Herd them Ideas to the Branding Fire!

Cav Guy

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Ok...now that I got your attention with a goofy thread title, I'll get on with what this thread's about.;)

I've seen some folks who are talking about ideas they have for Westerns. This is a good place to "cuss and discuss" those ideas, since as Festus has pointed out there are sub-genres within the Western category. Matt Braun used the terms Western and Novel of the West as somewhat broad groupings, with the latter intended to cover works that might not be traditional Westerns but use the West as a setting.

Myself, I tend to tinker. I have a fictional county in Montana (complete with extensive back history) that I use as a setting for my more traditional work and place the bulk of my historical effort into the stories of the Frontier Army. I've seen some people talking about using female MCs and covering their passages West. Go for it! The journals of the women who made Western trips are among some of the strongest in the historical record of the West. They deserve to have their stories told.

My most recent experiment is a collection of short stories set in the fictional county I mentioned earlier. They're intended to cover the history of the region from 1840 through about 1880, when the bulk of my novel ideas start. I start each story with a short introduction, setting out the historical background and drawing contrasts where needed between how the Western shows things and how the West's history really worked. One quick example, and then I'll stop typing...:D In the traditional Western, a gambler is almost always a cheat and a figure of scorn. In the real West, gamblers were often numbered as a town's most wealthy and at times respected citizens (gambling money had much to do with the founding and build-up of Denver, to name one example).

Ok...enough rambling from me.
 

Gary

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I have nothing intelligent to offer this thread, but will throw in a few comments.

I was once a big fan of westerns and I don't really know why I stopped reading them. I was born and raised where much of the romantic history from that era took place, so I should have more interest. My dad read westerns all the time and I would read them when he was finished, then he gave them to an old bachelor who lived in a homestead shack a few miles from our farm.

My grandparents homesteaded in North Dakota and lived in a soddie for a couple of years while he was breaking the land, so it was fun to hear stories of settling the territory. My grandfather's brother moved a little farther west and claimed his homestead on Wolf Creek in Eastern Montana.

When I was a kid, I was helping a neighbor build a barn. As we were digging the footings, I dug up an old carbine, buried about 2' below the surface. Years later, I learned it was a late version of the Maynard carbine and that the 7th Cavalry had used them for a short time for field testing. Since the 7th was posted only about 60 miles away, I suspect it was probably one of theirs, though I have no idea why it was buried at that depth. If it had been an Indian grave, it should have been deeper.

An old Indian who lived in our town was 14 years old on the day of the Custer battle and claimed to be a participant. He took the name of Adlai Stevenson after meeting the former senator's father. I don't recall his Indian name. Had I been older at the time, it would have been fun to interview him, since the Custer legend has always intrigued me.

I still do pick up westerns if they take place in areas I know, but I've never had the urge to write about the era. I do like your idea of short stories based on a particular area, and would enjoy reading them.
 
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ritinrider

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whoa, Cav guy is this true: "In the traditional Western, a gambler is almost always a cheat and a figure of scorn. In the real West, gamblers were often numbered as a town's most wealthy and at times respected citizens (gambling money had much to do with the founding and build-up of Denver, to name one example)."? I ask because at one point my mc's fil was a gambler and oportunist (having made several $ taking advantage of the war). She, of course, has no use for gambling and this is just one more reason she doesn't want her inlaws to have a say in raising her daughter.

Ya'll are going to keep after it 'till I actually write this darn story.
 

Cav Guy

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Nita: Yeah, it's true. Gamblers often had a huge stake in the development of many communities. Some were known for returning money to miners or cowboys after they'd beaten them in games. There were cheats and scoundrels, but there were also others who saw gambling as a way to make a living and were as honest (if not more so in some cases) than many of today's stockbrokers.
 

Jamesaritchie

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gamblers

It depends on what you mean by "gambler." People from all walks of life gambled, and distinguished members of any community often gambled. Professional gamblers, on the other hand, almost always were cheats. Never before or since did professional gamblers have so many ways to cheat honest men.

It's been said that never once did a riverboat gambler play an honest game, and the facts support this.

There was also a great deal of criticism of any and all gambling in the old west, which eventually made gambling illegal everywhere.

"Honest" and "Gambler" were not words often uttered in the same sentence. If a man was earning a living as a professional gambler, he was almost certainly dishonest. When he gave money back, it was usually either to save his neck, or to encourage many other suckers to play in his game.
 
