direct approach. It's an important discussion on a lot of levels.


I would like to state that my discussion is neither borne from ignorance or malice, but what appears to be a growing fad to add the swastika/Hindu/Buddhist symbol in a number of member signature lines. I have to assume, possibly in error, that you are not a Buddhist nor Hindu, if that is the case what purpose does it serve to add the symbol to your signature line knowing that it has already upset some people? Is it to show solidarity to the two who have proclaimed that faith?
I am not a Buddhist or a Hindu, no. Neither am I an anti-Semite, nor am I a Nazi.

A bit of history: Recently, a Buddhist forum member's father died, and he added the symbol to his sig--as is absolutely his right--I found myself, the boards, that member, and the very old Buddhist use of that symbol under a decidedly vitriolic attack...An attack driven much, much more, IMHO, by an agenda of driving blog traffic to the site in question, than by any serious belief that the symbol was actually a Nazi swastika. So much am I convinced, that I'm not going to link to it, because it's precisely what is at the heart of this whole tempest in a teapot.

Those interested in the origins of this discussion, though, can find my response to that initial volley in the comments thread where Medievalist posted an eloquent and articulate response, which I support completely, at the AW LiveJournal (http://community.livejournal.com/awwatercooler/890.html) community site, by the way.

Honestly, I thought that would about be the end of it, a discussion akin to:
"This is a jackboot!"
"No it isn't, you're grossly wrong, it's in fact a sandal."
"Oh...well it LOOKED like a jackboot for a moment, there."

Instead, the discussion turned into:
"This is a jackboot!"
"Nope, sorry, it's a sandal. You're mistaken."
"Well, a shoe is a damn shoe, and I still see a jackboot! That makes you all Nazi creeps!"

So I disengaged, thinking the furor would die down, actually. You and I both know that, in fact, the blogger in question only escalated his rhetoric, vitriol, and began posting screen shots and board quotes taken quite obviously and transparently out of context.


What about the other faiths and beliefs that the AW community has, are they not worthy of the same recognition?Absolutely. And if one of our members is attacked for his or her Christianity by another in such venomous, poisonous, wrong headed and vitriolic terms as our Buddhist and Hindu members have been attacked, I'll put a cross in my sig. Or a Star of David, if it's about anti-semitism. Or a pink triangle if it's about being queer.

Here's an interesting thing about solidarity. There was some talk a few years ago in a Montana city where I was living about requiring gays and lesbians to register with the city, because there was still an old blue law on the Montana state books making gay and lesbian contact a felony. Almost overnight, Tee shirts hit the streets with a big pink triangle, and the bold black text, "Felony In Progress" -- Everyone was wearing the shirts, though. Het people. Het couples. Professors. Young mothers. Grandmothers. My boss at the time, for heaven's sake, wore one.

It was a really important response, and damn near spontaneous. I still don't know who built the shirts, or paid for them. People were giving them away out of cardboard boxes off of tailgates, all over town.

It was also the first time in my life I had a clear idea that people do care about justice--and that the thing to do about bullies is never, ever to avert our eyes and hope they don't pick on us, next. And while you and I may disagree about who the bully is in this specific discussion, you'll not convince me to turn away when I see something blatantly poisonous, damaging, and false being said.


You have some posting, which are quite disturbing, text wise, praising Hitler and yet you let them remain. How is one to interpret this new found freedom?Hopefully in the heavily ironic context in which it was posted.


Symbols are designed to be a reminder, be it a trademark on a Mercedes or a Swastika. Twisted, turned, inverted, mirror image it invokes the same horror in a great number of people. It is the first impression that sucks your breath away, having to hunting for links or elaborate intellectual explanations do not undo the shock.That's debatable, I think. However, we're humans not jackals, and capable of learning better when we're mistaken.


I have said it before and I will repeat it again, that symbol, stolen by the Nazis is stained with the blood of millions upon millions of humans beings, not just Jews, or Gays, or Gypsies, etc., but the blood of the tens of thousands of soldiers who fought to destroy that evil. The symbol in the western world has been tainted forever and no amount of intellectual discussion can cleanse it.You can say that as often as you'd like. It's not particularly pertinent to this discussion.

If, in fact, someone was trying to rehabilitate this symbol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Nazi_Swastika.svg/200px-Nazi_Swastika.svg.png

I think you'd have a much more valid point.

That's not, though, what this discussion is about. And no matter how many times you repeat something false, it's not going to make it true.



