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Chryssie
02-28-2007, 04:20 AM
Site for illegally sharing books: http://www.pro-board.com/index.php?proboard=romanceebooks&

They know it's wrong, hence this message from an admin:

NEW RULE FOR OUR OWN SAFETY, read this or we ban u! jk ;)

To keep private the information that we are trading due to legal issues and consequently, to keep this forum going for as long as we can, we have come up with a new rule:

No live/clickable links please.

Any live link we give can track us back here. If that happens, this forum can be closed anytime.

Since they seem nervous, just posting this message might be enough to shut this one down. But if not, here's a list of authors whose books are available on the site--if you know how to contact any of them, you might want to get in touch and see what their lawyers can do. They also have over a dozen Ellora's Cave books (mostly anthologies) listed in their miscellaneous section.

A
Adele Ashworth
Alexandra Benedict
Alison Kent
Amanda Ashley
Amanda Quick
Amy J. Fetzer
Ann Maxwell
Anne Ashley
Anne Bishop
Anne Mather
Anne Stuart
Autumn Dawn

B
Barbara Delinsky
Barbara Metzger
Betty Neels
Beverly Barton
Brenda Hiatt
Brenda Joyce

C
Cameron Dean
Carla Kelly
Carly Phillips
Catherine Coulter
Catherine Mann
Cathy Maxwell
Celeste Anwar
Celeste Bradley
Charlaine Harris
Cherry Adair
Cheryl Bolen
Cheryl Holt
Christina Dodd
Christine Feehan
Claire Delacroix
Connie Brockway
Connie Mason
Constance O'Day-Flannery

D
Daisy Dexter Dobbs
Dara Joy
Dawn Thompson
Deirdre Martin
Diana Palmer
Donna Fletcher
Donna Kaufman

E
Edith Layton
Eileen Wilks
Elizabeth Boyle
Elizabeth Hoyt
Elizabeth Lowell
Elizabeth Thornton
Elizabeth Vaughan
Eloisa James
Emma Holly
Erin McCarthy

F
Fiona Brand

G
Gaelen Foley
Gena Showalter
Geralyn Dawson


H
Hannah Howell
Helen Bianchin

I
Iris Johansen

J
Jackie Ivie
Jacquie D'Alessandro
Jaid Black
Jane Feather
Janelle Denison
Janette Evanovich
Jayne Castle
Jen Holling
Jennifer Ashley
Jennifer Crusie
Jennifer Dunne
Jessica Hall
Jill Barnett
Jillian Hunter
J.D. Robb
Jo Ann Ferguson
Jo Beverley
Jo Goodman
Joan Wolf
J.R. Ward
Jude Deveraux
Judith Glad
Judith Ivory
Judith McNaught
Julia James
Julia London
Julia Quinn
Julianne MacLean
Julie Anne Long
Julie Beard
Julie Garwood
Justine Davis

K
Karen Robards
Karen Chance
Karen Hawkins
Karen Marie Moning
Karyn Monk
Kasey Michaels
Kat Martin
Kathleen E. Woodiwiss
Kathryn Smith
Katie MacAlister
Kay Hooper
Kerrelyn Sparks
Kinley MacGregor
Kresley Cole
Kristine Grayson

L
Laura Kinsale
Laura Matthews
Laurie Grant
Lesley Lafoy
Linda Francis Lee
Linda Howard
Lisa Kleypas
Liz Carlyle
Lora Leigh
Loretta Chase
Lori Foster
Lorie Handeland
Lorraine Heath
Lydia Joyce
Lynn Viehl
Lynsay Sands

M
Madeline Hunter
Margaret Evans Porter
Marilyn Grall
Marion Chesney
Marjorie M. Liu
Mary Balogh
Mary Jo Putney
Mary McBride
Maureen Child
Meagan McKinney
Melanie George
Michele Hauf
Miranda Jarrett
Miranda Lee

N
Nan Ryan
Nancy Warren
Nicole Jordan
Nina Bangs
Nora Roberts

OP
P.C. Cast
Pamela Clare
Paula Detmer Riggs
Paula Marshall
Penny Jordan

QR
Rachel Caine
Rachel Gibson
Rebecca Hagan Lee
Rebecca York
Rexanne Becnel
Ronda Thompson
Rosemary Rogers
Ruth Langan

