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Pthom

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Hey, I have a question. Once I have an answer, the knowledge will become part of a SF story I'm dreaming up. But I don't want the facts to be in question.

Wanna know: is it possible for an object to slam into the moon and drill through it, without immediately blowing the moon to bits? If so, what size is it, how massive is it, and what must its velocity be?
 

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Dang good question (which I can't answer) but I would think it would have to be incredibly small, with extreme density and speed, in order not to blow the moon to little bits of cheese.
 

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even small, high velocity micro meteoroids will crater.

The energy needed to drill through the moon would be enormous. And to prevent cratering, it would have to be released slowly over time, i.e. drilling. Any projectile with a starting velocity high enough to pierce the moon would release most of its energy at the surface.

The only projectiles that could do it would be neutrinos or the not-yet-discovered tachyon. They could pass through the moon, but neither of them would leave a hole.

Using a bit of science fiction, you might be able to have an extremely small diameter black hole, passing at sufficient velocity through the moon that it continues through the center and onward past the other side. anything touching the event horizon would get pulled in. Anything outside the event horizon would see it as normal mass. If the mass were small enough, the diameter would be small enough, and the moon's orbit shouldn't be affected too much. Whether a micro black hole is possible is another thing. But sufficient handwaving could get you through a story.
 

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Peter, I don't know if this info will help you, but David Brin's book Earth dealt with micro black holes. The book was okay, but I'm admittedly a "soft sci-fi" reader usually, so I don't remember much of the science supporting the plot. There was enough info there that might point you in the right direction, though. :Shrug:
 

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greglondon said:
Using a bit of science fiction, you might be able to have an extremely small diameter black hole, passing at sufficient velocity through the moon that it continues through the center and onward past the other side. anything touching the event horizon would get pulled in. Anything outside the event horizon would see it as normal mass. If the mass were small enough, the diameter would be small enough, and the moon's orbit shouldn't be affected too much. Whether a micro black hole is possible is another thing. But sufficient handwaving could get you through a story.
Well, nobody can say for sure that you're wrong. In theory, you could have black hole on the order of Planck's mass (2*10^-8 kg). A basic quantum mechanics book could probably give you the other pertinent properties in more detail than you'd ever want. Whether or not Hawking Radiation would cause it to evaporate is open for debate, but just take the against side and start writing. Nobody is going to be able definitively correct you in the near future.
 

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Shwebb said:
Peter, I don't know if this info will help you, but David Brin's book Earth dealt with micro black holes. The book was okay, but I'm admittedly a "soft sci-fi" reader usually, so I don't remember much of the science supporting the plot. There was enough info there that might point you in the right direction, though. :Shrug:

I was thinking the same thing. A micro black hole... or maybe an planet-piercing adamantium slug fired from a capital-class warship's spinal-mount gauss cannon.

There would be blowback on the opposite side, though. That slug would be only a meter wide or so, but the crater on the other end would be the size of the grand canyon.
 

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I think we talked a bit about this in the SCIENCE thread, actually. Didn't we discuss small meteors that actually went through the earth?
 

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Pete, you're right. Took me awhile but I found the portion of the discussion where someone pointed to this article in Wired. Now that thing is tiny and heavy, size of a red blood cell, massing 10 tons. If the only consternation it caused was to wiggle a few seismometers, and any damage it may have done is so insignificant that we're not worried about a chunk of the Earth falling off, then somthing larger may still be able to pass through without the damage Greg mentioned above.

For my story, I want the object and the results of its collision to be as factual as possible. I also want the moon to come apart, but not in the kind of huge explosion that say, an asteroid or comet striking the moon would cause.

I've asked my friend the physics professor at the local college about it and he said he'd look into it, just to give him a few days. I'll keep you posted.
 

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I read the "Wired" link. Interesting. They start out presenting it as confirmed fact then slowly back up and say they're not sure.

But it would be usable for fiction. I hadn't thought of it, but it would work. I was thinking chemically. And the nucleus of an atom compared to the electron cloud is like a mosquito in a football stadium. A lot of empty space.