Am I crazy or are the priorities mixed up here? Can I claim I am Muslim and display the great work that the martyrs did by showing pictures of the twin towers falling? There must be limits set and that is called common sense, when you know someone is offended to keep doing it is spiteful.Well, no. It's not about spite.

And rhetorically speaking, that's a nasty piece of business, right there.

"Can I claim I am Muslim" indeed. Does that equate to a member claiming he's Buddhist or Hindu? Are you making a thinly veiled accusation, with that? All we can know of anyone's faith is what they "claim." Who on earth is anyone to question anyone else for "claiming" he's a Jew, for instance?

And you can certainly post an image of the Twin Towers. You can say what you'd like about that image, too.

There are bound to be consequences, is the thing. Sometimes those consequences are a locked thread, or a deleted post, or a time-out . . . and sometimes the result is that other people look up from what they're doing, and join you to stand shoulder to shoulder.

So don't think for a single moment that the young member with the link in his sig hasn't felt the consequences of posting it. And I firmly and entirely believe it wasn't posted casually or to cause offense.

I'm still just surprised that once a factual error and falsehood has been pointed out, there are still people who want to insist that the fault lies with the people who've been telling the truth.

Robert Toy
03-16-2007, 04:29 AM
Robert, that's the same post three times. And in the context of the thread (which I have read in its entirety - the original post sets the tone and all else in the thread flows from it) it is very clear to anyone who reads with the smallest imaginable discernment that it was sarcasm. Nobody was praising Hitler. And if you want to try and create a position from those posts that they were, it won't be worth your time writing it or my time to respond.

Now find me a real post where someone sincerely praises Hitler and defends the Nazi swastika. I would have no compunctions at all about deleting those posts.
Sorry, I screwed up the links, will be back in a minte!

Try this one: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1172445&postcount=42

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 04:38 AM
Sorry, I screwed up the links, will be back in a minte!

Try this one: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1172445&postcount=42

That entire thread is about sarcasm, and no one with any wits at all could seriously contemplate the phrase "funky dude" in reference to Hitler as serious--notice too there's a smiley there.

Have you actually ever seen a rabid frothing-at-the-mouth-hate-filled Nazi? Either the first generation or the current varieties?

I have; there's no way they would ever ever refer to Hitler with that sort of language.

Again, you're ignoring context, which clearly indicates that that post is not at all serious and in fact the entire thread is very clearly connoting the disgust any sane person has for Hitler.

Jean Marie
03-16-2007, 04:38 AM
w that said, my main issue is simply that this shouldve been discussed here first, but teddy is a bastard who decided to equate AW with hate on his blog, and he's a bastard for irrationally twisting my words from the confederate thread, and he's a sanctimonious, underhanded, passive aggresive POS for not coming into this thread himself.

come out come out wherever you are teddy.
I feel the same.

This entire episode is nuts.

No reason for it to have happened.

Hate begets hate.

And where the hell else are you supposed to discuss symbols? besides on a a writer's board? d-uh!

I said a long time ago, that reading is fundamental. Too bad more writers don't take the time to engage in that pastime.

Unfortunately, too many only read what they want to see, as opposed to what's really there.

Mac, I love you. Far as I'm concerned, you're doing the right thing. You've always got my support. Always.

Dawno
03-16-2007, 04:47 AM
Sorry, I screwed up the links, will be back in a minte!

Try this one: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1172445&postcount=42


As I said in my previous post, all the posts on that thread flowed from the original post and must be read in that context. I don't think the writer of that post did a good job expressing her sarcasm. I can see how, taken alone and out of the context of the thread, it could be mis-interpreted. I prefer to assume the readers of posts have the ability to interpret them in light of the entire conversation. If one doesn't do that, it's their mistake, not mine for leaving the post stand.

So I repeat, find me one post that sincerely praises Hitler and promotes the Nazi swastika.

Jean Marie
03-16-2007, 04:53 AM
As an added; I posted at said blog in an attempt to speak my .02. I wrote of my family ancestry as well as a friend. And received nothing, in the ensuing comments, but insults regarding me and my family.

How's that supposed to make me feel? The fact that my grandfather was Jewish is something I'm proud of. I didn't need to have it mocked. That's rather hateful, IMO. He was an awesome man who raised his 2 sons Catholic, as his wife was Catholic.

