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thethinker42
03-06-2007, 10:34 PM
Ok, so if I had a character tied in a chair with his hands tied behind his back, and someone kicked him in the chest to knock him over on a hardwood floor...

1. Would the bruise on his chest from the person's foot be somehow different than if someone was already on the ground and had their chest stepped on?

2. Would it be realistic to have a mild concussion?

3. If his hands were tied behind the chair back, would broken fingers or even a broken wrist be realistic?

Vanatru
03-06-2007, 10:59 PM
Which way did the chair fall? If backwards, then I bet his hands hurt, if they were behind the chair. Or are his hands in front of the chair back, against his back?

:)

1. Depends on how hard kicked. Either in the chair or on the ground. With toe? Heel? Side kick. Direct stomp, soccer kick. With boot, tenny shoe. How strong was the person? Wimpy, average, uber?

2. Sure. If he/she/it bounced their head off the floor hard enough. I've done that a couple times and generally got nothing more than a few stars. Varying factors will determine the actual damage/trauma.

3. If the hands are behind the back, but not behind the chair, they could be ok. If behind the chair back, behind the back, then they could still be ok. If the fingers are splayed out, then they could get jammed up.

We used to pratice falling backwards and sideways in chairs. If you know what to expect, it's not so bad and you don't get hurt. Generally. If your not ready for it, then yeah, it can be painful. Some professions teach those tricks. What's the MC do for a living?

icerose
03-06-2007, 11:32 PM
1. Would the bruise on his chest from the person's foot be somehow different than if someone was already on the ground and had their chest stepped on?

Yes because some of the force is transfered in the fall, since the person isn't holding still and pressed against the object taking the full force, the bruise would be different. As the above Vanatru said different kicks and shoes will give different bruises.

2. Would it be realistic to have a mild concussion?

Make sure the back of the chair is shorter than his head, it also helps if he knocks against the edge of the wall, like if it has a wood trim running along the bottom.

3. If his hands were tied behind the chair back, would broken fingers or even a broken wrist be realistic?

Depends on the chair. If the part where it meets the seat bends in so there is room for his wrist to be safe. If it's a flat back and especially if he lands on an object on the floor such as a metal pipe or something that would force pressure on a specific area, then yeah, they could break.

blacbird
03-06-2007, 11:48 PM
Falling over backwards in a chair is a highly dangerous thing. I know of a man (a famous geologist, actually) who tipped over backwards in a chair about ten years ago, and suffered a head injury that has left him a wheelchair-bound paraplegic.

I think you can pretty much do what you want for an outcome to this scene. There are so many variables and uncertainties. Just be sure you need all the detail, and don't add gratuitous ones.

caw

thethinker42
03-07-2007, 02:13 AM
1. Depends on how hard kicked. Either in the chair or on the ground. With toe? Heel? Side kick. Direct stomp, soccer kick. With boot, tenny shoe. How strong was the person? Wimpy, average, uber?

He's getting kicked in the chest and knocked backwards by a woman wearing heels. High enough in the chest to knock him back, of course. She's a kickboxer, so quite strong. Initially, the print on his chest is assumed to be from someone stepping on him, but it's later figured out that he was kicked. (yes, it's relevant to the plot LOL)


2. Sure. If he/she/it bounced their head off the floor hard enough. I've done that a couple times and generally got nothing more than a few stars. Varying factors will determine the actual damage/trauma.

And ya know, I feel pretty stupid after asking the question, since I myself have gotten a concussion from falling backwards and hitting my head on the floor. Granted, I was standing and had what looked like a seizure of sorts (I stiffened, and then feel STRAIGHT back, with a lot more momentum than just tipping over or being pushed), but still. So...duh. LOL


3. If the hands are behind the back, but not behind the chair, they could be ok. If behind the chair back, behind the back, then they could still be ok. If the fingers are splayed out, then they could get jammed up.

Good to know...I was planning to have his hands behind the chair. Figured a fractured wrist, messed up fingers, etc.


We used to pratice falling backwards and sideways in chairs. If you know what to expect, it's not so bad and you don't get hurt. Generally. If your not ready for it, then yeah, it can be painful. Some professions teach those tricks. What's the MC do for a living?

He's just an average joe, not doing anything where he'd expect to be in this kind of situation, so he wouldn't have any training. Plus, the woman kicking him catches him rather off guard.

thethinker42
03-07-2007, 02:17 AM
1. Would the bruise on his chest from the person's foot be somehow different than if someone was already on the ground and had their chest stepped on?

Yes because some of the force is transfered in the fall, since the person isn't holding still and pressed against the object taking the full force, the bruise would be different. As the above Vanatru said different kicks and shoes will give different bruises.

So, assuming he was kicked by someone wearing a dress shoe/high-heeled shoe, in what way might the bruise appear different to, say, a coroner? Would the difference be obvious, or immediately noticeable?

thethinker42
03-07-2007, 02:28 AM
Falling over backwards in a chair is a highly dangerous thing. I know of a man (a famous geologist, actually) who tipped over backwards in a chair about ten years ago, and suffered a head injury that has left him a wheelchair-bound paraplegic.

