question for you experts

Ok Western fans and experts, I have a question for you. I asked it in the ff challenge, but not sure any of you would see it there. I've decided (this week) to have my mc be a recent widow of a preacher in Indian Territory. As long as he was living they lived in a furnished house (so to speak) owned by the church. Was also going to have the horses and a wagon furnished by the church, but am thinking they'd need their own means of arriving in IT, so the animals and wagon probably belong to the couple. How far off base am I here? Is it probable that the church would own the house and furnishings? Is it further probable that she would be asked to vacate the house after her husband dies? Thanks for your help.

Thanks for you help. To clarify a little, I mean Indian Territory as in what is now Oklahoma. I'm thinking probably down around what is now Ardemore. My best guess is it would be Southern Baptist, but I was thinking of a non-denominational church, much like was seen on the old westerns (when the folks went to church). I realize there may not be a 'church' building and that a community type building or even the school house would be used for church services. The preacher isn't the most dedicated he chose the profession because it looked like an easy way to make a living without really working. He moved his family to IT because it was a way to seperate her from her family. He was a domineering type husband, and verbally abusive. When he preached he preached the hell-fire and damnation sevices. Does that help? I'd even be willing for him to also be the school teacher if need be. Also, I was thinking he didn't actually sell his horses to move to IT, but was so lazy he didn't have any and the townspeople had paid the way for him and his family to come preach. I'm guessing he really wouldn't need a wagon, but maybe the townspeople could provide a horse and buggy for him to visit those in outlying areas. I'm really just thinking here, so any ideas are appreciated.

Ok Cav thanks. Can he be a decent or even good preacher and still be an abusive husband without the townfolk knowing about it? Also, if he's a good preacher would he be preaching to the Indians trying to convert them?

So could he be an 'shunned' Quaker and he moved his wife and baby to IT to get away from the Quakers and her family? Maybe she wasn't a Quaker? Sheesh, this back story stuff is hard. But it'll make the real story better. Thanks for all your help, I'm loving it

Jeanne, please accept my apologies, I certainly didn't mean to step on your (collectively, I mean all Quakers) toes. I'm sure I was lumping several religions together (Mennonite, Amish,Quakers, etc.) it's a bad habit of mine. I also tend to lump most protestant religions together, and as anyone in any of those religions will tell you, there is a vast difference between them. But since you've described your religion so well I don't think my man can be a part of that, or any of the others you mentioned.

Cav Guy, you probably know as much of the back story as I do, since I'm building it now. The original true story was that my gggrandmother traveled to Arkansas with her baby after her husband died of some illness following the Civil War. She supposedly made the trip because his parents were going to take her baby. I always thought she left Georgia or Tennessee (not sure where the family was from) and traveled alone with a small baby. A few years ago I learned that she was traveling from Texas, and she was with her parents who left Texas after the war took one son.
I guess once she left Texas her former inlaws didn't bother following her. That doesn't really make a good story, so I'm making lots of changes.

First I moved her to IT, because I don't know enough about Texas to write about it, heck I'm not sure I know enough about Oklahoma. Also, I couldn't think of a good reason to send her to Arkansas from Texas. So I'm just going to have her head out with no destination in mind, kind of like the book. When I was doing some research at the Oklahoma Historical Society I was told that before the landrush the only whites allowed to live in IT (aside from those who were illegal residents so to speak) where those who had a permit. And to get a permit they had to offer something the Indians couldn't provide for themselves. Preachers were often given permits easily. That's why I went with preacher. I just really need a reason for her and the child (who isn't a baby in my version) to be in IT.
Thanks for all your help.

Puma, feel free to throw your ideas in also.

I hope this is making sense to you all. You see why I usually stict with nonfiction? It's much easier

JeanneTGC said:

Which sort of leads me to ask, why IT? I'm guessing it's because you're physically there (based on your avatar info), but is it the "right" area for you to set your story? I have to say, I've heard your description of what happened to your grandmother -- given the day and age, I think it's a fascinating story. Women were rarely allowed to own property, they were denied rights we consider basic today -- and here is this woman whose relatives leave her off to fend for herself when her husband/their son dies? I think that she survived and clearly prospered is potentially a GREAT story. She was alone, in hostile territory (because most of the West was hostile in those days particularly if you were a woman alone with a baby or small child), and managed to succeed and become a matriarch? Again, to me, that's a fascinating story, just begging to be told.

