I need to understand something.

farfromfearless · Jan 22, 2007

MODERATOR'S NOTE:

The following thread has been moved from the Atheism and Non-Theistic Spiritual Writing forum. The Moderators believe it is better suited to the Christian Forum. The reason it was moved here is because the original poster asked a question about Christians and their habits. On the whole it is a good discussion that I think should continue.

The Atheism and Non-Theistic Spiritual Writing forum plays much the same role as the Christian Board. It is a place where people who do not believe in God can gather with like-minded people. So please understand that the first 53 posts were written in that context.

The Ground Rules for continuing the discussion is that everyone is free to join as long as it is done respectfully. Let's not look at this in an adversarial light, but as a genuine opportunity to build understanding.

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I've been following a couple threads lately on this forum and on other forum where I see the non-secular and the secular world collide in terms of opinions regarding literature and such. One of the things that I have noticed alot of is authors of the non-secular breed who tend to couch their opinions and thoughts in religious rehetoric under secular threads. What the heck is up with every christian spouting scripture in their responses? Does it make them feel superior to quote phrases (largely out of context) to the layman who might not have evre picked up a bible? Everytime I see a posting like that I want to scream, "What bubble are you living in?!"

It's complete ignorance to me - not only that, it's condescending and rude in my opinion.

I was a missionary for the better part of my life and one of the things that's a big no-no in ministries is taking the offensive with scripture. That is: to preach from the pulpit. It IS possible to integrate and live in the secular world and communicate peaceably without the need to armor one's self with scripture. The might as well throw up a big picket fence around themselves with neon-light saying "christians only!"

The worst part is that these authors react with surprise when they're met with hostility.

So I really want to know, after all the candle-waving, hymn-singing, and scripture-quoting is done, do ministries forget to teach this one aspect of humilty or whatever it is? I'm at a loss because I certainly never had the urge to beat someone over the head with my bible, let alone walk into a croweded room and act with such ignorance.

farfromfearless · Jan 22, 2007

Good point, I forgot about that particular forum as I don't haunt it often - how do I move this thread to there?

Sean D. Schaffer · Jan 22, 2007

Speaking as one of those who used to act that way, I can say that for me, it was fear that drove me to quote Scripture all the time. I thought if I did not have my Biblical knowledge handy, G-d would somehow be displeased with me.

Also I think there is some ignorance involved. At least in my own case, I always thought of the Bible as authoritative to the point no one would ever dare question it. This misconception could be part of the reason so many people do use Scripture when trying to push a point or when trying to convince someone their particular belief system is the correct one.

But most of all I think fear is a major thing. That is also one of the reasons so many Christians try to over-evangelize so much that people get overtly tired of hearing it. Some have been told--as I was, when I was a Christian--that G-d would be displeased with them and even convict them of murder if they don't give people Scripture all the time. It is, IMO, one of the horrible downfalls of much of the Christian religion and how it treats its people.

farfromfearless · Jan 22, 2007

I come from a pretty stringent Christian upbringing, and though I've since parted ways with that part of my life, I still find value in the things that I've learned. So every time I come across someone in life who's completely over the top evangelizing without regard to whom, where and how, it drives me nuts. In fact it doesn't matter if they're Christian or whatever, I've found so many folks who have half a dozen bits of religious literature ready to quote for any given situation. It's like a swiss army knife for the non-seculars. You can't argue with faith, that is the fundamental flaw with all faith-based discussions and arguments.

Angelinity · Jan 22, 2007

yeah, preaching does turn me off -- however, i do not usually blame the preacher for using those tools available to him/her at the time...

i feel that we each are on a personal quest -- understanding our selves and how we fit in the scheme of things... using 'mantras' (for lack of a better term) that might strenghten our own belief that we know who/where/why we are... 'positioning' our selves within the landscape of creation -- as we see it.

it's a learning process that takes us through the journey of life, and we use whatever 'crutches' within reach that can help steady our progress.

whether we are aware or not, i think we all use some kind of 'mantra', whether it be scripture, an 'image' permanently etched on the front of mind, something we heard somewhere that rang 'true' at the time...or whatever...

farfromfearless · Jan 22, 2007

Spiritual journey or not, I don't think its necessary to strengthen one's faith by constantly talking in scripture. A personal mantra I can understand, but to sit down and have a meaningful conversation with someone who doesn't seem to have an original though and supplements it with random quotes is quite aggravating. I just wonder where they get this whole idea from.

nancy02664 · Jan 23, 2007

I tend to get annoyed when people quote scripture, for many of the reasons already mentioned. I'm just not interested in what religious texts have to say, and I resent it when religious people assume that I am or that I should be.