Yikes!!! Yeah, head injuries are not something to mess with...I've had several concussions, and after one, my dyslexia got considerably worse AND I tend to stutter/jumble my words/etc more than I ever did. For the first couple of weeks, I literally could NOT write out my own name without misspelling it.


I think you can pretty much do what you want for an outcome to this scene. There are so many variables and uncertainties. Just be sure you need all the detail, and don't add gratuitous ones.

Good point. I just want to be somewhat realistic, since his injuries may play a key role in solving a crime. I haven't quite finished ironing out the story, so I'm not 100% sure, but I wanted to figure out if my idea is even viable. :P

Soccer Mom
03-07-2007, 02:42 AM
The imprint of a high-heel kick is going to be very different from the imprint of...say...a sneaker or man's shoe. If she stomps his chest with her weight distributed evenly through toe and heel, she will leave two bruises: One for the instep and one for the heel. But that's not a natural motion. If she's a kickboxer, she will strike him with her heel. (and probably break it.) This would leave a smallish bruise comparatively speaking. It really depends on the size of the heel.

Rich
03-07-2007, 02:51 AM
Ok, so if I had a character tied in a chair with his hands tied behind his back, and someone kicked him in the chest to knock him over on a hardwood floor...

1. Would the bruise on his chest from the person's foot be somehow different than if someone was already on the ground and had their chest stepped on?

2. Would it be realistic to have a mild concussion?

3. If his hands were tied behind the chair back, would broken fingers or even a broken wrist be realistic?


1. Yes. If he got kicked while on the floor there would be more pressure because the floor won't have the "give" that a kick in the chest in a sitting position would have. The kick on the floor would be more damaging.

2. It would not at all be unrealistic.

3. A broken wrist would be more plausible. Much would depend on how he was tied. Although the details of how he was tied would not be that important.

thethinker42
03-07-2007, 02:52 AM
The imprint of a high-heel kick is going to be very different from the imprint of...say...a sneaker or man's shoe. If she stomps his chest with her weight distributed evenly through toe and heel, she will leave two bruises: One for the instep and one for the heel. But that's not a natural motion. If she's a kickboxer, she will strike him with her heel. (and probably break it.) This would leave a smallish bruise comparatively speaking. It really depends on the size of the heel.

Ahhhhh, that's what I was looking for.

Sweeeeeeeet...thanks! :)

thethinker42
03-07-2007, 02:54 AM
1. Yes. If he got kicked while on the floor there would be more pressure because the floor won't have the "give" that a kick in the chest in a sitting position would have. The kick on the floor would be more damaging.

Makes sense. Mostly what I'm looking for is a distinctive difference that might tip someone off that he was kicked, not stomped.


3. A broken wrist would be more plausible. Much would depend on how he was tied. Although the details of how he was tied would not be that important.

Makes sense. I won't be going into detail, or at least not much, about how he's tied. I just didn't want to say "his chair was kicked over and he busted his wrist" and have my readers saying "Um, no, you dork, it wouldn't be. LOSER."

Thanks all!

kirstin_mccormack
03-07-2007, 03:24 AM
If his hands are tied behind his back, around the chair, it seems like it's possible he could break one of the bones in his forearms (i.e. because they will likely be the first to hit the ground, and then they will take the brunt of the weight of his body as it lands on them. Plus., where the back of the chair lands on his arms, it will hurt a lot, I'd think.)

Sandi LeFaucheur
03-07-2007, 03:46 AM
I wonder if you'd dislocate your shoulder or break your clavicle? I was just sitting with my arms around the back of the chair, and that's where the strain seems to be. Hey, Coloradoguy, where are you? And the sides of the chair really bit into my forearms, after 15 seconds. You'd definitely be bruised there, even if the chair didn't fall over.

Rich
03-07-2007, 04:00 AM
Ah, an armchair quarterback.

Just joshin'.

thethinker42
03-07-2007, 05:04 AM
I wonder if you'd dislocate your shoulder or break your clavicle? I was just sitting with my arms around the back of the chair, and that's where the strain seems to be. Hey, Coloradoguy, where are you? And the sides of the chair really bit into my forearms, after 15 seconds. You'd definitely be bruised there, even if the chair didn't fall over.

You experienced pain for my benefit? *wipes away a tear* I'm so touched.

(And thanks - definitely handy info!)

scarletpeaches
03-07-2007, 06:35 AM
I'm assuming you're talking about the chair Wack cuffed me to, because he wanted to have his wicked way with me all night long, no stopping, no messing, just constant bang bang bang all night, crikey Wack, again, are you superhuman?!

thethinker42
03-07-2007, 05:42 PM
I'm assuming you're talking about the chair Wack cuffed me to, because he wanted to have his wicked way with me all night long, no stopping, no messing, just constant bang bang bang all night, crikey Wack, again, are you superhuman?!