A black hole would reduce the space. But so would dark matter. the number of nuclei you could pack together in the space of a single atom would be massive. Think the number of mosquitos you could fit in a three dimensional space of a football stadium. Each of which contains most of the mass of a normal atom, but now, without any of the empty space around it.

Normally, the strong force that hold nuclei together is only so strong. Once you get a hundred protons or so, the strong force has a hard time holding it together, and you get radioactive decay. If strange quarks let you pile neutrons together, then you've got a lot of mass in a tiny, tiny space.

add some handwaving, and you've got a story.
 
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Pthom said:
I've asked my friend the physics professor at the local college about it and he said he'd look into it, just to give him a few days. I'll keep you posted.

The bits that don't compromise your story, I'd love to read.
 

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What about some type of chemical reaction? A virus or a mold maybe? The moon isn't alive but is there anything that would react to the moon's matter like a virus would? I'm sure there isn't and besides how would it maintain a tunnel?

What about something extremely hot that could burn it's way through? I guess it would have to be so hot to do that that it would burn itself up before it got the job done.

Back to chemicals...what about something acidic that could 'burn' through in that way? Maybe gravity would keep it heading straight in but then gravity would work against it beyond the core.

Are you thinking right through the core or an eliptical path that 'slingshots' around the core?

I don't know...obviously. It's a good question and remarkably fun to think about.
 

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Still researching what's possible. Stay tuned.

But for my story (an aside: the story is fiction--this is a "fact" forum), I just do not want the moon to blow up all at once, but to disintegrate over time--say a couple of years. I also need to figure out how long it'd take a pulverized moon to form recognizable rings.
 

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That story about the tiny object that shot through the earth in 1993 blows my mind. Pardon my ignorance re. the physics of it. Could there be cause for a series of similar objects to shoot for the earth (or the moon) at once side by side, like a tighter and denser version of the fragments of Comet Shoemaker that spattered Jupiter in a neat line? I'm imagining the threadlike channel that must have been dug through the earth in 1993, but multiplied enough times to amount to a razor blade slicing through the planet.
 
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I just do not want the moon to blow up all at once, but to disintegrate over time--say a couple of years.

A theory on the formation of the earth and moon:

Once upon a time, several billion years ago I believe, a planetoid (proto-earth) was hit by another planetoid (approximately the size of mars). The resultant impact caused the earth to tilt on its axis and created the moon. This connection also put the moon in an orbit such that one side always faces the earth. The moon was iniitially extremely close to the earth and caused massive ocean tides and earthquakes as it orbited the earth. The moon has slowly gotten farther and farther away from the earth to where it is now billions of years later.

The initial impact of the two proto planets vaporized the surface of both planets and caused the mass of the mars-sized planet to get aggregated into the proto-earth planet. It would have taken millions of years for this collision to settle out and form anything that resembed the current earth-moon system.

The mass and energy involved in the collision was on a massive scale and took millions of years to settle out.

I'm a little stumped of what sort of astronomical event would cause the moon to quietly break apart over a few years.
 

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Oh, you are no doubt spot on in all things there, Greg. And I'll likely have to do a lot of arm waving to make this story work.

So, I'm likely facing the prospect that the collision, being highly elastic, will be, as observed from Earth, a spectacular and violent explosion. So what happens to the particles? Sure, the original particles took millions (maybe billions) of years to coalesce into what are now Earth and Luna, but how long do they take to scatter about? Earth's gravity will keep all but the highest velocity particles in the vicinity, no? I assume mutual gravity will keep the largest particles in a sort of clump for a long time, too.

Still, if the incoming object had the proper vector, it might destroy the moon in such a manner that the formation of rings about the planet takes less time than the random manner in which they clumped together initially.

(Am still waiting for the physicist to return his professional opinion.)
 

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I think any impact that could break up the moon would do so instantly and hurl dinosaur extincting sized rocks towards the earth.

