Print on Demand: Getting Facts Straight

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euphrosene

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This is a wonderfully friendly forum, so it is a pity there is both an element of snobbishness as well as ignorance over both Print on Demand technology and what self-publishing actually is.

For example, I have just read these comments:

-We don't think POD is a dirty word, but we think it's generally a bad idea for writers who want to sell books to strangers….

-In general, bookstores WILL NOT STOCK self-published/vanity-published books because (a) there's no market for them, (b) they're overpriced, (c) there's no returns policy, (d) there's no quality control, (e) the covers are not professional, (f) there's no publisher backing them with a publicity campaign, etc.

-… what that ACTUALLY means is that someone can walk up to a desk and place a special order for the book and come back 2 weeks later and pick it up, but that the book will *not* be on bookstore shelves, no matter how well-written it is. The only people who do place special orders of POD books are generally the writer's Aunt Gertrude and best friend from high school.


-…Commercial publishing is when a publisher pays you to publish your book. Self publishing is when you pay the publisher to publish your book.

If negative comments are going to be made, at least get the facts straight!!!

Firstly, self-publishing is NOT the same as vanity publishing. With vanity publishing, you sign a contract and pay a publisher of some description (not recommended).

However, with self-publishing, using a PoD supplier, YOU effectively become the publisher.

That *does* mean you have to take control of all the elements that a conventional publisher promises to do… which includes stocking shelves, if you choose to go that route, marketing and so forth. That is why it is called SELF-publishing.

BUT… with the right mechanisms in place, an order can be fulfilled within 72 hours.

I *know* because I have sold quite a few books this way.

AND, please note, even conventional publishers use PoD technology, because not all you conventionally published authors sell that many copies either!

I can think of at least four high profile names here in the UK who did not each even manage to sell 600 copies of their book.

No conventional publisher with any business acumen is going to commit to several thousand copies to stock everywhere if hardly any are going to be sold.

PoD tech is wonderful for allowing them to ‘suck it and see’.

A decent PoD supplier is, in essence, a printer with a particular piece of non-litho technology which can handle covers and content and has a very quick turnaround.

Self-publishing, to repeat myself, is when you, the author, contract them directly to print it. YOU are the publisher.

btw PoD tech will allow virtually any rubbishy covers to look good. However, there are so many low-cost designers around, this too should not be an issue.

What is an issue is having your books on every bookshelf everywhere. But I can think of a few conventionally produced authors in this forum who are not even listed on amazon.co.uk let alone our bookshelves in the UK!

Please note, distribution is a problem if you have only the one title. At least try and get it on amazon and accept the costs as part of your marketing push.

If you are that sure of your book, you can price it as you wish. Volume sales will either bring in good returns or a conventional publisher to buy the rights.

Once you have at least five titles, there are organisations like Gardners of Eastbourne (I am sure there are US and RoW equivalents) who will distribute and handle returns and so forth.

Thankfully, I have sold quite a few though not enough to feel proud or flush! But I have never had a return … and the overwhelming majority have all been sold to ‘strangers’. Friends and family tend to want copies for nothing!

Authors of every description had better get used to this form of technology because, soon enough, even titles brought out by conventional publishers will be bought from booths at stations and malls.

That will then put self-publishers and conventional publishers on a very even footing.

Even wise book shops will probably have their own book booths (or whatever they are going to be called).

For a start, it will cut down on unnecessary hard stock, while actually INCREASING overall stock and choice, since the technology will be able to hold considerably MORE electronic versions, all waiting to be printed out ‘on demand’.

Secondly, it will reduce the wastage from people browsing but never buying. Buyers will be tempted into shops through alternative methods... a topic for a separate thread.

There is more I could write on this but this should help to redress the balance.

And, yes, I have written a book on self-publishing and will be happy to email a pdf to anyone who emails me at euphrosene at floreo dot org.

btw I am an evangelist for lazy learning too! The little books have all been specifically designed to be ultra discreet and to cut out any extraneous text.
 

