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davids
01-11-2007, 08:19 PM
So I am lurking in all the political threads-you know-the ones where folks decry Bush and then the others decry the decrying etc and so on. So I am sixty in June-that is the Vietnam thing-I was there. I hate war. Yes I know it is a part of life that we must just deal with. Like the honorable patriot who fights for right and the American Way and all that.

So we need to send more troops? We need to win this thing or some terrible terrorist group will attack the good old U S of A. I do not of course want this to happen-I am a dedicated peacenick-an anti-war kind of guy. I realize also that even peacenicks can fight-after all-I did although I was not a peace-nick at the time-just an eighteen year old kid who thought fighting for right and the American Way-was-well an honorable thing-I still believe this from the bottom of my heart and am still willing to put my life on the line for this country-forget the vericose veins and the age-it is a spiritual thing for me!

So last night while working on writing my stuff-I get tired-which is kind of unusual as I am a night owl and work or do my best stuff at night-I avoid having nightmares that way. Anyway I decide to hit the sack and so I do-unusual all the way around. So there it is again this damn nightmare which I have never gotten rid of. Maybe I don't really want to as this dream always makes me feel horrible but at the same time makes me understand why I am a naive peacenick. So here is the dream

Short and sweet such as it is. Bang-there is this huge explotion. I am face down in the jungle-I have shit in my pants and piss in them as well-scared like you cannot imagine. I speak quietly to my buddy Bob. Bob you alright? What the hell happened. Bob is from Oklahoma-nice guy-my age-with me for the same reasons stated above. Bob is on his back and there is some groaning going on. I reach out my right arm-touch his shoulder-Bob you OK? For some reason I move my hand lower-you know towards his stomach. There is this big fucking hole where it used to be and his guts are starting to blow out. So I start to stick em back in with my right hand-how long I don't have a clue but I am holding em in-just keep moving my hand around his intestines as they sruggle to slip by and keep pushing em back in. It's kind a like trying to stop eels from escaping from his gut. You know they are slippery-slimey animals-can't keep em in your hand for long-they just slime out-that's the way his guts were-like slippery eels. So he is groaning and he starts asking me if I got a strawberry ripple ice-cream cone for him and I don't know what the fuck he is talking about cause I am scared as hell and I got shit and piss in my pants. I keep telling him it'll be alright and for some reason I tell him I'll make sure he gets that strawberry ripple cone-don't worry Bob just hold on I'll get it. So he stops and asks me are you sure and I tell him yah just hold on. Then he stops moving and his guts stop moving and he dies.

I wake up-look at my hand-nothing on it-then I think about strawberry ripple and how I hate strawberry ripple and I hate war and I hate being lied to and should I ever share this with anyone who has not a clue about this kind a shit. Not to say I have not shared this-I have-but with folks who have been there done that. Nobody else-so this is a first.

So I read these things and I think about war and about poiticos and then and now and all that crap and I wonder if it is all worth it. I do not know-but as corny as this all may sound it just makes me sad that folks do not understand that in our world and in theirs over there-well we are not the same and if we are gonna do this thing then damn it let us do it right-as a peacenick-cause of Bob and company and how he died an absolutely useless death and how if he had not died a useless death and the politicos had let us fight the fight we knew we had to to win-well then his death would not have been in vain but it was and that is what makes me so sad and what makes me wonder about over there now and if those kids of ours are just gonna die in vain. See it is the dieing in vain that bothers me-we gotta die sometimes for right and love of country-but in vain-well in vain just makes it evil. Make any sense?

So I am off to dream more dreams and no strawberry ripple-I think butter pecan would be nicer-don't you?

paprikapink
01-11-2007, 08:33 PM
Ah Dave. You've gone right to the heart of the matter.

Bless you and all our soldiers, past and present, for all you've done for us.

Meerkat
01-11-2007, 08:38 PM
Let it go man. It was forty years ago, and none of those were senseless deaths, any more than the deaths at Pork Chop Hill in the 50's were senseless. Sometimes a line has to be drawn that cannot be crossed. The line is in an arbitrary place, and the men sucked up into the maelstrom in that place are arbitrarily unlucky. But it did need to happen. On the other hand, we could be going about everything happening today all wrong. That probably is the case. Today's mess is what to think about, not the past. Bob could have died just as gruesomely in traffic, and that WOULD have been senseless.

StoryG27
01-11-2007, 08:51 PM
Davids, I really don't know how to respond to this, so please forgive me if this comes out all wrong. I am so sorry for what you went through. I am grateful for your sense of honor and your sacrifice, and so sad that you feel it was in vain. My father was in Vietnam, my father-in-law in the Korean War, and my grandfather in WWII.

My husband just returned from a year in Iraq and my brother has about a month left in Afghanistan. I know it's not at all the same, but my husband has nightmares too. And the things he saw and did, and the brothers he lost, well, he doesn't want it to be all in vain either. I don't know what the right political move is. I asked my husband what he thought needed to be done to win, if possible, this war (this was before Bush decided to up the troop level). He said, "They need to let us fight this war they way it needs to be fought. Then we'd get the job done."

Though he's away on training right now, I talked to him on the phone last night, and asked him what he thought of the new plan. He said he hoped it worked. He just wants something to work, some way to win. He said he almost wondered if it shouldn't be a stronger push and he said there better be major adjustments in the rules of engagement. Like you, he just doesn't want all this to have happened in vain. He doesn't want to lose, he gets disheartened to see the faith the American people are losing in this war, and he just wishes the politics and especially the media would stay the hell out of it so the soldiers could do what they're trained to do, and finish what they started.

