I feel like crying now

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Elodie-Caroline

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I hope it's okay to post this here? As I really do feel rejected...

I sent my recently finished story off to a friend to read over for me, he's an ex teacher and probably the most intelligent person I know. Anyway, after nearly a month's wait, he wrote back to me today. He said that my story was good and that I had a good writing style... Then he went on and pointed out all of the bad things in it, they far outweigh the good. One of the things he said was, that it was unbelievable.
I guess I'm going to have to do a major rewrite now, or else just crawl off into a corner and cry my eyes out. I actually liked my story too :cry:


Elodie
 
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If he's pointing out what's wrong with it, I'm assuming we're talking about, oh...head-jumping for instance? Things that can be fixed?

When it comes to 'unbelievable', ask yourself these questions: Does this person normally read books in your genre? Could his opinion be coloured by his own personal tastes? And what of, for instance, (with apologies to PeeDee) zombie-spanking stories? Completely unbelievable if you analyse it, but if you're willing to suspend your disbelief, ANYTHING can be entertaining if it's written well.

It puzzles me that he said the story was good and yet also unbelievable.

But trust me, getting your book back covered in the dastardly red pencil is nothing new. If you can see where you're going wrong, then you're learning, and that's a good thing in itself.

And remember, someone being an intelligent teacher doesn't always make them an intelligent reader. I'm not saying he's wrong about the mistakes he's pointed out, but work on them, do a complete rewrite - yes, a COMPLETE rewrite, then see what happens.
 

CaroGirl

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Congratulations. You actually found someone strong enough to be honest with you. Put your story away for a day and then go back to it with his comments in hand. If you can see where he's coming from, you can fix it. Your story will be better. And maybe you'll sell it.

Don't take it too hard. Imagine if he'd just told you it was great and you wasted your time amassing a stack of rejections without knowing why.
 

maddythemad

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I'm so sorry, Elodie-Caroline. Even if you greaty admire/respect the opinion of this friend of yours, I still wouldn't do a rewrite based soley on his opinion. Send it out to other friends, maybe post a chapter in SYW, or join a critique group. Don't give up. :)

ETA: Double posted (is that what it's called?) with scarletpeaches and carogirl.
 
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Meerkat

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"site, place, position" --Roget's Thesaurus
So in other words Elodie, you have something many of us don't have: constructive criticism. I'll trade you without questions my pile of "nope--not for me"'s I have for the clear-cut course of action you have and can begin work on....as soon as that initial shock of his reply wears off, of course.

Keep your chin up, rewrite slightly, resub, and IT SHALL SELL!
Best of success now!
 

WildScribe

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Agreed. Good on you for finding someone honest about his opinions. Now take them as they were intended, and fix that puppy up!
 

Meerkat

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You know too, the fact that you got four replies within two minutes of each other means somebody has great faith in you. I'm talkin' 'bout your pals at AW....
 
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...I still wouldn't do a rewrite based soley on his opinion...

Based on someone's opinion, no...but based on technicalities (i.e. spelling, grammar) yes. Rewrites, when used for tightening the writing, clearing up loose plot threads and other improvements, are par for the course really.

Chin up! :D
 

Rich

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I let the editors who edit a pub do my critiquing. If I could find somebody who I can trust to tell me what's what, I'd marry her/him, no matter what gender. (my wife would be quite pissed, but business is business.)

I'm heavy on believability in a story--willing suspension of disbelief notwithstanding. All eggs in one basket, Elodie? You might've been better off sending it to an agent first. He/she would be more objective, and in the business of his/her own business.
 

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Hang in there, and here's a hug. :Hug2: You did a good thing in allowing for someone else's critical eye to go over it. This will help it become a better manuscript in the end. I would suggest you get other eyes to look at it as well, and not rely solely on one person's judgment. Do you have a writer's group that could crit it? (or use the AW one)...
 