FergieC

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I can think of at least four high profile names here in the UK who did not each even manage to sell 600 copies of their book.

I think this is what a lot of people on here miss in the discussion about what route is best for a new writer to go.

The stark, basic fact is that, however you're published, most new writers do not sell a lot of books and don't make enough money to live from writing, certainly not from a first novel.

If you're determined to hold out for a killer deal with a large advance, huge marketing budget and guaranteed bookshop presence immediately, you could end up waiting forever. Small publishers, self-publishing, POD, schemes like MacMillan's New Writing without advances or marketing are all options that are on the table, and shouldn't be discounted out of hand. Also, technology is changing and will continue to do so.

The average amount a writer in Scotland makes from writing (and I'm assuming JK Rowling and Alexander McCall Smith are factored into the average) is about £4000. That means the vast majority are not selling a lot of books. So yes, POD will become more and more the norm for new writers, I think. It makes more sense for publishers to go that route.

And as for readers, they appear to be leaving bookshops in droves. Since Waterstones took over the only competition in my city, readers are incredibly frustrated and turning to the internet much more. Sites like thelibrarything are brilliant, because you can find books you really want to read, even if they're not in British bookshops and you wouldn't otherwise have heard of them. Compared to the 3 for 2 tables with all the same titles you've already read if you wanted to, it's liberating...
 

LloydBrown

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I'm having a little trouble reconciling this statement
...I have sold quite a few books this way.
with this one

Thankfully, I have sold ...not enough to feel proud or flush!


Are you certain enough of your point to share exactly how many books of a single title you've sold? It's amazing how much stronger your argument becomes when you support it with detail.

AND, please note, even conventional publishers use PoD technology, because not all you conventionally published authors sell that many copies either!
"Conventional" publishers primarily use POD for ARCs and to keep backlist titles available after the last cost-effective print run is done. If you're going to sell 5,000 copies of something, POD makes no sense. If you're not going to sell 5,000 copies, what's the point?
 

ResearchGuy

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. . . And as for readers, they appear to be leaving bookshops in droves. . . . Compared to the 3 for 2 tables with all the same titles you've already read if you wanted to, it's liberating...
You could not tell that by my local Barnes & Noble -- lots of customers and about 10,000 square feet with a vast and continuously updated selection.

--Ken
 

Toothpaste

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I am only responding to the initial claim that the people here do not understand that POD is different from Vanity. I'm sorry that you ran into a few threads that seemed to say so, but I have read many an other thread about legitimate uses for PODs. I would think the fact that there is an entire section on the forum designed to discuss POD would be enough proof for that. Most people here know that POD is the technology, not the publisher. And I think most everyone here admits there are genuinely good times to use POD. Have you read this whole section? Because while occasionally a debate may ensue (and really, what's wrong with debate), most of this section is devoted for helping other POD people with producing and marketing their work.
 

snook

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My POD hit the streets last week...

My book is already at 20+ stores IN STOCK. These screen prints are from Bookfinder4u.com, other book search engines show even more IN STOCK at other stores. I do my POD at LULU, I own my ISBN and all rights also. Oh, it's IN STOCK at Amazon and Barnes & Noble also:

BFFU_1.JPG

BFFU_2.JPG

BFFU_3.JPG

BFFU_4.JPG
 

snook

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Nope, just an example that POD can be far away from vanity stigma. I'll be stocking local indies and chain brick and mortars in the next month. It is what you make it. Just an example. When I get my next months sales statement, I'll post it for the sake of disclosure.
 
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veinglory

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I'm just not sure what it is an example off. Vanity books (one's people pay $1000s in advance for) are available on those same sites).

The myth is that you can't get a POD shelved, the truth as mentioned is that if you know what you are about--you can. but you do need to know what you are about rather than go buying a standard package.
 

snook

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Yep, just buying a package ain't a gonna get it. You have to network and hoof it. I have a day job thank goodness, this is more of an experiment to me. Interesting so far and highly exasperating but very educational.
 