I also spoke of my Navajo friend and my Buddhist cousin. She doesn't see that symbol as being Nazi. To her, it's Buddhist. I happen to love her, too.

I also stand up and am loyal to my friends. That being Mac and others.

Robert Toy
03-16-2007, 04:54 AM
That entire thread is about sarcasm, and no one with any wits at all could seriously contemplate the phrase "funky dude" in reference to Hitler as serious--notice too there's a smiley there.

Have you actually ever seen a rabid frothing-at-the-mouth-hate-filled Nazi? Either the first generation or the current varieties?

I have; there's no way they would ever ever refer to Hitler with that sort of language.

Again, you're ignoring context, which clearly indicates that that post is not at all serious and in fact the entire thread is very clearly connoting the disgust any sane person has for Hitler.
We differ in many ways, thank God. Sarcasm like every written word has its place, knowing there is a Black member and saying “I’m the local sheriff and I love locking up Niggers” (add smiley); “Osama Bin Laden is my hero” (add smiley); “All mods are queer “(add smiley) adding a smiley at the end does not make it scarcasm.

Unless you want to classify scarcasm as stupidity, scarcasm has some wit, William is the expert.

Bravo
03-16-2007, 04:55 AM
first, welcome back robert.

i was wondering what happened to you.

second, did you or anyone else report that post when you were so offended by it?

im going to repeat this in case it was missed.

it was there and then gone and now back again.

thank you

Jean Marie
03-16-2007, 04:59 AM
We differ in many ways, thank God. Sarcasm like every written word has its place, knowing there is a Black member and saying “I’m the local sheriff and I love locking up Niggers” (add smiley); “Osama Bin Laden is my hero” (add smiley); “All mods are queer “(add smiley) adding a smiley at the end does not make it scarcasm.

Unless you want to classify scarcasm as stupidity, scarcasm has some wit, William is the expert.
Now, you're being ridiculous, Robert.

C'mon, you've got way more sense than this. I know you do. Not only that, but you've got tremendous wit, as well.

I went over to that blog, in peace, and was attacked. And you know it.

Might I add, that you are not being attacked, here. No, we're discussing. A far different approach. Not one bit spiteful.

You're an intelligent man. And I admire the fact that you've chosen to be open about this. Thank you for that. Thank you for not hiding.

Robert Toy
03-16-2007, 05:01 AM
im going to repeat this in case it was missed.

it was there and then gone and now back again.

thank you
Thank you, but I don't think I will be around too long.
Seond part of your question, no I did not report it. I normaly never report what I deem offensive posts, I fiure that is the job of the Mods. I have tackled (reposonded) to a few in my day, but report it to a Mod no.

MacAllister
03-16-2007, 05:04 AM
Actually, I think Deek said something about all the mods being queer . . . I'll have to go and look.

Probably he was just zooming Ray, though.

Jean Marie
03-16-2007, 05:06 AM
Thank you, but I don't think I will be around too long.
Seond part of your question, no I did not report it. I normaly never report what I deem offensive posts, I fiure that is the job of the Mods. I have tackled (reposonded) to a few in my day, but report it to a Mod no.
Shame, Robert, you've a lot to contribute to AW. Hope you change your mind.

If you think a post is offensive, at the very least, pm a mod.

Jean Marie
03-16-2007, 05:07 AM
Actually, I think Deek said something about all the mods being queer . . . I'll have to go and look.

Probably he was just mooning Ray, though.
He does that, frequently, Mac. Shoulda seen it, when you were away...

Dawno
03-16-2007, 05:24 AM
I normaly never report what I deem offensive posts, I fiure that is the job of the Mods.

It's our job to know what you'd deem offensive? Impossible and impractical.

Threads, especially in TIO and Office Party move very fast. I try to stay on top of certain threads by checking "new posts" frequently.

I subscribe to threads that need extra watching - other mods have other techniques and probably better ones than I do. Even so, we can't catch everything.

That's why there's the red and white triangle icon in every post - so you can let us know there's a potentially offensive, or disrespectful post/poster.

I daresay that there have been many times we miss a post that's not reported that leaves some folk with the impression that we don't care that it was offensive or disrespectful - that's not the case, but we can't be on every thread all the time.

Robert Toy
03-16-2007, 05:29 AM
Now, you're being ridiculous, Robert.

C'mon, you've got way more sense than this. I know you do. Not only that, but you've got tremendous wit, as well.

