Anyone know if that was a real book dedication, or just a funny example someone made up as an argument in favor of the serial comma? I can't find a reference, just lots of people calling it "apocryphal."
"To my parents, Ayn Rand and God"
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Wiki says it apocryphal. I would guess that since an actual book is never cited (that I've seen) that someone made it up as an example.
There is an actually case of a famous writer leaving out a comma in his will and therefore making his true intention impossible to determine. I can't remember who that was at the moment (hey, it's five am where I am).
There is an actually case of a famous writer leaving out a comma in his will and therefore making his true intention impossible to determine. I can't remember who that was at the moment (hey, it's five am where I am).
I first found it in a textbook published in the seventies; I think it was made up.
The Serial Comma Rules !
The Serial Comma Rules !
I agree. I love the serial comma, even when it doesn't necessarily clear up ambiguity. In tech writing, we use it every time. The marketing docs my company produces don't use it (as a rule), which can lead to some hilarious ambiguity (like the Ayn Rand and God example). It's amazing how people don't see the problem, even when it's pointed out.
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It's Eats, Shoots, and Leaves all over again! Sorry I'm no help. I was hopping in to see what you were saying about Ayn Rand, too.
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I hate tech writing for that fact, that many companies don't use a comma before "and" in those instances. So then when I'm writing fiction I have to think, to comma, or not to comma?
Thanks!
Know what's funny? I've never actually heard/seen a writer take the opposite side. There are plenty of us die-hard "Go, serial comma!" people, and I don't know any who would say, "Die, serial comma, die!" Yet plenty of people do leave it out. Are they just not particularly opinionated about it?
Know what's funny? I've never actually heard/seen a writer take the opposite side. There are plenty of us die-hard "Go, serial comma!" people, and I don't know any who would say, "Die, serial comma, die!" Yet plenty of people do leave it out. Are they just not particularly opinionated about it?
Oh dear lord Jenna . . . would that I could say the same.
I've seen writers get in each other's face over this more times than I can count.
And, speaking as an editor, you are entering dangerous territory when you edit a non-serial lover's prose and make it serial.
Editors, though, editors are the worst. I once naively took two editors at a convention to a bar, thinking to make peace with the aid of the barley and the rye.
I had a 175.00 tab, pre tip.
I've seen writers get in each other's face over this more times than I can count.
And, speaking as an editor, you are entering dangerous territory when you edit a non-serial lover's prose and make it serial.
Editors, though, editors are the worst. I once naively took two editors at a convention to a bar, thinking to make peace with the aid of the barley and the rye.
I had a 175.00 tab, pre tip.
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I remember (or at least I think I remember) being taught in grade school that the comma before the "and" was optional. I must confess, I don't see any ambiguity with or without the comma. What am I missing here?
Oh, just a minute. She's offering Ayn Rand and God to her parents? Still, it seems to me that in the context of a sentence, an alternate reading is not likely to jump up and scream for attention.
Oh, just a minute. She's offering Ayn Rand and God to her parents? Still, it seems to me that in the context of a sentence, an alternate reading is not likely to jump up and scream for attention.
ErylRavenwell
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Judg, the way it reads, it sounds like the author's parents ARE Ayn Rand and God.
And Lisa:
It's pretty straight forward. I don't see how this can be confusing.
This is really weird. I copied your quote using the copy function on my computer and plugged it into the Google search box. The quote says "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God" What comes up in the Google search box is "department of homeland security research interests." If I copy it into a Word document, it comes out as [FONT="]"To my parents, Ayn Rand and God" [/FONT]
Does this happen to anyone else?
Does this happen to anyone else?
To me, it would be confusing either way (and would be better if it was reworded), but what if it was written without the full name?
To my parents, Jenna and William.
vs.
To my parents, Jenna, and William.
At least in the second example the reader would have a clue that it's to "my parents" AND "Jenna" AND "William".
Personally, I use the serial comma, but I don't think it's too important whether it's used or not in fiction, but it is in non-fiction because there's a good chance that at some point a writer will have to use it to make sense of a series. If you're going to have to use it sometimes, why not use it in all cases.
Now if I can just figure out why I'm offering an opinion in the Grammar forum. I better get outta here before someone finds my fifth-grade English report card.
;-)
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I think a good rule of thumb might be whether the two items separated by the "and" are somehow related. For instance, "...and her daughters, Scarlet and Rachel" vs. "...and her daughters, Scarlet, and Rachel." The first one, at least to me, implies that it's referring to two people (her daughters, who are named Scarlet and Rachel) and the second sounds like it's referring to her daughters, another person named Scarlet, and yet another person named Rachel.
I hope that sort of makes sense
I heard that a computer manual writer used it in his acknowledgement page...but I don't know which writer or which manual? I don't even know if it's true?
ErylRavenwell
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Hmm, I know, but this is not my point. Were it: To my parents, God and Ayn Rand, perhaps, I say perhaps, one could be misled to think one of his parents is God Rand. But God stands alone after the conjunction; there is little room for confusion here.
Unless the person were talking about GOD, & not a person named "God." Which is part of what makes it so funny.
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JennaGlatzer said:
I read that and thought, "I know! How can you not care?" Then again, people who aren't as interested in language probably think it's insane to even think about it, much less argue the point. Which is probably why those bizarre arguments I've seen about whether Windows or Mac, Explorer or Firefox is better seem so strange to me but make absolutely perfect sense to techies.
Sage said:
I read a comedy bit in that great mysterious "somewhere online" about wanting to live downstairs from a fat guy, so that when accepting awards the comic could confuse everyone by thanking God and "the big man upstairs, too." I love it!
Ayn was ahead of her time. She didn't want to change her last name.
;-)
(Yes, I'm just teasing.)
I was taught British English at school, so obviously I never really used it during the school years. Infact, we were never even told about it! However, as I now read more and more of American literature, and interact with Americans on forums, the serial comma is gradually becoming a part of my style. Though, after reading the wiki entry on the serial comma, I think its inclusion, or omission for that matter, depends entirely on what you are trying to get that.
For e.g., let's look at this dedication:
For my mother, Ayn Rand, and God
If the writer is making this dedication to three different people, the serial comma only introduces ambiguity in this case. It appears as if Ayn Rand is the mother of the writer.
So, I would say, it really depends.
For e.g., let's look at this dedication:
For my mother, Ayn Rand, and God
If the writer is making this dedication to three different people, the serial comma only introduces ambiguity in this case. It appears as if Ayn Rand is the mother of the writer.
So, I would say, it really depends.
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