The only thing I could think of that would go quietly would be a black hole. outside their event horizon, a black hole simply orbits like any normal mass. So, if you had a black hole that happened to be on a trajectory that intercepted the moon, you could have it instantly (cause it'd be moving at meteor-level speeds) slip through the moon and carve out its core, like coring an apple. Then have the black hole continue on its way and leave the picture. (the near miss would affect Earth's orbit, but handwaving could say its minor I think)

The sudden drop in mass of the moon, and the fact that its hollow, might cause it to collapse and break apart. And the pieces might be able to form a ring around earth.

Insert sufficient handwaving, and it could take place over a few, relatively quiet no-dino-killing impacts, years.
 

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I've been a lurker for quite some time but i though i'd register just to comment on this one.

There is really no way to have a celestial body break slowly apart. As was noted, gravity will still act even if the moon is cracked. There are only two ways to get mass out of a gravity well, either constant acceleration or a starting velocity higher than the escape velocity for the particular gravity well.
Constant acceleration, well, can only happens if you use a lot of small rockets to get every single moon-rock off the moon so it's right out.
An impact would accelrate shortly, but then leave all pieces drifting. Everything that hasn't reached escape velocity will come crashing down again. This will happen rather quickly.
A quick google search tells us that the moons gravity is 1,6m/s² and escape velocity 2400m/s.
So, anything flying slower than 2,4 kilometres per second at the time of impact (i.e. 8640km/h, 5368mph) will come crashing down again. That won't take a long time either, after an hour or so everything would be pretty much over, the fast bits flying away at constant speed, the rest again forming a ball-shaped rock puddle.
I say puddle because at the huge energy levels involved, it's best to think of planets as blobs of liquid, compared to the amount of potential and gravitational energy involved, the ridigness of the rocks doesn't stand a chance.
Likewise, boring a hole through the moon can only happen will really small holes (at the scales involved). A hole with a few meters diameter might just be stable, but nothing that'd be visible from earth.

Since i'm on a roll a few more fun figures:
The moon has a mass of 7,2*10^22 kilograms.
As above noted the escape velocity at the surface is 2400m/s.
Now i'll just do a very simplistic calculation here (since it's only to get an idea of the scales involved) of what energy is needed break apart the moon, i.e. make all of the material of the moon fly off in different directions without crashing together again. So what is the energy required to accelerate the whole mass of the moon to surface escape velocity?
(0,5)*(7,2*10^22)*(2400²) as in e=0.5mv²
That leaves us with 2*10^29 Joule
That's a lot. That's *really* a lot. I don't know who here can visualize 10^29, i'm sure i can't. So let's get that into a better format.
Let's pick megatons, we're used to that for explosions anyway. One megaton is 4,18*10^15 Joule. That means the explosion requires 4,78*10^13 Megatons.
The biggest nuclear bomb ever build had a potential yield of 100, and was tested with 50.
That's right, fifty.
10^13 is 10 trillion, still quite mind boggingly big.
Since the theoretized dinosaur killer asteroid was already mentioned let's pick that for comparison. It's supposed to have been a really big, really fast rock, 10-15km in size and travelling at 20km/s.
It would have had a yield of about a hundred million megatons or 10^8.
Now we're down to more easily imaginable dimensions. Fifty thousand of these impacts would have had enough energy to break apart the moon.
As for the point of my long rant, if you enjoy number games like i do, i hope to have entertained you. If not, just take this as the research for the answer: Yes, any impact big enough to break apart the moon would most definitly be noticable from earth. ;)

Anyway. Don't let cold science discourage you from writing a story about the moon breaking apart, however i'd suggest a very heavy dose of imaginary science, something like an unkown device that for some reason pushes the moon apart/removes gravity in that area/fiddles in other ways with the laws of nature. With purely newtonian physics as we know them, there's no way to have a stellar body slowly break apart. Slowly getting eaten by a black hole inside out or something similar, yes, but stellar bodies are very resistant against any kind of outwards motion. It's why they form in the first place. ;)
It's really better to think of stellar bodies as liquids than as solids, at the energies and masses involved there is no such thing as a solid.