I went over to that blog, in peace, and was attacked. And you know it.

Might I add, that you are not being attacked, here. No, we're discussing. A far different approach. Not one bit spiteful.

You're an intelligent man. And I admire the fact that you've chosen to be open about this. Thank you for that. Thank you for not hiding.
I don't think I am being ridiculous. I have seen a trend at AW that disturbs me, my original departure was something worked out privately between Mac and me, but I see an ever increasing tolerance for outright, nasty cursing, name-calling and “sarcasm” that has all the hallmarks of some underlining agenda. Be it a pissing contest between a few people or outright blind rage, there has been a loosening of control over language, personal attacks (please don’t ask me to pull them up) and downright uncivilized behavior. Sure some people have been given time outs and some outright banned, but as a general observation AW has changed. As I have not been posting until today, you can’t blame me! And I don’t hide, never have and never will. I may get my ass bounced or banged around a bit, but that goes with the territory.

Calling a fellow AW member a bastard, etc. would never have been tolerated before, you (AW) feel like you have been attacked and the mob mentality has taken over. Now you are playing silly games each adding swastika/Hindu/Buddhist symbols to your signature lines, why just to piss someone off. That is not the AW I knew before. I do not think it is fair nor morally responsible to continue to do it.

MacAllister
03-16-2007, 05:33 AM
In point of fact, that's contextually dependent, too. Way back on the EZ board, someone called Hapisofi a bitch, and that stood.

But we're also three or four times the membership we were then.

I've got to be out for a couple of hours folks. Please don't burn the house down.

Rolling Thunder
03-16-2007, 05:36 AM
I've got to be out for a couple of hours folks. Please don't burn the house down.

K. I'm just gonna lurk as usual.

Robert Toy
03-16-2007, 05:36 AM
The point being?

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 05:38 AM
Thank you, but I don't think I will be around too long.
Seond part of your question, no I did not report it. I normaly never report what I deem offensive posts, I fiure that is the job of the Mods.

I see; you've abnegated your responsibilities as a member of the community, and now want to both whine about the standards of the community, and blame the Mods for not responding to posts you never reported or contacted us about. That's just ever so adult and responsible (yes, I'm being sarcastic).

The adult way to behave is to politely post or PM the OP and say "I wish you hadn't said that, it really offends me because . .. " or "Do you realize that you've just . . . ."

Instead, you choose not to engage, to place the most negative interpretation possible, and then blame someone else for the way you feel.

Bird of Prey
03-16-2007, 05:41 AM
I see; you've abnegated your responsibilities as a member of the community, and now want to both whine about the standards of the community, and blame the Mods for not responding to posts you never reported or contacted us about. That's just ever so adult and responsible (yes, I'm being sarcastic).

The adult way to behave is to politely post or PM the OP and say "I wish you hadn't said that, it really offends me because . .. " or "Do you realize that you've just . . . ."

Instead, you choose not to engage, to place the most negative interpretation possible, and then blame someone else for the way you feel.

He's being honest. That's a fact.

Meerkat
03-16-2007, 05:41 AM
The point being?

Freedom of speech is a double edged sword. The speaker has the right to say anything, but the morale responsibility not to cause needless insult or harm. The listener has a similar responsibility, not to take insult where none was intended. Symbols=speech=art=etc.

Robert Toy
03-16-2007, 05:44 AM
As I appear to be the only one offended by the content, I will take my leave.

Y’all have a nice day.

Robert Toy
03-16-2007, 05:50 AM
I see; you've abnegated your responsibilities as a member of the community, and now want to both whine about the standards of the community, and blame the Mods for not responding to posts you never reported or contacted us about. That's just ever so adult and responsible (yes, I'm being sarcastic).

The adult way to behave is to politely post or PM the OP and say "I wish you hadn't said that, it really offends me because . .. " or "Do you realize that you've just . . . ."

Instead, you choose not to engage, to place the most negative interpretation possible, and then blame someone else for the way you feel.
Okay, one more. I do not ignore the offender, I always engage the offender with an initial polite reply, which unfortunately sometimes can escalate at times. There is no need to report it to a mod. I walk away from very little, especially when someone is attempting to be snide.

Jean Marie
03-16-2007, 06:11 AM
Sorry to see you go, Robert. I mean that honestly.

Medievalist
03-16-2007, 06:12 AM
He's being honest. That's a fact.

It takes courage to be honest, and I do recognize that.