Meerkat · Jan 23, 2007

Heck, I'm a Buddhist, and I think the greatest thing ever written was Luke 17:21...."The kingdom of God lies within you."

He just missed the "in six words" contest by one, though.

JIMBOS · Jan 23, 2007

Uh Oh...this is a dangerous thread. Think I'll move on!

Sweetlebee · Jan 23, 2007

Actually, I'm finding the discussion quite civil. If it continues to be, everyone can learn. This is the first I've seen fear of God as an explanation of what motivates people to preach. It's an interesting concept to explore.

farfromfearless · Jan 23, 2007

Well here's a good example to illustrate the difference: When you talk to your pastor, minister, or spiritual leader, you expect them to throw in the occasional nugget of wisdom - you might expect it from a friend who may be deeply religious but it does get tedious when it's the ONLY way they tend to talk. Kind of makes for a one-sided conversation if all you have to contribute is "yeah, nice quote - where's it from?"

farfromfearless · Jan 23, 2007

I always wondered what publishers would categorize the bible were it written today - "Literary Fiction", "Historical Fiction". etc. ?

Sean D. Schaffer · Jan 23, 2007

farfromfearless said:
I always wondered what publishers would categorize the bible were it written today - "Literary Fiction", "Historical Fiction". etc. ?

Perhaps New Age/Self-Help.

Sean D. Schaffer · Jan 23, 2007

I think another thing that many Christians, (specifically, because I was raised as one--I'm using an example I personally know) have a problem with this issue is relevancy to the conversation at hand. In my own case, I thought the Bible was relevant to every portion of life and therefore every conversation. I am only now, within the last few months, learning the idea of relevance where the Bible is concerned.

Like others have pointed out, why should I quote the Bible to tell an atheist what I believe is true? If they don't believe the Bible is an authoritative source, then it has no relevance to the conversation.

WildScribe · Jan 23, 2007

I wish that my mother in law would figure this out. She likes to quote random passages from the bible at me. I once tried saying "that's a nice opinion.", but she nearly imploded. I've since decided to smile and change the sugject if possible. Your scripture quotes have no relevance in my life, although the ideas behind them might. I live what most would consider to be a good, Christian life. I am kind, charitable, I try to turn the other cheek and love my fellow man. The only part I'm missing seems to be the Christ part. Oh, well.

Sean D. Schaffer · Jan 23, 2007

WildScribe said:
I wish that my mother in law would figure this out. She likes to quote random passages from the bible at me. I once tried saying "that's a nice opinion.", but she nearly imploded. I've since decided to smile and change the sugject if possible. Your scripture quotes have no relevance in my life, although the ideas behind them might. I live what most would consider to be a good, Christian life. I am kind, charitable, I try to turn the other cheek and love my fellow man. The only part I'm missing seems to be the Christ part. Oh, well.

Any more, parts of the Bible aren't relevant to my life, either. Since I converted from Christianity to an Old Testament faith (Noahide) I find much of the New Testament to be quite irrelevant.

Yet what I am seeing from the other side of the fence, as it were, is people using the NT to tell me why I should believe the NT. It's irritating to try to get people to understand I don't consider that portion of the Bible to be an authoritative source. So I am beginning to see and experience much of the frustration you all feel first-hand. It is not fun.

WildScribe · Jan 23, 2007

Wow, so soft and fluffy stuff for you, huh? Just the hardcore damnation stories? (Please feel free to correct me if my ignorance is showing... it gets out once in a while.)

Sean D. Schaffer · Jan 23, 2007

Not a problem, Wildscribe

WildScribe said:
Wow, so soft and fluffy stuff for you, huh? Just the hardcore damnation stories? (Please feel free to correct me if my ignorance is showing... it gets out once in a while.)

It's quite all right. I'm seeing much of what you're complaining about coming from some of my former colleagues in the Christian faith for the first time, so I'm a bit more understanding of how you feel than I would have been say, three months ago.

WildScribe · Jan 23, 2007

I just did a little reading... no meat?? I would die. Just die. You're one brave dude!

jennifer75 · Jan 23, 2007

farfromfearless said:
So I really want to know, after all the candle-waving, hymn-singing, and scripture-quoting is done, do ministries forget to teach this one aspect of humilty or whatever it is? I'm at a loss because I certainly never had the urge to beat someone over the head with my bible, let alone walk into a croweded room and act with such ignorance.

In my personal experiences, I've noticed that Born Again's tend to "throw it in your face" much more than your basic God loving Christians.