A sidenote about the black hole idea: It's a nice idea but has one (possible minor) problem. A black hole with a radius big enough to swallow a sizeable part of the moon on a pass would be very massive indeed. A black hole with the mass of our sun would have a radius of only about 3km, but about 4500 times the mass of the moon. Though even on a quick pass it would swallow mass from a lot farther out that, but would of course also cause the rest to collapse.

Now i'll relurk if you don't mind.
 

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Okay.
So in order to destroy the moon, we need to smash it with a huge rock. Say one 50k times the size of the "dinosaur" rock. One that is 1.1X10^17 cubic meters, or about 1,300,000 meters in diameter. The moon is 3,480,000 meters in diameter--our cue-ball is about a third as big. This is based on the cue-ball being made of rock the same density as the moon and moving at the above mentioned 20 km/s velocity. I assume a faster moving body, or one more dense might be smaller.

As for my mention of "slowly" coming apart, I didn't mean leisurely. I meant that I'd like it to come apart, just not immediately become a cloud of dust. If the cue-ball moves at 20km/s, then it would take half an hour to cross the diameter of the moon. If it hit the moon dead center, then much of that velocity would be absorbed in the collision. But as has been pointed out, if it sufficiently large (or massive) then there is enough energy to squirt moon stuff all over the vicinity.

But say the thing isn't as massive, but makes up for it with increased velocity. The total energy is the same, isn't it? Let's increase velocity ten-fold. Now the cue-ball is moving at near escape velocity for the moon's gravity well. Wham. Instant melted rock, I suppose, which, in the coldness of space congeal rapidly enough, becoming meteoroids. How many of them move perpendicular to the vector of the cue-ball, percentage wise? How many of them follow the cue-ball?

Now, increase the mass of the cue-ball as well. What if it isn't silica rock, or even iron, but is solid uranium? Is there enough gravity in the cue-ball to pull more of the moon's bits with it?

What if the thing strikes the moon tangental to the moon's orbit? Do the remnants of the explosion zing away into space, or do some continue to orbit Earth? What if it strikes perpendicular to the plane of that orbit?

And, lastly before I shut up, how much of the initial energy of the cue-ball is lost to the collision? Does the impact slow it enough for it to be deflected from its original trajectory by the Earth, and if so, is it a significant amount?
 

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You might want to check out 'The Hole Man' by Larry Niven.

It ends up dealing with a similar issue.

Mac
 

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Okay.
So in order to destroy the moon, we need to smash it with a huge rock.
Well no, not really. That would be one of the most inefficient uses of energy, i just used an asteroid as an example since that was the largest easily imaginable explosion i had at hand.
Trying to destroy a moon by smashing it with a physical object would be very difficult if not impossible. There's a lot that can go wrong.
If the density of both object is too similar they'll smash together and quickly form a homogenous blob (remember: they behave like liquids). Much of the energy will be lost in deformation, friction etc. ultimately: heat.
If the projectile is too dense it will pass the moon.
If it is not dense enough it will "explode" on contact, i.e. the impact will resort in mostly heat energy.
If it is too slow, the same happens.
If it is too fast, again it would pass right through.
Obviously, the more massive the rock you throw, the bigger the combined gravity you'll have to overcome.
Now, i've not dony any calculations (hah, you'd need a real simulation for that anyway) but i only see two likely scenarios: One, a fast, dense object impacts, passes through, takes a huge spray of moon material with it and leaves the rest behind. Think of a bullet hitting a watermelon style impact.
Ok, *technically* it's an apple.
The other, a slow object impacts, smashing the moon to bits, producing a cone shaped spray of rocks across the solar system that are nicely sorted by size. (small splinters go faster). No handy picture here, Just imagine how that apple would look with a bullet five times the size.
Slowly, or somewhat slowly, breaking apart, i can only see happening if there's some kind of explosion directly inside the moon pushing outwards, not with an impact from the side.