Mac H.

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My book is already at 20+ stores IN STOCK. These screen prints are from Bookfinder4u.com, other book search engines show even more IN STOCK at other stores. I do my POD at LULU, I own my ISBN and all rights also. Oh, it's IN STOCK at Amazon and Barnes & Noble also
Congratulations - it looks like a nice book.

Remember that the 'OD' part of 'POD' means ON DEMAND.

That means that there is no stock. The book isn't printed until someone orders it. That's the whole beauty of the business model !

To cope with this new concept, though, the book search engines simply list POD books as being 'in stock' even though they don't physically have any copies in stock. A pedant would point out that they should change their label to 'Available' instead of 'In Stock', but the customer doesn't really care about the technicallity.

Everyone already agrees that POD books are available in online stores !!!

If you want to physically stock the books into bricks and mortor stores, it might be worth doing an offset printing run instead of POD.

This print cost estimator is interesting.

Good luck !

Mac
 
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euphrosene

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I'm having a little trouble reconciling this statement with this one[/font]

[/font]

Are you certain enough of your point to share exactly how many books of a single title you've sold? It's amazing how much stronger your argument becomes when you support it with detail.

"Conventional" publishers primarily use POD for ARCs and to keep backlist titles available after the last cost-effective print run is done. If you're going to sell 5,000 copies of something, POD makes no sense. If you're not going to sell 5,000 copies, what's the point?

Assuming you make £1 or $1 per copy would YOU be proud or even flush at earning £5000/$5000?

You can sell copies without actually making a whole lot of money... and even publishers do not always hand out massive advances. Certainly not enough to live on for long.

Maybe earning huge sums as an IT salesperson has raised my expectations too much!
 

euphrosene

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FYI

I do not think bookshops will go out of business but I do think the browsing experience will change–and for the better—for all parties involved in the process.

Here are some interesting comments you might enjoy:

http://hereticallibrarian.blogspot.com/2006/10/pod-revolution.html

http://blog.susan-hill.com/blog/_archives/2006/10/16/2421590.html

http://www.bryanappleyard.com/blog/2006/10/pods-blogs-and-books.php

http://copywriter.typepad.com/copywriter/2006/06/print_on_demand.html


Re the various posts here, yes, I have read some of them. And very informative they are too. Many thanks.

I was responding to specific comments, plus the one or two posters who come across as rather patronising. Surely the key is to be open to all ideas and methods, if the desire is that strong?
 

snook

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Mac H. that is a good suggestion, we'll see how the online sales go first month, might not be enough interest to justify a 500 print run though. Also, if the book isn't in stock how can they state that the book ships in 1 day?
 

maestrowork

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My book is already at 20+ stores IN STOCK. These screen prints are from Bookfinder4u.com, other book search engines show even more IN STOCK at other stores. I do my POD at LULU, I own my ISBN and all rights also. Oh, it's IN STOCK at Amazon and Barnes & Noble also

These are all online stores. There's no inventory and return policy requirements. Anyone with an ISBN can list with them. We're talking about actual, physical store shelves. Places where people can actually go, look, browse, and pick up the book.

As for the OP -- read the threads again. We know the difference between POD (the technology) versus the business model. The problem is always distribution and getting onto store shelves. As for UK market -- do you realize many people here are from the US? Do you realize they may have only sold their N. America right? Why would their book be available in the UK? (But mine is.)
 

maestrowork

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Nope, just an example that POD can be far away from vanity stigma. I'll be stocking local indies and chain brick and mortars in the next month. It is what you make it. Just an example. When I get my next months sales statement, I'll post it for the sake of disclosure.

You can list vanity books on Amazon or BN.com.

Local indies will stock vanity books if you ask -- sometimes on consignment.

Local chains will stock self-pub books if you offer them standard discounts and returns. It's the lack of regional or national distribution that is the problem. I really do doubt that they stock your Lulu book. Can you substantiate your claim?

Again, no one is equating POD (technology) with business models.
 