You're not going to be able to avoid the research, no matter where you set the story. Historical readers are notorious for their attention to detail. It's part of why they love reading historicals -- to learn something new, to find a writer who loves and brings alive whatever period for them. But they are very quick to go check a fact and verify an assertation, and if you're wrong too often or too early, it's all over for them. So, research is going to be a part of your writing life, if you're going for realistic historical fiction of any kind. Ergo, choose the right area for your story, and do the research. It will take a bit longer, but it WILL be worth it (says someone who now knows a whole lot more about the Old West and all the aspects that made it up than she ever thought she would or would need to).

Anyway, I throw my vote in for your grandmother -- she sounds like someone I would truly be excited to know.

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I'm not sure how much she was left to fend for herself. She and her husband moved with her family from Tenn (or Georgia) to Texas. I gather her dad was a wanderer, never happy no matter where he was. I assume she was married when her family moved to Texas, but she could've met and married him in Texas, I really don't have any idea. I think her husband and one of her brothers died during the war, another brother died shortly after the war. It was after his death that her family moved to Ark and she went with them (with the child). Guess I need to do some research and figure out why some of the folks settled in Ark, or I could have her go West. One of the things I was changing was her traveling with her family, I wanted her to travel alone. Maybe that won't work.

Puma said:

Hi Ritinrider - I vote with JeanneTGC - There have been so many historical novels written about the "important" people in history - but they were a very small percentage of the total populace. They are not the ones who really tamed the country and fought adversity - it was the little guys, the unknowns who shaped this country. There were many women like your grandmother, especially in the period after the Civil War who had to make it on their own. It's a good story for telling. If I were you, I'd research the actual facts and see what you can come up with. It would still be fiction because you don't know exactly what happened and what was said at any given time - but be closer to non-fiction. Fill in the gaps you can't cover with her actual history with things that were happening in the same area of the country at the time or things that would happen anywhere (church socials, school, going to the store, etc.)


IT Missionaries - one of my brother-in-law's grandfathers was actually a missionary in Indian Territory. He sent his children back east to school every year. Things were pretty rough (I have some of his autobiography around somewhere if you want me to try to dig it up to see if it's got anything interesting - it's typed up on an old typewriter). If I remember correctly he was a Methodist.

Religion 2 - Back in the 1800's many of the churches were fire and brimstone. My family background is Lutheran and from what I've heard the services (late 1800's-early 1900's) were long and there was a lot of preaching about damnation and the wages of sin. There's been a lot of change in religion in the 20th century. If you really want to stick with your preacher story, do some Googling on specific religions even with a time period included, and see if you can pick one that approximates what you're looking for. Then do a LOT of research. (And be sure there was at least one missionary of that denomination in IT)

Your original idea of getting to IT - where was the railroad? Is it possible they went West on a train with only their personal possessions and then had to get a horse and buggy, etc.?

Keep at it, Ritinrider. And good luck! Puma

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Thanks Puma, I don't know if anybody knows more than the little bit I know or not. Guess I'll be taking a road trip to visit where the family settled in Ark. see if I can learn anything. I'm not sure about the railroad in IT at that time, another thing to research.

Cav Guy said:

If you decide to use IT, keep in mind that it was a VERY rough place at this time, as Jeanne indicated. If your MC is coming from the Deep South, Texas would be a more "realistic" destination, as many displaced Southerners went there after the war. Montana also attracted some, although mostly from border states like Missouri. Going from Arkansas to Texas wouldn't be that much of a stretch.

Putting your MC (and I like the idea of fictionalizing your ancestor, so I vote with Jeanne) in IT also opens up the question of what sort of community she'd live in. The town that would have a church and the like was pretty thin on the ground in many areas of IT, so perhaps Texas would be a better fit. There's a great deal of information available about Texas during this period, so researching it wouldn't be too hard.

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Actually, she was going from Texas to Arkansas, I must've tranposed my words. I don't have a problem having her go from Texas to Arkansas, I just don't know what was in Arkansas to attract someone. Although there must've been something since plenty of people settled there. I thought about her knowing her family was there, but how did she learn that if they were in Tenn when she left?

Once I get this researched out, and the backstory figured, the actual story better continue to be fun to write.

you guys are great. thanks for all your help. Ever get this book published I'll have to put you all on the acknowledgments page. If it's a best seller I might even spring for dinner for each of you when I'm in your neck of the woods promoting the thing.

Thank you Jeanne, I was worried I'd do too much research and never write the darn book. I love doing research, but it seemed that for every 'fact' I found, there was another one desputing it, and there was the fear of getting 'lost' in the research because it's so enjoyable. As a result, I was just trying to write the story, but that doesn't work, as you all know. So, I'll take a step back and do some more research before striking out again. Now, if I can just find the boxes of geneology stuff. I'll be back later when I figure some more of this back story out. Again, many thanks to all of you