S
Samantha James
Sandra Brown
Sandra Hill
Sara Craven
Shana Abe
Shana Galen
Sharon Mignerey
Sherri King
Sherrilyn Kenyon
Stephanie James
Stephanie Laurens
Stobie Piel
Susan Andersen
Susan Caroll
Susan Elizabeth Phillips
Susan Johnson
Susan Krinard
Susan Mallery
Susan Sizemore
Susan Squires
Susan Wiggs
Suzanne Brockman
Suzanne Enoch
Suzanne Robinson

T
Teresa Medeiros
Terri Brisbin
Tori Carrington
Tracey Warren

UV
Vicki Lewis Thompson
Vickie Taylor
Victoria Alexander
Virginia Henley

Tsu Dho Nimh
02-28-2007, 07:45 AM
I have notified the site's admin that there seems to be a bit of piracy happening ... it may do the trick.

Knowing that a publisher the size of Harlequin is gunning for them should be scary.

Harris
02-28-2007, 03:17 PM
Another illegal site. I don't know what to do about it so I'll post it here.
http://www.binsearch.info/browse.php?bg=alt.binaries.ebooks.romantica&server=2&s=0

Robyn
02-28-2007, 06:12 PM
Thanks for the info. I posted the info on another site for romance writers to give them a heads up.

FergieC
02-28-2007, 06:45 PM
What's the difference between an illegal book sharing site and a legal one?

Tsu Dho Nimh
02-28-2007, 07:01 PM
What's the difference between an illegal book sharing site and a legal one?

Legal ones are do9ing it with the permission of whoever holds the rights. Go to http://www.baen.com/library/ and read the page. Baen has the full permission of the authors to post the books there.

The sites mentioned here are not affiliated with the publishers or authors.

FergieC
02-28-2007, 07:14 PM
Oh, I think I'm just being really dumb. Is this "sharing" as in E-books?

I use a couple of book swapping sites, where when you've finished with a book, you can give it away and get other books in return. As far as I'm aware, they're legal (it's just second hand books for postage cost).

If this is "sharing" as in putting them up electronically, I see the difference

:e2hammer:

Gillhoughly
02-28-2007, 07:37 PM
I sent notice to seven on that list who I know, including my agent who reps for some of them.


Grrr.

Josie
02-28-2007, 08:43 PM
This is interesting.

So they are electronically giving each other books to read...I can see why on the internet that would really hurt a writer. Making it public is an ouch.

The author giving rights to this is unlikely, isn't it? Is someone making money with this? Is this a scam? I'm confused. These are all well known names to me.

:Shrug: ???

Gillhoughly
02-28-2007, 08:59 PM
The author giving rights to this is unlikely, isn't it?

I just got emails back from 3 of the writers, and no, they did not give their permission for this. They have notified their publishers, and one lodged a complaint directly to the server.


Is someone making money with this?

The authors made a percentage of the "cover" price when the e-copy was first sold, and the publisher has to trust that the buyer will respect copyright law and not post the book on forums like esnips. Clearly certain people are failing that trust.



Is this a scam? I'm confused.

That makes two of us!

The posters have NOTHING to gain from it. Maybe they just want attention or they're bored or they think e-books are too expensive and that "sharing" is okay since they aren't making money off of it. I've seen all kinds of lame excuses. In rare cases they honestly did not know that it is illegal. In others, certain trolls know it's wrong and don't care.

Whatever, we pretty much have to police the industry ourselves and let the neos know that this is not the Done Thing.

So far I've been lucky and to my knowledge no e-copy of any of my titles has been posted, but I AM angry on behalf of my friends who are getting ripped off. They worked hard to get those words out of their heads. It's just wrong that they are cheated from getting a fair return for their work!

FergieC
02-28-2007, 09:05 PM
It a similar problem to that the music industry has suffered with peer-to-peer sharing, I suppose, and a difficult one to combat. For one thing, you do rely on trust; for another, with both books and records, people are quite used to buying a book, reading it, then passing it onto someone else.

Trouble with the internet is that when you pass it on to an internet site, you're making it public. On the plus side, so few people yet want to read e-books it probably won't to the authors a huge amount of damage (unlike with illegal music). On the downside, they'll need to figure some way to combat it if E-books ever do become popular.

Stacia Kane
02-28-2007, 09:28 PM
I do wish I could understand the "Nobody reads ebooks" comments I keep hearing today. Ellora's Cave didn't make millions of dollars in sales because nobody reads ebooks. These sites don't exist because nobody reads ebooks.