Yes, because I showed up, kicked your chair over, and took Wack for myself. I just wanted to make sure the injuries could look like an accident...

Anonymisty
03-07-2007, 05:53 PM
Ok, so if I had a character tied in a chair with his hands tied behind his back, and someone kicked him in the chest to knock him over on a hardwood floor... If his hands were tied behind the chair back, would broken fingers or even a broken wrist be realistic?

I just put myself into the position you describe, and I'm thinking his arms would break before his wrists would. His arms would be between the floor and the sides of the chair, with his own body weight adding to the force against them. Snap! Ouch!

But again, as others have said, it all depends on the individual. If he listened to his mother and drank his milk as a boy, maybe his bones are strong enough to withstand the impact. *grin*

Tsu Dho Nimh
03-07-2007, 09:44 PM
Ok, so if I had a character tied in a chair with his hands tied behind his back, and someone kicked him in the chest to knock him over on a hardwood floor...


1. Would the bruise on his chest from the person's foot be somehow different than if someone was already on the ground and had their chest stepped on?

maybe ... if the plot depends on it


2. Would it be realistic to have a mild concussion?

Definitely. He's going straight back and will smack the back of his head (where the visual cortex is) with all of gravity plus part of the force of the kick. He'll see a white flash on impact and have at the least, problems seeing for a while.

I've seen people fall over onto snow and get a concussion bad enough to send them out in an ambulance!


3. If his hands were tied behind the chair back, would broken fingers or even a broken wrist be realistic?

Definitely. My guess, based on the mechanism of injury, is that it's going to be both arms broken between forerm and wrist, which effectively paralyses his hands (muscles have nothing to pull on). Bilateral fracture of the radius and ulna ...

And with ALL his weight on the back of the chair, forcing the chair back into his forearms, he's going to have one heck of a time doing anything except lie there and suffer.

Try some bondage tonight ... get tied up and figure out where he's going to land.

Edita A Petrick
03-07-2007, 10:09 PM
Make the woman's heel 1" and not a stiletto. Very hard to balance for a kick in 4"-heels, pro kick-boxer or not. Yes, Hollywood does it all the time but then do you want snickering...?

I've read your chat with members here. The issue of brusing really comes into play at the med-examiner's office only if there is a concern with perimotem and postmortem bruising. Med-examiner needs to <eliminate> injuries that were done to the body postmorten such that he'd be able to determine which one of the injuries suffered while alive actually killed him.

Did the victim's body sustain all the injuries while he was still alive and thus which one of the inflicted injuries actually killed him? Was it the kick to the chest (collapsed lung, rib broke and pierced an organ...internal bleeding) or did victim hit his head on the floor so hard he suffered brain injury - internal bleeding of the brain?

If all your victim's bruising and broken bones were suffered when he was still alive, their nature will be significant only <which one> killed him. And when you decide which injury killed him then you'll focus on that particular bruise - say it was the heel-in-the-chest - so you'll determine force to the chest caused trauma and then conclude that it was a female heel, and that this woman had great balance and was either so strong her kick killed a man or so well-trained in kick-boxing that once again she knew exactly where to kick him to kill him. You don't need to concern yourself with shape of all the rest of the bruises. As a writer focus only on the one that killed him and speculate about that one. Best regards, Edita.

thethinker42
03-07-2007, 10:37 PM
Try some bondage tonight ... get tied up and figure out where he's going to land.

No bondage for me for a few months. Hehehehe (4 more months...4 more months...damn this deployment...4 more months...)

but I get what you're saying. :)

thethinker42
03-07-2007, 10:52 PM
Make the woman's heel 1" and not a stiletto. Very hard to balance for a kick in 4"-heels, pro kick-boxer or not. Yes, Hollywood does it all the time but then do you want snickering...?

That was my plan...I can't even walk in the damn things (hell, I rolled my ankle BAD in a pair of wide 1" heels). I wasn't going for tall/skinny heels, just a shoe that will leave a distinctive mark.


And when you decide which injury killed him then you'll focus on that particular bruise - say it was the heel-in-the-chest - so you'll determine force to the chest caused trauma and then conclude that it was a female heel, and that this woman had great balance and was either so strong her kick killed a man or so well-trained in kick-boxing that once again she knew exactly where to kick him to kill him. You don't need to concern yourself with shape of all the rest of the bruises. As a writer focus only on the one that killed him and speculate about that one. Best regards, Edita.

The bruising pattern is just going to play a part in helping the detective figure out the chain of events leading up to the person's death. Whether or not he was kicked or stepped on was not relevant to how he died (he was shot in the head shortly after the chair incident)...but it DOES make a difference in determining who was there when he died. (Trust me...it'll make sense in the context of the story LOL...I just wanted to make sure the concept wasn't too off-base...ie., the bruising wouldn't look any different either way, etc)