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Elodie, take what you can use of his crit and toss the rest. Really. I just sold a story yesterday that someone told me was unbelievable. That my situation was impossible, not just implausable. It took five markets to sell it, but it sold. For cash. If you like the story, then there's an editor out there that will like it, too.
 

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Be sure to thank him for taking the time to be thorough :)

I feel bad about heavy crits for a while, generally I read story comments one day--get over the reaction, and fix them the next day.
 

Celia Cyanide

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It puzzles me that he said the story was good and yet also unbelievable.

Me too. Does he think the whole thing is unbelievable, or just one aspect?

I agree with what others have said. You are lucky to have found someone who is honest with you.

When you have spent some time away from it, and you are less emotional about it, go back and look at his comments again. Then you can decide what you agree with, and what you think might make it better.
 

janetbellinger

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Hey Elodie, don't put too mcuh stock in what a teacher tells you about your writing. This person is probably so steeped in rules and regulations about writing that he or she cannot see past it. Believe me, a teacher is the last person on earth you want to read your manuscript. Okay, maybe if that person is also a writer.
 

icerose

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Hey Elodie,
Being unbelievable can be little things that together push it over. It doesn't necessarily mean it's in severe trouble. After you've gone through it again, you know my e-mail if you need another opinion on the believability factor.
 

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Elodie,

Just chiming in to agree with those who have pointed out how lucky you are to have someone willing to do an honest critique. It's praise of a higher order than the praise you (thought) you wanted to hear.

He did not patronize you. He spoke to you as a peer. And since you consider him the most intelligent person you know, then, that's high praise of his estimation of you. If he did not consider you capable and talented and mature enough to process critique, he'd have saved himself a lot of time and aggravation by tossing off some feel-good but meaningless praise: "Nice work! Loved it! Good luck to you."

Not only was this person honest with you, he was generous. Of course, you wanted him to be generous with praise for your work--as we all do--but he went one better. He was generous with his time and expertise. He would not have bothered if he hadn't felt the story--and you--were worth it. So rather than feeling badly, you should feel encouraged.
 

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Don't let it get you too far down - this just happened today, yes? Give yourself a day to :rant: But tomorrow, start thinking over exactly what he said.

Not what you're thinking he said, but what he said.

Then, consider each point carefully and with as objective a mind as you can muster. I'd be willing to bet you 90% of his comments or remarks would be easily addressed without affecting the story as you see it.

And I'd be willing to bet the other 10% fall into two catagories: Total crap because he didn't know what he was talking about - or - perfect sense and something you can fix with a few adjustments.

There's nothing more valuable than honest, brutal criticism. We ask for it all the time, whine when we don't get it - but when we DO, it freaks us out every time. It's a natural first reaction to panic, cry, get angry, then justify why it's wrong.

It's a natural SECOND reaction to think it over, par it down and realize it's not as huge or unmanageable as we first thought.

Hang in there! Get some chocolate (Easter candy is the best) and put it away for the rest of the day. Then, it's back to work ! :)
 

johnzakour

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If I was happy with my book I would never do a major rewrite based on one opinion from a friend (nomatter how intelligent) who can not publish or sell my book to a publisher.

Why is this friends opinion any more valid than your own?

Friends are for telling you the person you are dating is a jerk or that you've had too much to drink, don't drive home. Friends shouldn't critique friends.

(If I listened to all my friends about my writing I'd still be one book one instead of book fourteen - counting the ones coming in 2007 & 08.)
 
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Jamesaritchie

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Unbelievable

Being a teacher, and being incredibly intelligent, does not in any way mean a person has a clue about what makes a novel good or bad, believable or unbelievable. Only an agent or editor with long experience in pleasing the reading public can tell you either of these things for sure.

One of the best editors in the business thought Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness was pure crap in every way, so even good editors get it wrong on occasion.

Let some real agents and editors look at your novel before you get too dejected. No one person ever gets to make this decision, and certainly not one who hasn't been in the business for years.
 

