I'm frustrated!

Ladies and gentlemen of AW:

I have a few tiny bills I need to pay off... ::Insert panhandling Smiley::

Ghost writers.

Yeah, nowadays someone farts, it lands on the news, next thing you know there's a movie deal in the works and the hard back is due out in Spring.


I get gas, no one cares.

As toothpaste said, in most cases they use a ghost writer.

But who knows? Maybe some of them were just talented enough to pull off an autobiography. I mean who determined they had no writing skills? Was it in their bio up on IMDB? Great actor, no writing skills.

Maybe they had the skills but just never saw any reason to pursue that as a career. I mean this isn't the greatest paying gig unless you're Steven King or JK Rowling.



By the way midnight, I care. Because we've run out of air freshener.

I wonder sometimes, ya know. I mean, when I hear how some actors are just spotted on the street I wonder if it's true or if it's just a catchy story. Really? You found her working at a cheese shop? I don't believe it. The same with writers who just suddenly sit down one day and write a book. They either have a hidden talent or they're lying about their qualifications. Or it could be a ghostwriter. Either way, I'm skeptical. It's an oft repeated story and I doubt it's true.

Did any of that make sense? I have a really bad headache and I'm not sure how coherent I am.

MidnightMuse said:

Yeah, nowadays someone farts, it lands on the news, next thing you know there's a movie deal in the works and the hard back is due out in Spring.


I get gas, no one cares.

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I care. But don't light a match. Please.

Shadow_Ferret said:

As toothpaste said, in most cases they use a ghost writer.

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So how do they find/use/pay a ghostwriter? Do professional ghostwriters work "on spec?" (work on the book for a percentage of sales, instead of a fixed payment)

What does it take to be a ghostwriter? I (IMHO) have a good command of English grammar, spelling and word usage. Would I have to work well with quirky people?

benbradley said:

Would I have to work well with quirky people?

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Well heck, you hang around here, don't you?

Actors really are just discovered. My friend went in to be an extra, and because the director thought he reminded him of himself, gave him the lead. There's one more doctor lost to the world of showbiz (and I am totally jealous as I have been working on this acting thing since I was like 11, bastard).

I think some of those writers can probably write, and the rest have ghost writers. It isn't fair, but luckily there is still room for the rest of us!

I get fucstrated as well (yes, I know: that's a portamanteau of "f*cking frustrated"). At the risk of sounding like a third grader, it simply isn't fair. Real writers bust their ass getting a manuscript done and get rejected *whining* because it won't sell. Bill Clinton, Madonna, Britney Spears, and the like sit down and write (write meaning "hire a ghost writer") a book, and they don't even have to query agents. They just say their name. Or, a book comes out that is so-so but offers plenty of artificial shock value (re: The Da Vinci Code) and now the author can mint their own money.

But look for the silver lining. Crap sells. Even if your manuscript is horrid (and if you're a poster here, it's probably not) it will sell...eventually.

Why? Because as a whole, consumers aren't keen on quality. They just want pure escapism. Not that there's anything wrong with pure escapism mind you, so long as it's done well. Sadly, most of it's not done well; it's just marketed right.

MidnightMuse said:

I get gas, no one cares.

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What does fueling up your car have to do with all this?


On a more serious note, I would say basically the same thing Toothpaste said. Ghost Writers, pure and simple. I think Jenna has ghostwritten for a couple people, if I'm not mistaken. I guess it's a fairly common practice.

MidnightMuse said:

I get gas, no one cares.

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I care.

I just wanted you to know that.






Mostly because I want to know when to leave the room...

Uh, accountants with no taste who buy the gimmick? Sorry if some still thing "good writing" means anything, but from newspapers to books, there are a lot of things published today that aren't well written at all. Some even make it to the best seller lists.

I'm not being bitter or cynical but am just making an observation. Quality writing is not the key right now. Compelling or cutsie stories (true or not), gimmicks that will get that quick flash from the public are the things that seem to appeal. This is one reason I think Ebooks, in the next ten years, may be the key for what I call the "bread and butter" writers. The writers who just create lovely, solid stories that can't catch the attention of the agents and editors who have to answer to their own accounting offices. The sort of books that came out in dozens every year in the early and mid-20th centuries. You know, the ones you can still find in the library under "general fiction" or on dusty shelves in the used book stores.

Have any of you read Warwick Deeping, James Hilton or Neville Shute? Beautiful, crafted stories of ordinary people but not show stoppers, not the latest "gotcha". I've often wondered if these fine story tellers could even get an agent to request a partial these days.

writerterri said:

Don't you have to send in an completely polished ms with no mistakes?

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No.

Okay, a few quick responses...

Nonfiction is typically sold based on a book proposal, not an entire manuscript.

In the case of stories that end up on the news and such, sometimes even a proposal isn't necessary-- sometimes the publisher will contact the person and say, "We want to publish your story."

I'll tell you how I usually work as a ghostwriter.

There are a few agents and editors who know me well and refer clients to me often. They rep people who are not necessarily writers, but are celebrities or experts in some area. So, for example...

