Diggory vs. LULU vs. BookSurge

Prosperity7 · Mar 2, 2007

Which do you folks think is better, Digory, LULU or Booksurge?

On Amazon I got 10,372 results for Booksurge; Diggoty Press 75 results and LULU I got 6,237 results.

All of them show some 5 star ratings on Amazon.

I may be wrong, but I don't think any have a single best seller.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 2, 2007

What are your goals?

Prosperity7 · Mar 2, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
What are your goals?

To publish my non-fiction Christian Book. This is not an exercise in vanity for me.

Unimportant · Mar 2, 2007

Do *you* want to publish your book, or do you want a *commercial publisher* to publish your book? One's self publishing, the other's not.

Prosperity7 · Mar 2, 2007

Unimportant said:
Do *you* want to publish your book, or do you want a *commercial publisher* to publish your book? One's self publishing, the other's not.

I want which ever will get the widest distribution. As you can tell, I'm a complete novest to all this.

I'm think on send it to Bridge logos first and then ?

If I have to self publish to get the ball rolling, then I want to go the best way posoble.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 3, 2007

Self-publishing to "get the ball rolling" generally isn't a good plan.

Can you be more specific about your goals? Is it to hold a copy with your name on the cover in your hand? To give/sell a copy to about a hundred friends/family members? To sell from a table you rent a church fairs? To have it stocked in bookstores that you haven't personally visited? To sell as many copies as possible? To make as much money as possible? To have a full-time job as a book salesman?

Is your book fiction or non-fiction?

Prosperity7 · Mar 3, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
Self-publishing to "get the ball rolling" generally isn't a good plan.

Can you be more specific about your goals? Is it to hold a copy with your name on the cover in your hand? To give/sell a copy to about a hundred friends/family members? To sell from a table you rent a church fairs? To have it stocked in bookstores that you haven't personally visited? To sell as many copies as possible? To make as much money as possible? To have a full-time job as a book salesman?

Is your book fiction or non-fiction?

To help as many people as possible by selling as many copies as possible? The method of sales doesn't really matter to me as long as it is legal and ethical. Actually, I want my identity, as well as the identity of the characters, to be as unknown as is possible to protect the innocent and the guilty.

My book fiction or non-fiction?

veinglory · Mar 3, 2007

If you want to sell the most copies publication by a major press (not a printer) is definitely the way to go--a press that is routinely shelved in chain stores will sell a lot more than a self-POD in 99.9% of cases..

James D. Macdonald · Mar 3, 2007

Like Veinglory said, if you want to sell the greatest number possible, you need to go with a major press.

Go to your local Christian bookstore. Find books similar to yours. Write down the names of their publishers. Do the same in your local Barnes&Noble or Borders. Get copies of those publishers' guidelines. Follow them to the letter.

Good luck.

Prosperity7 · Mar 3, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
Like Veinglory said, if you want to sell the greatest number possible, you need to go with a major press.

Go to your local Christian bookstore. Find books similar to yours. Write down the names of their publishers. Do the same in your local Barnes&Noble or Borders. Get copies of those publishers' guidelines. Follow them to the letter.

Good luck.

Thank you for your information. I will check it out.

I noticed that no one seems to have much to say about Booksurge in spite of the 10,000+ listings that have on Amazon.com

James D. Macdonald · Mar 3, 2007

So they have a lot of listings on Amazon. What of it? PublishAmerica has twice as many, and AuthorHouse has more still. What's Booksurge's best-selling title? What does their average book sell? What does their typical book sell?

And please, put five-star ratings on Amazon out of your mind. They're meaningless.

Seriously, if I were going to self-publish, I'd self-publish. When you go with a vanity outfit you're still going to have to do all the promotion and marketing yourself, but you're only going to get a fraction of the return.

Mac H. · Mar 4, 2007

Prosperity7 said:
Actually, I want my identity, as well as the identity of the characters, to be as unknown as is possible to protect the innocent and the guilty.

In that case, no version of self-publishing (including the ones you mentioned) are likely to be any good.

With any kind of self publishing, YOU are the marketer. YOU are the sales person.

That kinda kills the whole anonymity thing ..

Mac

Prosperity7 · Mar 4, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
So they have a lot of listings on Amazon. What of it? PublishAmerica has twice as many, and AuthorHouse has more still. What's Booksurge's best-selling title? What does their average book sell? What does their typical book sell?

And please, put five-star ratings on Amazon out of your mind. They're meaningless.

Seriously, if I were going to self-publish, I'd self-publish. When you go with a vanity outfit you're still going to have to do all the promotion and marketing yourself, but you're only going to get a fraction of the return.