Say one 50k times the size of the "dinosaur" rock. One that is 1.1X10^17 cubic meters, or about 1,300,000 meters in diameter. The moon is 3,480,000 meters in diameter--our cue-ball is about a third as big. This is based on the cue-ball being made of rock the same density as the moon and moving at the above mentioned 20 km/s velocity. I assume a faster moving body, or one more dense might be smaller.
The (newtonian) kinetic energy is 0.5mv², so yes, velocity is very important. However as mentioned above, simply increasing the velocity won't necessarily do the trick.
As for my mention of "slowly" coming apart, I didn't mean leisurely. I meant that I'd like it to come apart, just not immediately become a cloud of dust.
Well the problem with this is that gravity acts as a constant force of acceleration, and even if the acceleration is slow, if it's constant objects pick up sizeable speeds quickly. The number best for vizualising this is the escape velocity. For the moon it's 2,4km/s. Anything slower than that will fall back. unfortunately, 2,4km/s is pretty much immediate cloud of dust velocity.
If the cue-ball moves at 20km/s, then it would take half an hour to cross the diameter of the moon.
Slight miscalculation. The Moon's radius is about 1700km, so crossing the diameter would take less than 3 minutes.
If it hit the moon dead center, then much of that velocity would be absorbed in the collision. But as has been pointed out, if it sufficiently large (or massive) then there is enough energy to squirt moon stuff all over the vicinity.
Well velocity means energy, and energy is never lost, only converted. Depending on a multitude of factors this can either end up as kinetic energy, the kind we want, or heat, the kind we don't want. Unfortunately, heat is by far nature's favorite kind of energy.
But say the thing isn't as massive, but makes up for it with increased velocity. The total energy is the same, isn't it?
Can be. the formula is 0.5mv², so it's directly proportional to mass and squared to velocity.
Let's increase velocity ten-fold.
Then we'll have a hundred times the energy. If we decrease the mass by a factor of a hundred we quickly run into the watermelon-bullet scenario because we have something very small and very fast.
Now the cue-ball is moving at near escape velocity for the moon's gravity well.
Actually, 20km/s already was eight time the escape velocity. ;) Just btw, that number (for the dinosaur killer) isn't totally arbitrary, it's kind of an average of what to expect from an asteroid in our solar system. But this can vary of course, i don't think the story would even need an explanation for that. Maybe the rock is from deepspace. Extremely unlikely but possible.
Wham. Instant melted rock, I suppose,
Yes, lots of it. Vaporized rock even. The kinetic energy of an asteroid of that speed is a lot more than is nessary to melt it.
which, in the coldness of space congeal rapidly enough, becoming meteoroids.
Actually space is not all that cold. Or rather it is cold, but also a very good insulator, being a vacuum after all. Things in space will cool down much much slower than in, say, the sibirian winter chill. However once they did, they'll be a lot colder.
How many of them move perpendicular to the vector of the cue-ball, percentage wise? How many of them follow the cue-ball?
No that's a complicated question i have no idea how to answer truthfully. The majority will follow the bullet like in the apple picture. However how much material flies in which direction depends on pretty much everything, from density to velocity of both objects.
Now, increase the mass of the cue-ball as well. What if it isn't silica rock, or even iron, but is solid uranium? Is there enough gravity in the cue-ball to pull more of the moon's bits with it?
Unless the mass of the projectile is a sizeable fraction of the moons mass, the gravitational pull won't matter. The bits fly in the same direction because that's the direction they got shoved in when they were hit.
What if the thing strikes the moon tangental to the moon's orbit? Do the remnants of the explosion zing away into space, or do some continue to orbit Earth? What if it strikes perpendicular to the plane of that orbit?
The orbit doesn't really matter. You could define the orbital vector as 0 and go from there. I.e. the only rocks that will continue to orbit will be the ones virtually unmoved by the impact. Now, "unmoved" has some leeway since earths gravity will catch even some of the stuff that gets moved, however most will either fall down (on earth) or zing away. Depending on the individual trajectory of course. Since such an impact is very chaotic you'd see some rocks of every kind.
The direction they get moved in doesn't matter either, to orbit, something needs a certain height, vector and velocity. If you change the vector too much they'll no longer orbit. If you slow them down, they fall. If you push them in a different direction they'll fly (spiral) away.
And, lastly before I shut up, how much of the initial energy of the cue-ball is lost to the collision?
Well lost can't happen but it can be converted to heat. And will. How much i can't possibly say. In asbolute terms there will be lots and lots of heat, especially in the place of the original impact, but also everywhere else the moon gets deformed or broken apart. Enough heat to melt and vaporize rocks.
However what percentage of the initial kinetic energy ends up that way i have no idea, and google wasn't informative. I suppose you'd need to ask someone who works with asteroid impact simulations to get an informed answer to that.
Does the impact slow it enough for it to be deflected from its original trajectory by the Earth, and if so, is it a significant amount?
Not really, liquid, remember? Real deflection will not happen, however any parts of the moon will of course have the combined vector of the original orbit and the one imparted by the impact, and bullet would get a push in the direction of the moons orbit as well. How big that effect is would mainly depend on it's speed. The faster it passes the moon the less effect on its vector of course.
Well and i'd think the spread from the impact would be far greater than the effect of the moons orbital vector.
 