Elodie-Caroline

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Hi everyone,
Thank you ever so much for all of your input, and most of all, your kindness about my problem... I really don't know what else to call it?

Right, he was a teacher a long time ago, a foreign languages teacher. He's an internet friend, so I don't know him personally, and obviously he doesn't know me that well either, we've just talked on and off for 6 yrs or so. I did ask him to read it, and I did tell him from the beginning that I wanted an honest opinion, which I most certainly got eh. I suppose when you see it all written down on an e-mail as a critique, it sort of shocks you. I don't feel so bad now though, hubby took me for a drive down to Canary Wharf tonight, that always lifts my spirits seeing that at nighttime.

I know there is one particular chapter which really falls flat, but it's violent and someone needed getting rid of. I'm not a violent person in my own mind, so found this really difficult to do. It took me months to even come up with this part, but it does need to be there, somehow, just changed or a major rewrite I suppose.
The story is a romance/thriller btw. So not really a man's cup of tea I guess?

I'll put the e-mail on here in a little while, and my excuses, er, explanations about each part ok.

Thank you all very much once again, you're all great! ... love Elodie :)
 

Elodie-Caroline

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His e-mail is in the normal font, I'll put my explanations in bold..

Okay, some initial comments on your novel. The basic idea is of course
very sound, since it is always interesting to read about a human
relationship as it develops through hopes, doubts, disappointments,
etc.

The style is basically good, albeit with somewhat repetitive emphasis
on the minutiae of daily life. Do we need a description of EVERY cup
of coffee Pierre drinks? There are occasional grammatical lapses:
missing apostrophes, incorrect use of initial capital for common nouns,
misuse of who/whom, errors in the sequence of tenses, confusion of
did/done, lay/lie and sat/sitting, etc.
Right, the guy goes out and makes Coffee because he sometimes doesn't know what to do and say, so his excuse is to disappear off to the kitchen. My sister says that my friend just doesn't know what it's like to live in our houses, our kettles are never cold.
For capitals, I think that's probably due to MS Word always putting capitals for he and she before said after dialogue? With the did and done, I am using a French bloke talking English, except he uses French grammar for English talking ie; we'd say 'Have you done?' whereas he'd say 'You have done?' The other parts I can look over again and again. I do actually know the difference between lay and lie though, I actually looked it up in my Dictionary to make sure of the proper uses.


Most novels require a certain suspension of belief, given that they
relate events which are outwith the reader's direct experience. But
there are moments in your book when the reader is expected to suspend
belief to a ridiculous extent. The frame on which the developing
relationship between Pierre and Samantha hangs is incredible in the
true sense of the word, i.e. totally unbelievable.
What can I say? It's a romance, it's how I see it and how I want it, it's the main basis of the story, and I cannot change the outcome of it, even if it means publishing it as an e-book.

I may think that Pete Docherty is a poor role model and it is highly
unlikely that I should enjoy any time in his company - but I doubt if
I can say that I "loathe him with a passion". Why, at the start of
the novel, does Pierre react so vehemently to a woman whom he has never
met and who has never had any direct impact on his life? It is never
satisfactorily explained.
I can loathe someone I've never met, seeing them on the internet or on the TV screen makes me say yucky things about them, you ought to hear me when I see a pic of Jean Reno and his lollipop headed, internet bride looking wife lol.

There are occasional moments in the story when it is hard to believe
certain facts. How can a man with three sisters have never heard of
Barbie (page 71)? Is it likely that a woman with Samantha's sexual
history "had never done this before in her life" (page 102)? Would a
trained police officer "throw his gun to the floor" (page 87)?
I had Barbie dolls as a kid, and I bet my brother didn't know what they were called back then? Plus, when my female MC mentions Barbie, all she says is. 'I must take after, Barbie.' and the male MC asks 'Who is that?'
With the bit where she has never done this before, well, that's a little on the naughty side so I won't explain it; except to say that this was something to do with what happened to her when she was small and she just used to pretend to her old boyfriends. In other words, she was faking it. believe it or not, this isn't an erotic story, there's only the one scene near the end, which isn't done graphically in any kind of way. But her whole life is there, so anyone who reads it would know where my girl was coming from, excuse the pun.