Popeyesays
02-28-2007, 10:27 PM
If I buy a hard copy book, read it and give it away or sell it, I have not committed a crime. The book is my chattel and I can do what the heck I want with it.

If I take my book, go to Kinko's or a self-serve Xerox machine, make a copy and either keep or give away that copy, or give way the book because now I have a xerox of it, I have just broken the law.

The book is my chattel, I do not have the right under any circumstancfes to print my own copies of it.

Same with e-books. I could send my copy to someone else, or even sell it, as long as I delete the book from my hard drive.

regards,
Scott

Harris
03-01-2007, 12:07 AM
I don't believe many authors have a problem with someone sending an ebook to a friend to help them discover a new author. These file sharing networks give limitless copies and could seriously hurt a publisher and author. never mind the fact that there are no age restrictions on these sites.

I also think that these sorts of places hurt the ebook industry growth.

FergieC
03-01-2007, 02:50 PM
I also think that these sorts of places hurt the ebook industry grow.

I'm not entirely sure about that, although I disagree completely with the sites. But the illegal sites that sprung up for music were exactly what the industry needed to give it a kick up the arse and show it that people did want to download music from the internet, and they had to change with the times.

It's also completely re-invigorated the music industry from a nadir it was in when it only wanted to bring out really popular, "bestselling", money spinning bands and wasn't willing to invest in new talent. It's brought a lot of new bands through and shaken things up, and the music scene is far better now from the point of view of music fans.

So far from stopping the e-book industry grow, if it turns out publishers and writers are losing a lot of money this way, it might actually give more impetus to its development.

Chryssie
03-01-2007, 04:20 PM
The romanceebooks (http://www.pro-board.com/index.php?proboard=romanceebooks&act=idx) forum is now closed.

Harris
03-01-2007, 04:24 PM
You might be right. I'm not so sure considering the industry doesn't like change and the idea of providing something so easy for people to abuse could cost them money.

Some people believe that these type thieves would never spend the money for an ebook anyway. They only want what they can get for free.

Harris
03-01-2007, 04:24 PM
The romanceebooks (http://www.pro-board.com/index.php?proboard=romanceebooks&act=idx) forum is now closed.

Woohoo!

Robyn
03-01-2007, 05:53 PM
YES! Ok that was quick. I'm happy though.

FergieC
03-01-2007, 07:43 PM
You might be right. I'm not so sure considering the industry doesn't like change and the idea of providing something so easy for people to abuse could cost them money.

That was exactly the same as the record industry, who had to play massive catch up when they finally woke up to the fact that you can't actually stop change happening: when technology changes, you deal with it, or you become like the dinosaurs.


Some people believe that these type thieves would never spend the money for an ebook anyway. They only want what they can get for free.

Again, exactly what the music business said. In fact, the people most likely to pass on music "illegally" (ie taping for others, then sharing on the internet) are the genuine music lovers who buy most music. The industry was kind of ignoring them anyway by reducing the range of music available in shops, and catering only to the mass market. The internet was fantastic for the real music lovers, because it opened up a whole new world of music to them; they could now find their own bands.

The bands who became really successful - eg Franz Ferdinand, The Arctic Monkeys etc (I only know about UK, sorry) - were the ones who leapt right in and gave away their music for free to start with. There is a real joy in sharing music (and books - if you love a book, you tell people, you pass it on). The joy for real fans is in that rather than going into a shop and passing over the money. It doesn't mean those people are all criminals - they're passionate, they crave a lot of the product they love, and yes, if they can get loads of it for free as a sample, they will do, but they'll still buy as well. What they found was that bands weren't actually losing out - if you can download something for free, you'll download something you wouldn't have bought. That might lead onto sales you'd never have made otherwise.

The music industry shot itself in the foot by treating the real music lovers as criminals while similtaneously ignoring what they really wanted and catering only to the mass market, and they're paying the price now. If the publishing industry is smart, they'll look at the music industry and try not to copy the mistakes it made. Just assuming most readers are potential thiefs and changes in technology must be stopped won't help them at all.

giftedrhonda
03-01-2007, 07:46 PM
I think some musicians have compromised by allowing their live performances to be traded for free, unless that live performance was put on an official CD. It gives listeners the flavor of the musicians, but life performances are completely different than ones done in the studio. So the liver performances don't replace the experience of the studio CDs.