I don't know how to find out what is Booksurge's best-selling title, how much their average book sell for or what their typical book sells for. Do you know the answers or can you tell me how to obtain this information?

I read on self publishing and vanity publishing, but I guess I still don't see a distinct difference. Would you please simplify these terms for me?

Prosperity7 · Mar 4, 2007

Mac H. said:
In that case, no version of self-publishing (including the ones you mentioned) are likely to be any good.

With any kind of self publishing, YOU are the marketer. YOU are the sales person.

That kinda kills the whole anonymity thing ..

Mac

You are correct.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 4, 2007

First, for Booksurge, just go to Amazon, and sort their titles in best-selling order. You'll find their best-seller is a diet book.

While you're reserarching Booksurge, and before you get too excited by all the glowing reviews by "New York Times Best Selling Author Ellen Tanner Marsh," read this article.

Okay, the difference between self-publishing and vanity publishing:

Short version: in self-publishing you own the ISBN. In vanity publishing the publisher does.

In self-publishng you write the book, you design the book, you buy the ISBN, you hire the printer, you do the marketing, promotion, and distribution. You keep all the income. You keep the publication rights.

In vanity publishing you write the book, you give the publication rights to someone and pay that person do the book design, put on an ISBN, and do the printing. You still do the marketing, promotion, and distribution, you get a fraction of the income.

ResearchGuy · Mar 4, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
. . . Short version: in self-publishing you own the ISBN. In vanity publishing the publisher does.

In self-publishng you write the book, you design the book, you buy the ISBN, you hire the printer, you do the marketing, promotion, and distribution. You keep all the income. You keep the publication rights.

Good summary. To put it another way, the self-publisher is a business person whose business is publishing and whose products are the books he or she has written. (Some expand to take on books by others, in which case they morph into independent publishers without the "self" label.) I would add that self-publishers can, of course (and the meticulous ones do) hire book designers, editors, and proof readers, and may contract out distribution. They ordinarily (judging from my first-hand observations) play the key role themselves in marketing and promotion. Those with good products and business acumen can do very well at the publishing business, either as sole business or as a sideline to some other business (business consulting, for example). Those who lack some key element can lose their shirts.

Folks who just want to write are not candidates for self-publishing.

My opinions, but they reflect years of association with writer-publishers plus reading about the field.

--Ken

James D. Macdonald · Mar 4, 2007

And folks who are wonderful at business but who haven't written a readable book aren't candidates for self-publication either. You need to have both skills.

Toothpaste · Mar 4, 2007

I think the thing you aren't quite understanding yet Prosperity, is that the reason Booksurge etc has so many titles available is because anyone who wants to can publish a book with them. They are a self-publishing outfit and so as long as you have the money you can publish a book.

With the big name publishers, the ones that publish books like Harry Potter etc, they get thousands of submissions, but only accept a few books. Therefore they may have fewer books listed on Amazon. However those few books are found in bookstores etc, and have more chance to make money than the thousands of self-published books which don't have the opportunity of the same kind of exposure.

Fewer books published with a big house tends to be a sign of editors having taste and choosing books and putting their money to promote those few books. As opposed to a self-publishing outfit which makes money from the authors buying books or buying their services. There is nothing wrong with legit self-publishing, but as others here have already said, if you want your book in as many hands as possibly, then you should really try publishing houses first.

ResearchGuy · Mar 4, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
And folks who are wonderful at business but who haven't written a readable book aren't candidates for self-publication either. You need to have both skills.

Well, it has to be salable, not necessarily readable. It could be a collection of quotations, a directory or index of some sort, or even a repackaged public domain text, as long as you can successfully produce and market it.

We are talking products here. Books, bolts, enchilladas, gaskets, paintings, lawn chairs, crafts--whatever. Stuff made for sale. Folks get confused about words collected on paper (at least those who attribute some sort of ethereal value to words collected on paper, what Naida West has referred to as "the authorial mystique"). They are just another product. Some just have a longer shelf life than others. But even the vast majority of commercially published books are only in print for a few months, and then gone and forgotten. They are just products, and most of them (including the commercially published) ephemeral, this year's tens of thousands quickly replaced on the shelves and in the catalogues by next year's tens of thousands, in turn replaced by the following year's tens of thousands.

--Ken

Prosperity7 · Mar 4, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
First, for Booksurge, just go to Amazon, and sort their titles in best-selling order. You'll find their best-seller is a diet book.

While you're reserarching Booksurge, and before you get too excited by all the glowing reviews by "New York Times Best Selling Author Ellen Tanner Marsh," read this article.