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Lhun said:
Ok, *technically* it's an apple.
EdgertonBullet.jpg

Yeag, that works. For purposes of the story, a gradual deformation of the moon is better than an all-at-once disintegration. By gradual, I mean over the period of a day or longer. That parts of the now-destroyed moon are shot out of Earth's gravity well is fine. That parts of it spiral into the Earth is fine, too. The story also depends on significant, ah, disruption to the way of life there.

Slight miscalculation. The Moon's radius is about 1700km, so crossing the diameter would take less than 3 minutes.
Yeah, I'm good at doing that. Oops. Do you think the transit time is appreciably slowed by going through the moon? The copper-jacketed bullet no doubt doesn't notice the apple at all. Is it possible to have a free-roaming object in the galaxy (or from beyond) that is proportionately more dense than the moon? I'm starting to think we'll need something approaching a neutron star in composition.
 

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Yeag, that works. For purposes of the story, a gradual deformation of the moon is better than an all-at-once disintegration. By gradual, I mean over the period of a day or longer. That parts of the now-destroyed moon are shot out of Earth's gravity well is fine. That parts of it spiral into the Earth is fine, too. The story also depends on significant, ah, disruption to the way of life there.
If any gradual deformation is ok i say gow with that. It's just that gradual outward motion is unlikely since there is no outward motion unless its being actively moved by something. So a gradual collapse is much more likely. Though i don't know enough to say how slow it would be. But i guess that's a fine enough detail to fall under artistic license.
Yeah, I'm good at doing that. Oops. Do you think the transit time is appreciably slowed by going through the moon? The copper-jacketed bullet no doubt doesn't notice the apple at all.
Depends mostly on speed and density. The higher the density the less the effect of the moon on the object, likewise with speed.
Is it possible to have a free-roaming object in the galaxy (or from beyond) that is proportionately more dense than the moon? I'm starting to think we'll need something approaching a neutron star in composition.
Probably. No normal matter will be dense enough, even the elements with the highest density aren't that much different to the moon. Not that the moon is especiall dense, it's just that there's not all that mucch variation in the density of normal solids. You could go with something like the matter in the article, dark matter, or just state some kind of exotic (state of) matter. Neutronium would fall under the latter. I don't know if you need to include the object into the story much, if not you could probably best leave it at that. It would be pretty hard to detect anyway, being comparatively small (just remember there was recently found a new planet/planetoid in our own solar system) and dark. Something that doesn't shine is very hard to detect in space.