1. An agent read a front page article in the NY Times about bullying, and he liked the quotes from a guy who called himself the "Bully Coach." The agent contacted him and asked if he had thought about writing a book about bullying. The man was interested, but not really a writer-- so they worked on a draft of a book proposal, then hired me to finish the proposal and be the ghostwriter if/when the book sold. I was paid a fee for the proposal, and we had a contract that stipulated what I would be paid from the future advance and royalties. This is a leap of faith because they don't know what kind of advance and royalties they'll get at that point, so they're making the assumption that it'll be high enough to cover my fees and leave something for the expert and the agent.

2. In other cases, I'm brought in after the proposal has already sold and they know what kind of deal they have. The agent and expert have muddled through the proposal together, or hired a writer just to do a proposal, and sold it on that basis. The publisher generally knows they're going to use a ghostwriter-- or, in one particular case, the experts didn't think they needed a ghostwriter, but the editor insisted they did (and recommended me). She liked the subject matter and the idea of the book very much based on the proposal they turned in, but the writing was not professional. So she made them an offer contingent on their hiring a ghostwriter. Then they know that they have an advance of, say, $50,000, and can negotiate with me to figure out what's fair for both parties. (In some cases, I get a flat fee only; in others, I share in the royalties. In some cases, I get a cover credit, and in others, I don't.)

3. In other cases, I'm hired to write the proposal with an *option* to write the book itself, if we can agree on terms to be decided later (depending on what kind of deal the agent can get for the book).

In most cases, the $$ is not coming out of the expert/celeb's pocket, except possibly for the book proposal. They get paid by the publisher, then cut me a check for my percentage of that money. In a couple of cases, I'm listed and treated as a co-writer, and the publisher just sends us split checks (sending me my portion, and the expert/celeb his/her portion, usually through the agent).

But, no, professional ghostwriters don't work on spec except in very rare instances (I might do a proposal on spec if I know darn well it's going to sell for big bucks, and if I have a contract with the expert/celeb stating that I am to be the writer for the book, with minimum fees outlined in the contract).

Darn. Gotta run. I'll try to check back later and finish my thoughts.

Azura Skye said:

I care. But don't light a match. Please.

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My goodness, it's dark in here... [boom]

I read the book about the lady who drove up alot of credit card debt and had a website to have people pay it off for her. She was a TV producer in NYC. She had an IVY league education and writing the book probably wasn't that difficult for her.

She had a spending addiction. The book was semi-interesting, but I didn't feel sorry for her at all. First : she came from a middle class family and flat out shopped at Barney's too much. I'm talking Manola Blahnik shoes and Burberry coats. And then, she had strangers pay off her credit cards.

Boo.

Oh, and this lady probably had some pretty good sources in the publishing industry to get her book published. She was a producer for the Jenny Jones talk show, I'm sure she knew someone.

Bill Clinton, Madonna, Britney Spears, and the like sit down and write (write meaning "hire a ghost writer") a book, and they don't even have to query agents. They just say their name. Or, a book comes out that is so-so but offers plenty of artificial shock value (re: The Da Vinci Code) and now the author can mint their own money.

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Bill Clinton isn't a great example of someone who just sat down and wrote a book without good reason. He was a two-term US president, for starters. And, super intelligent. He is a word fanatic, btw. Many people do not know that Clinton is a crossword puzzle addict. Our presidents should be able to sit down and write books, right? Of course, reading them would be nice, too, but don't. get. me. started.


And Madonna is college educated, and supposedly a very bright woman. Sure, she is hogging up more than her share of fame and fortune, but she's qualified to write a book.

Britney and Paris Hilton are excellent examples of dildos who should not write books.

The Bachelorette is a writer now too. She wrote a book on how to be happy with out a man, or something like that.

Tela

Usually ghostwriters do a decent job--not always, but if the book is HORRIBLE, don't assume it's a ghostwriter. Could've just been such bad prose that even a good editor couldn't save it.

I don't feel sore that bad writers get their books published if they're famous or whatever. It just inspires me to write better because I'm not famous and the writing does count.

It's just one more proof of the old maxim, 'Story trumps all.'

Readers want, and therefore publishers buy, interesting stories, no matter how they are originally written. Whether they're about ordinary Joes (or Joelenes) to whom something extraordinary has happened, or 'celebrities' whom an unhealthy proportion of the population seems to care about these days (for often unaccountable reasons), there's a ready market for them. And if the subjects are barely literate, so what? There's no shortage of writing/editorial talent available for hire who can craft the rough clay into something that resembles an acceptable dinner service, if not always the finest porcelain.

It's the same in the popular music industry. Not many bands are proficient in music theory and notation, for instance, but as long as they can pump out great songs that people want to buy, there's plenty of skilled help available in the form of arrangers/producers/session musicians who can polish up their basic efforts into something better.

Which readers want good stories? Every one of them.

Which readers want good writing? Most of them.

Which readers care more about good writing than exceptional stories? Not many. Most want both.

Which readers care about who actually put the right words together in the right sequence for the finished product? None, except for writers.

I'd advise any writer against harbouring even the slightest feeling of envy. It's very corrosive, and counter-productive. Far better to divert that emotional energy into conceiving and executing a cracker of a story that no agent or acquisitions editor can resist. If you do that, I can guarantee that minor transgressions in submission format and imperfect use of the subjunctive will not stand in the way of your being published.