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maestrowork

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Mac H. that is a good suggestion, we'll see how the online sales go first month, might not be enough interest to justify a 500 print run though. Also, if the book isn't in stock how can they state that the book ships in 1 day?

The store (amazon, etc.) may not stock it themselves. They order from wholesalers like Ingram, which may stock the book in small quantities and order more on demand. If the demand exceeds their inventory, you are not going to see the book for days.
 

euphrosene

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These are all online stores. There's no inventory and return policy requirements. Anyone with an ISBN can list with them. We're talking about actual, physical store shelves. Places where people can actually go, look, browse, and pick up the book.

As for the OP -- read the threads again. We know the difference between POD (the technology) versus the business model. The problem is always distribution and getting onto store shelves. As for UK market -- do you realize many people here are from the US? Do you realize they may have only sold their N. America right? Why would their book be available in the UK? (But mine is.)


Message from 'OP' to a modest 'maestro'... read my original post and you will see it refers to particular comments (included). Here in the UK, we have an expression - RTFD.

For the record, I am perfectly aware of what I wrote and what I meant, so please do not be so patronising. If you doubt that you are, read again what you wrote...
 

LloydBrown

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Assuming you make £1 or $1 per copy would YOU be proud or even flush at earning £5000/$5000?

You can sell copies without actually making a whole lot of money... and even publishers do not always hand out massive advances. Certainly not enough to live on for long.

Maybe earning huge sums as an IT salesperson has raised my expectations too much!

So I'm gathering the answer would be "No", that you can't actually support your statement with a number of books that you've sold. Strangely, I knew that was coming.
 

euphrosene

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So I'm gathering the answer would be "No", that you can't actually support your statement with a number of books that you've sold. Strangely, I knew that was coming.

What is wrong with you???

I was answering a specific point that 'strangers' buy PoD books.

I do not think at ANY point I said that you will get a massive best seller.

Good grief. I just hope your books are not so damned opaque. And if that is rude... well sorry. But I have a sick mother right now, and clever dick replies I need like a hole in the head.

Ciao.
 

veinglory

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Actually there *are* print on demand books stocked in brick and mortar stores, some of them nation wide. What it takes is discount + returns, printing a short run with someone like lightning source and sweet taking a few acquisitions staff.

A POD book is not a shoe in for shelving--in fact it is a difficult task-- but companies like Samhain are getting it done.
 
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LloydBrown

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My book is already at 20+ stores IN STOCK. These screen prints are from Bookfinder4u.com, other book search engines show even more IN STOCK at other stores. I do my POD at LULU, I own my ISBN and all rights also. Oh, it's IN STOCK at Amazon and Barnes & Noble also:

Yes, Amazon automatically lists all books with ISBNs unless you request otherwise. However so-called publishers like Publish America list you with all of those online resources, too, and they sell an average of 75 copies per title--most of those TO the author. The online sites combined sell maybe 30-40 copies for you worldwide.

Here's how it really works: online sales mirror physical sales. If your book sells well, its Amazon ranking improves. If it has few or no sales directly, and through bookstores, it probably has an Amazon ranking in the 2 million range. It would be extremely unusual for a book to sell well and not reflect that popularity through its online sales (nearly all of which is from Amazon).
 

LloydBrown

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I was answering a specific point that 'strangers' buy PoD books.

Why would you do that in a post to me, when it's not related to the comments I made or the questions I asked?

I do not think at ANY point I said that you will get a massive best seller.

That makes two of us. 5,000 copies is not a massive best-seller. It's a bare minimum to be successful commercially in many markets, and some publishers have higher break-even points.

My point is this: if you've sold 10 or 20 books, few people would consider you an authority on how publishing works. Since you're pretty much wrong with every post (when you do stay on topic), I'm assuming that the number you won't mention is not, in fact, very high.
 

veinglory

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There is a pretty wide taboo on mentioning sales figures. I can say I know why--I drag mine out every time the ol' epublishing discussion comes up. Let people judge for themselves.
 
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