I wonder if authors could figure out something clever in that vein, if they wanted to try doing the same concept (allowing some material to be distributed for free, like short stories...?)

FergieC
03-01-2007, 07:53 PM
To be honest, a lot of distribution these days is effectively giving away the book for free. I mean, if a published author is lucky enough to get their book featured in a book club, for example, they will sell loads, but at such a low price there'll be almost no royalties for it.

If - when starting out - an author can give away an E-book (which is essentially free to create anyway) and that leads to readers, I don't see the problem. Readers leads to word of mouth, leads hopefully to sales in the longer term...

James D. Macdonald
03-01-2007, 07:55 PM
Well, look at this story:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/internet/02/28/book.browsing.reut/index.html


NEW YORK (Reuters) -- The dusty world of book publishing has taken a step into cyberspace as Random House and HarperCollins letting customers browse books online.

Random House, whose writers include Danielle Steel and Norman Mailer, said on Tuesday it will let consumers search and browse through more than 5,000 of its titles on the Internet through a new service called Insight.

The story continues from that point.

James D. Macdonald
03-01-2007, 07:58 PM
Oh -- and listen: there's really good money in book club sales. Yes, the royalties per book are lower, but they sell tons of the things.

FergieC
03-01-2007, 08:06 PM
Oh -- and listen: there's really good money in book club sales. Yes, the royalties per book are lower, but they sell tons of the things.


I guess that's true if you're selling a lot. The only person I've heard it from was a fairly new writer who probably wasn't selling huge amounts. He saw the sales figures from the book club and they were huge to him, so he expected a large royalty cheque and was really disappointed with a few pounds when it came through! But the increase in sales led to an increase in sales, so he was happy enough in the end.

I wasn't knocking book clubs at all, just saying giving things away free or more cheaply isn't necessarily a bad thing when you're starting out.

veinglory
03-01-2007, 08:13 PM
And it isn't necessarily a good thing. In fact, as done by usenet and filesharing groups it does tend to be a bad thing. Promotional give-aways=good, shoplifting=bad. Context is everything.

James D. Macdonald
03-01-2007, 08:21 PM
Bookclubs have been around for a long time -- longer than bookstores outside of major metropolitan areas, for example -- and are responsible for about a third of the market. I've had a couple of my books picked up by bookclubs, and it was very nice indeed.

Electronic ... hard to say. I'm debating putting my entire backlist up on my webpage in full text editions. Partly it's a storage thing, and partly it's because I no longer have readable electronic versions of many of my early novels (written on an Atari 800 and stored on 5.25" floppies).

I'm also debating putting my backlist onto Fictionwise.com -- and part of what's slowing me down is their demand for exclusive electronic rights. I'm not sure that "exclusive" for a reprint is a reasonable request.

Roger J Carlson
03-01-2007, 10:33 PM
Baen (http://www.baen.com/)has been allowing free downloads of many of it's back-listed books for several years (6?) now. Prime Palaver #6 by Eric Flint (http://www.baen.com/library/) explains why they do it. Interesting reading.

Gillhoughly
03-01-2007, 10:55 PM
I just got a reply from the esnips copyright infringement person, and apparently the specific material I cited in my complaint mail was disabled.

That phrasing in the mail tells me that there are MORE books posted that are still up for an illegal download.

We should expect that other forums will also drag their feet and only react when it's shoved under their nose.

May I suggest we all do weekly sweeps for such items? It's clear they will not enforce their own TOS unless someone brings it to their direct attention.

Here is the esnips address for reporting this sort of thing:

Yaron Alkolombre
Copyright Service Representative

yaron@esnips.com (yaron@esnips.com)

He responded within 24 hours, and I thanked him for his fast response. We can be polite, but persistant!

I have still not yet heard from the other sites.

Tsu Dho Nimh
03-01-2007, 11:58 PM
Electronic ... hard to say. I'm debating putting my entire backlist up on my webpage in full text editions. Partly it's a storage thing, and partly it's because I no longer have readable electronic versions of many of my early novels (written on an Atari 800 and stored on 5.25" floppies).

I'm also debating putting my backlist onto Fictionwise.com -- and part of what's slowing me down is their demand for exclusive electronic rights. I'm not sure that "exclusive" for a reprint is a reasonable request.

Ask Baen.com to host them.

And I might be able to help you get the stuff off the floppies.