And then there is the protection provided to Samantha by the French
police. Private individuals cannot normally hire, i.e. for payment,
the services of the police. If the police believe that there is a
credible threat to someone, protection is provided by the State, acting
through the forces of law and order, at the taxpayers' expense. And
if protection is to be provided, it would not be by one person. CPOs
(close protection officers) work as teams; given the resources
apparently allocated to Samantha's home in the south of France, there
would be at least two teams of three men protecting her in Paris.
And if she is at threat, would any CPO allow her to go wandering around
the city on her own?
My male MC used to be a Policeman, but now he works as a freelance bodyguard who does private jobs sometimes for the ministry of the interior. My girl just happens to be a friend of the head of the ministry of the interior's family, which is all explained very early on in the story. She doesn't want a crowd of bodyguards, she likes her privacy too much.

The story becomes even more incredible when it switches to Provence
(which is a region of southeast France, and not a town as suggested on
page 70). Even bumbling Inspector Clouseau ought to be able to track
down an old Transit van in the south of France. How long would it
take the English police to find a Deux-Cheveaux with French plates
pottering around High Wycombe? It's a bit like that episode in one of
Tom Clancy's novels when 14 Irishmen walk into a pub in Hereford and
order pints of Guinness, "without anyone paying them any attention".
Come on! - 14 Irishmen, whispering to one another in a pub in Hereford,
home of the SAS, and nobody notices!
I'm sorry, to me this just seems like nit-picking, and I've changed it to the city of Nice anyway.

Given that Pierre and his bunch of assassins seem decided from the
outset to eliminate Jeffrey, why did they put Samantha at such risk by
allowing her outside the house? Why didn't they just pull him from
the van parked across the road? And indeed, if Pierre can come and
go through the back entrance without being seen, why doesn't he sneak
Samantha out the same way, thus ensuring that there is absolutely no
risk of her coming to any harm?
I explained in the story how Samantha wouldn't want someone to just be killed off. She's already fragile and suffering depression from the guy Jeffrey killing her husband and baby ten years before, she would still have his death on her conscience if he was simply 'disappeared'. She needs to play a part into getting him... But I do know that this is my weak spot in the story.

And after Pierre has been painted as such a loving uncle, kind brother
and sensitive suitor, why does he turn into a vicious thug, beating a
restrained prisoner and ordering his execution. Okay, the DGSE (French
secret service) may have come out of the Greenpeace affair badly, but
there is a difference between a bungled operation and cold-blooded
beating and murder.
Pierre is angry after the bloke describes, in detail, what he wants to do to Samantha, Pierre loves her and goes ape-shit. But it was already decided that justice would be done to Jeffrey this time, so that he could never hurt her or anyone else again.

It's a good story, and both the main characters are described with
enough depth to make the story move forward. But I would suggest
re-writing the Jeffrey part of the story to make the novel as a whole
more credible.
 
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johnzakour

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Actually, his comments seem fair enough.

Of course I've never read the MS and what the heck do I know anyhow...

It's still your book and you have to do what you want to do. :)
 

Saundra Julian

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I have not read your story but after reading this email I’d say your friend is trying to point out some things in the story that need work.
From your comments, I assume you will ignore his critique, which I did not find at all insulting or mean. I wish I had your friend to critique my work.

Nevertheless, I wish you the best of luck with your book.
 

Elodie-Caroline

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No, I'm not ignoring my friend's critique at all, I was just trying to explain certain parts that were fully explained in the story, that's all. I wouldn't have asked him to read it for me if I didn't value his input, honestly.
I am going to go over it with a fine tooth comb, which I had already been doing since I sent him my MS nearly a month ago anyway :)
 
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