Okay, the difference between self-publishing and vanity publishing:

Short version: in self-publishing you own the ISBN. In vanity publishing the publisher does.

In self-publishng you write the book, you design the book, you buy the ISBN, you hire the printer, you do the marketing, promotion, and distribution. You keep all the income. You keep the publication rights.

In vanity publishing you write the book, you give the publication rights to someone and pay that person do the book design, put on an ISBN, and do the printing. You still do the marketing, promotion, and distribution, you get a fraction of the income.

Thank you for the great info.

Prosperity7 · Mar 4, 2007

ResearchGuy said:
Well, it has to be salable, not necessarily readable. It could be a collection of quotations, a directory or index of some sort, or even a repackaged public domain text, as long as you can successfully produce and market it.

We are talking products here. Books, bolts, enchilladas, gaskets, paintings, lawn chairs, crafts--whatever. Stuff made for sale. Folks get confused about words collected on paper (at least those who attribute some sort of ethereal value to words collected on paper, what Naida West has referred to as "the authorial mystique"). They are just another product. Some just have a longer shelf life than others. But even the vast majority of commercially published books are only in print for a few months, and then gone and forgotten. They are just products, and most of them (including the commercially published) ephemeral, this year's tens of thousands quickly replaced on the shelves and in the catalogues by next year's tens of thousands, in turn replaced by the following year's tens of thousands.

--Ken

Thanks for all of your insights.

Ralyks · Mar 25, 2007

James D. Macdonald said:
Seriously, if I were going to self-publish, I'd self-publish. When you go with a vanity outfit you're still going to have to do all the promotion and marketing yourself, but you're only going to get a fraction of the return.

These are the disadvantages of using a vanity POD vs. self-publishing. However, there are some advantages to using a vanity POD vs. self-publishing: (1) Time--i.e. you do not have to spend time designing your cover, obtaining an ISBN, getting listed at online bookstores, and fulfilling and shipping the orders yourself, and (2) Risk--i.e. you do not have to risk nearly as much upfront capital. So the best route for you depends on your goals, your personality, and your confidence in your ability to sell your book.

I made a small profit with a vanity POD. If I had self-published instead, I would certainly have made a greater profit, probably two times as much or more. For me, however, the time investment and the stress involved in figuring out the logistics of self-publishing would not have been worth the additional profit.

Prosperity7 · Mar 26, 2007

skylarburris said:
These are the disadvantages of using a vanity POD vs. self-publishing. However, there are some advantages to using a vanity POD vs. self-publishing: (1) Time--i.e. you do not have to spend time designing your cover, obtaining an ISBN, getting listed at online bookstores, and fulfilling and shipping the orders yourself, and (2) Risk--i.e. you do not have to risk nearly as much upfront capital. So the best route for you depends on your goals, your personality, and your confidence in your ability to sell your book.

I made a small profit with a vanity POD. If I had self-published instead, I would certainly have made a greater profit, probably two times as much or more. For me, however, the time investment and the stress involved in figuring out the logistics of self-publishing would not have been worth the additional profit.

Please help me to understand. Do any self publishing printers design covers or do drop shipping or is this only done by PODs. It seems you make a distinction between POD and Self Publishing in that PODs are vanity oriented while PODs aren't vanity oriented. Is this right or am I misunderstanding?

Ralyks · Mar 26, 2007

Prosperity7 said:
Please help me to understand. Do any self publishing printers design covers or do drop shipping or is this only done by PODs. It seems you make a distinction between POD and Self Publishing in that PODs are vanity oriented while PODs aren't vanity oriented. Is this right or am I misunderstanding?

If you self-publish, you can hire someone to design your cover. You can then pay a printer to print it. You can then hire someone else to do your distribution and order fulfillment. Or you can do one or more of these things yourself. If you "hire" a vanity POD, they generally do all of the design, ISBN assignment, distribution, and order fulfillment themselves in one single package for one set price.

I was speaking specifically of using a VANITY POD (i.e. a POD printer you pay to publish your work) vs. self-publishing. Not all POD's are vanities. If you self-publish, it is more work and time for you than if you pay a single vanity POD printer for these services. It also costs considerably more to self-publish than to purchase a package of services from a vanity POD. However, you get 100% of the profits from your book if you self-publish. A vanity POD takes part of the profits in addition to your initial service fees.

CaoPaux · Mar 26, 2007

Writer Beware has a great explanation of how printing method differs from business model:

http://www.sfwa.org/beware/printondemand.html

http://www.sfwa.org/beware/vanitypublishers.html

Diggory vs. LULU vs. BookSurge

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