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skelly

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This is going to sound stupid. Does anybody remember an old TV series called The High Chaparral? I was probably around six years old when I saw it, so I couldn't tell you if it was good or bad (I liked it). But I do very distinctly remember the opening images and the theme song. If I write a western, I want it to have the same feeling as I had hearing that theme and seeing those opening images. I can't even describe the feeling, but I would know it if a story had it. What the heck do you do when all you have is a vague notion about how you want the story to feel? I have a feeling that the kind of Western that I would enjoy writing has probably been passe for 20 years.
 

dpaterso

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Hah, I just mentioned The High Chaparral in a reply to Festus in the SYW Western forum. Those title/credit paintings were wonderful (they're included on the site too!).

-Derek
 
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skelly

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Thanks for the link dpat. Man that brought back a lot of memories! I don't know why that show, particularly the theme and those paintings, affected me so much. Hearing and seeing them again for the first time in 36 years took me right back. I think if I ever see it out on DVD I'll pass, though. The show can't possibly live up to my fond (and probably exaggerated) memories of it.
 

Cav Guy

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It depends on what you mean by "gambler." People from all walks of life gambled, and distinguished members of any community often gambled. Professional gamblers, on the other hand, almost always were cheats. Never before or since did professional gamblers have so many ways to cheat honest men.

It's been said that never once did a riverboat gambler play an honest game, and the facts support this.

There was also a great deal of criticism of any and all gambling in the old west, which eventually made gambling illegal everywhere.

"Honest" and "Gambler" were not words often uttered in the same sentence. If a man was earning a living as a professional gambler, he was almost certainly dishonest. When he gave money back, it was usually either to save his neck, or to encourage many other suckers to play in his game.

Actually this is more part of the Western mythology than the actual history of the West. Riverboat gamblers tended to be nasty customers, as were the crews that worked the rail lines later in the frontier period. But there were a number of gamblers out there who lived and worked according to their own code. Remember, the average cowboy or townsman wasn't especially skilled with cards, so a good gambler didn't need to cheat to come out ahead. And while the "good" townsfolk may have been critical of gamblers and others in the sporting crowd, that certainly didn't stop them from funding many of their civic projects and law enforcement efforts off of indirect taxes (fines) on that same sporting element. Take a look at http://www.amazon.com/dp/0806122455/?tag=absolutewritedm-20
"Knights of the Green Cloth" for some more information on Frontier gamblers.
 

dpaterso

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In fiction, having a winning gambler give a cleaned-out loser the price of a drink and a meal or whatever, is an easy way to make the character appear engaging and sympathetic. But since I've used this trick myself, I'm wondering if it's cliché or at the very least, overdone. Thoughts?

-Derek
 

Cav Guy

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It did happen, so I'm not sure if that makes it cliche. I'm more inclined to think that the heartless cheating gambler who'd take the last nickel from a starving homesteader's wife is much more cliche. The book I mentioned above does talk a bit about gamblers who'd return a portion of their take to an unlucky player, but only if they showed good sportsmanship when they lost. Not all gamblers did this, mind.

I think there's a great deal of room left in the character of the Western gambler. I've got a recurring one who only cheats cheaters, and another who gambles as a way to make ends meet, but he's also a broken man from the Civil War who's one of my darker characters. He'd cheat and then kill a Yankee or carpetbagger in a minute, then turn around and empty his pockets to help out a starving vagabond from South Carolina.

There's actually a good deal of gray in the history of the West, as opposed to the black and white popular culture version. This is one of the things that really attracted me to the genre.
 

Ol' Fashioned Girl

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This is going to sound stupid. Does anybody remember an old TV series called The High Chaparral?

Oh, boy, do I remember! I flat out loved Manolito Montoya! And there was enough romance worked into that show to bring my li'l ol' teenaged heart right into it. Good show!
 

Ol' Fashioned Girl

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Hah, I just mentioned The High Chaparral in a reply to Festus in the SYW Western forum. Those title/credit paintings were wonderful (they're included on the site too!).

-Derek

Wonderful site! If y'all haven't visited there, take a minute... you'll be there for some time. ;) There are some great history links and 'true stories' of some of the most infamous outlaws of the time.
 

JeanneTGC

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There is a Yahoo Groups -- TV_Westerns -- that discusses all the old TV Westerns (yeah, yeah, repetitive), but also books, movies, etc. Some of the list members are very hooked in to the actors from the shows, write books, etc.

I tend to only lurk on the list, but it's a great source for all things visual, Western-wise.
 