In fact, this followed an amail from a close friend. A very short email at that:

Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment and wait on thy God continually. (Hosea 12:6)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (Colossians 2:8)

I meditate on your precepts and consider your ways. I delight in your decrees; I will not neglect your word. (Psalm 119:15)

...I choose to stop reading the email before the quotes begin. Again, I CHOOSE TO STOP. You don't have to read the quotes.

Sean D. Schaffer · Jan 23, 2007

WildScribe said:
I just did a little reading... no meat?? I would die. Just die. You're one brave dude!

Naw, we're allowed to eat meat, so far as I've read. It's just we're encouraged to eat only certain kinds of meat. I could go into detail but something tells me this thread isn't the proper place.

However, I've heard of similar ideas to what you've mentioned. It could be I'm a different (I hate using the following term) denomination of Noahide than the people are who wrote the stuff you mentioned. Plus there are, to some Noahides, only seven basic laws to keep, whereas to others there could be as many as, I think, 60-some?

It's like any religion, really. Lots of differences, lots of varying ways of practicing it.

jennifer75 · Jan 23, 2007

Sokal said:
Is there really more "hardcore damnation" in the OT than in the NT?
Sure, the Big Guy floods the planet and blows up things...does some smiting even in the aftermath of His sleepover with Dagon the Fishgod...but He also, you know, builds the Garden of Eden, works on the planet, brings His People out of Egypt and so on. The OT is more cosmic. The NT is living in the ruins of Judea after the Romans have done far worse than any amount of "Hardcore Damnation" could. Hell, there's hardly anybody left to damn or quibble over ritual purity once the Romans are done with Judea.
The inward gaze of the NT in a ruined world is perhaps more terrifying than any amount of divine smitting and "enmity between your seed" (ouch).

This is your brain in the NT.

All of the abbreviating that goes on in AW reminds me of the scene in Sleepless in Seattle when the parents are trying to figure out where the little girl flew the little boy in search of his new mother, "NY", "no way?". No, "NY". "H&G".

Sorry, very off topic, I know.

jennifer75 · Jan 23, 2007

Sokal said:
On topic, I think, where NT might mean "New Testiment" or "non-theistic".....currently I'm very fond of CINO (Christian in Name Only)...I like the fact that it is a Tetragrammon with 2 vowels and if you write it very carefully and invoke the LORD while doing it, you can feel the Divine Presence or Absence in the "in Name Only" part. In Nomine Pater(genative, please)....

Wow, none of that made any sense to me. Sorry.

WildScribe · Jan 23, 2007

Me neither, and now my head hurts.

I was referring to Jesus forgiving everyone in the NT. All you have to do to go to heaven in the NT is believe in Jesus. In the OT, as I recall, it's a lot harder and you're probably damned anyway.

Sean D. Schaffer · Jan 23, 2007

WildScribe said:
Me neither, and now my head hurts.

I was referring to Jesus forgiving everyone in the NT. All you have to do to go to heaven in the NT is believe in Jesus. In the OT, as I recall, it's a lot harder and you're probably damned anyway.

Yeah, that always bothered me to an extent. If the two Testaments are supposed to be part of the same Bible, why are they so different? That was always a huge question in my own life.

To continue with the OP's question, I think yet another reason people quote Scripture a lot is the fact that the Scripture is the only thing they really know. Many Christians are challenged to memorize as much of the Bible as they can, so they can give an answer to everyone who asks. But then, in my own experience, so few people asked, I began volunteering information. That was a big mistake on my own part.

Another interesting thing about this whole scenario is the need to win everyone to their faith. Of course, they have plenty of reasons, but the main one I find, at least in the church I was raised in, was to keep myself from not being a good friend to my neighbors. There is a theology in some churches where not telling someone about Jesus is tantamount to hating other people. I think without realizing it, many Christians are trying to gain their own way to Heaven by telling others about how to get there.

It boils down to the point I made in my first post. Fear is a major factor in some forms of the Christian religion. It is sad to me, because I was always told to serve G-d because I love Him, not because I'm afraid of what He'll do to me.

I need to understand something.

farfromfearless

farfromfearless

Sean D. Schaffer

farfromfearless

Angelinity

absent

farfromfearless

nancy02664

Baby Name Maniac

Meerkat

Claims the loan was a gift

JIMBOS

Sweetlebee

farfromfearless

farfromfearless

Sean D. Schaffer

Sean D. Schaffer

WildScribe

Slave to the Wordcount

Sean D. Schaffer

WildScribe

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Sean D. Schaffer

WildScribe

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jennifer75

SupahStah!

Sean D. Schaffer

jennifer75

SupahStah!

jennifer75

SupahStah!

WildScribe

Slave to the Wordcount

Sean D. Schaffer