Festus

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Read through the whole thread waiting for someone to mention the one gambler TV had on westerns. Hell, maybe I'm the only one who still remembers Maverick!

Gary, Jeanne - ain't no harm in lurking at all! Lurkers have been known to contribute a lot to stories with critiques and comments! An just knowing we have yall's support helps a lot!
 
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JeanneTGC

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Read through the whole thread waiting for someone to mention the one gambler TV had on westerns. Hell, maybe I'm the only one who still remembers Maverick!

Gary, Jeanne - ain't no harm in lurking at all! Lurkers have been known to contribute a lot to stories with critiques and comments! An just knowing we have yall's support helps a lot!
Oh, I didn't mean I lurk HERE. Here I yap it up all the time...many times you can't shut me up. LOL

I meant on the TV Westerns list on Yahoo Groups -- I don't really talk much (at all) there, but it's a lovely group of folks and they have a LOT of information about Westerns and the Old West, and not just the TV Shows.

And I LOVED Maverick! I wanted to marry Brett Maverick. Right after I married Jim West. But before I married Rowdy Yates. Or maybe after. But not before I married both Smith AND Jones. I can't recall now. But for SURE I wanted to marry all of them. (I wasn't all that clear on that whole "monogamy" thing when I was a kid. The Hubs has since trained me up well in it.)

But even as a little girl I knew better than to want to marry Little Joe. Falling for Little Joe was a death sentence.
 

Festus

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ROTFL! Even as a kid I knew that for a gal to fall for any one of the Cartwrights was a death sentence! Used to tell my Grandma, "Yep, that gal's a goner!"

No wish to shut you up, Jeanne. Yore one of us, Pard!
 

dub

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I grew up with Gun Smoke, every Saturday night; and Palidan's Have Gun Will Travel, on Sunday nights. Since most of my early years were spent in the midwest, I also watched a series of grainy b&w westerns every day after school. The host for the show was a man called "The Pony Express Rider." The only station we could pick up was KFEQ in St. Joseph, Missouri. The TV was a little green screen in a big box (1953).
 

JeanneTGC

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I think everyone under the age of 35 grew up with Gunsmoke...LOL! I can still remember watching it when I was little.

I really liked The Young Riders, too. Never saw the Pony Express show you referenced, though. Who were the stars?
 

Vanatru

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I think everyone under the age of 35 grew up with Gunsmoke...LOL! I can still remember watching it when I was little.

I really liked The Young Riders, too. Never saw the Pony Express show you referenced, though. Who were the stars?

Sheeesh..........I thought you were one of the station masters. Figured you'd know those people first hand. ;)
 

Anthony Ravenscroft

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I grew up with Rawhide & Paladin & Gunsmoke (albeit post-Chester) & Wagon Train, all the way through Shane & The Rifleman, winding up at about Hec Ramsey.

Anyway, per gamblers. Remember, farmers aren't pushovers. I was out for a beer last week, & marvelled at how some of the arthritic old farmers hereabout could clean my clock at billiards, & I used to do a little hustling. When your family's snowbound, you get pretty good with the cards, too. The reason a farmer would play against a pro would be because the pro is giving some entertainment.

Now, if you're talking about the players being people with more pocket-money than sense, that's another thing entirely. New Yorkers & furriners arrived to get fast wealth off the goild or silver strikes, already being foolish gamblers, would probably be easy marks. Again, though, the gambler probably wouldn't "plunge," & might even refuse to bet against a plunger, & settle for a nice steady rakeoff.

Such a gambler would also be more likely to fund speculative ventures than would a bank. He's not a loan shark, but he probably takes a substantial cut of any successes, & few will welch on him because they could find their tabs refused at the tavern or hotel or whatever.
 

dub

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Of course, like everyone my age, we had our little cowboy hats and pistols. I have a scratched B&W pix of me in one of those outfits - about 1952 or so. We rode stick horses around the yard and shot all the imaginary bad guys. My grandfather had a few horses, left from plowing days, so, when I was old enough I would ride them around the lot and pretend I was a cowboy. Then when I was barely a teenager I became a stable boy - now that will ruin your desire to be a cowboy, my job was to clean stables. In the winter I had to take hay out to the far reaches of the farm. Those ponies beat me to death (pushed into fences, knocked over)...so, my cowboy days faded away. I played with Uncle Sam then I moved east, to the Carolina beaches - long forgotten was the stick horse and six shooters ...until I happened to be doing some research for a historical novel and ran across a book of cowboy poetry - wow, like an old love affair being revisited.