My husband joined for the same reason as you and your friend. Because he thought it was the right thing to do. He still strongly believes that, but he thinks they (soldiers) are often held back from doing what needs to be done, that they have to fight "on a short leash" against an enemy with no restrictions, no boundaries.

If this new surge of troops is what is to happen, then I, like my husband, hope it works, not just for the soldiers, present and past, and not just for the security of Americans, but also for the Iraqi people.

And for you, I really hope you don't have any dreams about strawberry ripple ice cream again.

davids
01-11-2007, 09:24 PM
Let it go man. It was forty years ago, and none of those were senseless deaths, any more than the deaths at Pork Chop Hill in the 50's were senseless. Sometimes a line has to be drawn that cannot be crossed. The line is in an arbitrary place, and the men sucked up into the maelstrom in that place are arbitrarily unlucky. But it did need to happen. On the other hand, we could be going about everything happening today all wrong. That probably is the case. Today's mess is what to think about, not the past. Bob could have died just as gruesomely in traffic, and that WOULD have been senseless.

I will never ever let it go-Bob could have died in a traffic accident? Get a grip! They were sensless because the politicos held us back and they held the pork chop guys back-hell look at it any way you want and it does not matter a damn it did not need to happen as it did but it did and it did not mean a thing-ask the helicopter pilots on top of the embassy in Saigon-if we don't think about the past-christ we are doomed to repeat it as we are doing-asking me to get over it is condescending to say the least! I posted this simply to share and to say Bob could have died in a traffic accident is casual-cruel-and thoughtless

davids
01-11-2007, 09:30 PM
Davids, I really don't know how to respond to this, so please forgive me if this comes out all wrong. I am so sorry for what you went through. I am grateful for your sense of honor and your sacrifice, and so sad that you feel it was in vain. My father was in Vietnam, my father-in-law in the Korean War, and my grandfather in WWII.

My husband just returned from a year in Iraq and my brother has about a month left in Afghanistan. I know it's not at all the same, but my husband has nightmares too. And the things he saw and did, and the brothers he lost, well, he doesn't want it to be all in vain either. I don't know what the right political move is. I asked my husband what he thought needed to be done to win, if possible, this war (this was before Bush decided to up the troop level). He said, "They need to let us fight this war they way it needs to be fought. Then we'd get the job done."

Though he's away on training right now, I talked to him on the phone last night, and asked him what he thought of the new plan. He said he hoped it worked. He just wants something to work, some way to win. He said he almost wondered if it shouldn't be a stronger push and he said there better be major adjustments in the rules of engagement. Like you, he just doesn't want all this to have happened in vain. He doesn't want to lose, he gets disheartened to see the faith the American people are losing in this war, and he just wishes the politics and especially the media would stay the hell out of it so the soldiers could do what they're trained to do, and finish what they started.

My husband joined for the same reason as you and your friend. Because he thought it was the right thing to do. He still strongly believes that, but he thinks they (soldiers) are often held back from doing what needs to be done, that they have to fight "on a short leash" against an enemy with no restrictions, no boundaries.

If this new surge of troops is what is to happen, then I, like my husband, hope it works, not just for the soldiers, present and past, and not just for the security of Americans, but also for the Iraqi people.

And for you, I really hope you don't have any dreams about strawberry ripple ice cream again.

It is not a question of not being the right thing to do-your husband bless his heart are the ones I dream about-we were held back-he was held back-let us/them do the damn job and the Macnamaras or whoever the hell they may be at any given time should get behind the troops in a supportive fashion and not behind in the form of cowardice-the ones who shout the loudest are the ones who are 100 yards back and crying for their momy-the ones that are the so-called peace lovers-they are the ones I want standing at my side in a fight-they may love peace and that is why they are willing to die for it-not to stand and shout but to stand and deliver-to love peace and be willing to die for it but anybody who dies in vain is not a fool but being tricked by the fool to die in vain-there in lies the sin-thanks and thanks to your folks who fought and your man who has fought and to there humanity and their guts and shame on the senders of men and women who send them for pseudo purple mountain majestys to die in vain and for absolutely nothing at all-luv and peace to the peacemakers and to you both-thanks again Dave

Little Red Barn
01-11-2007, 09:34 PM
Sorry Dave, :Hug2: feel better, rest comfortably.

Meerkat
01-11-2007, 09:34 PM
You missed my point about Bob. IF he died in a traffic accident THAT would have been senseless. I was saying it was not senseless... And I still hold that you need to let go of it. It's horrible, it's NOT senseless, and you need to let go of it nonetheless.

Meerkat
01-11-2007, 10:10 PM
David, I'm sending you a pm--it should be there in a moment....

Peace, out.

giftedrhonda
01-11-2007, 10:15 PM
((hugs)) it's hard when nightmares of the past plague us today. I haven't experienced that depth of pain, but I'm sorry for you, nonetheless. I hope you can find the peace you desire and deserve.

davids
01-11-2007, 10:31 PM
Thanks folks-and a special thanks to gclare-for your thoughts and wishes. I do not have the nightmare as often as I did-so-I s'pose getting over it is in the cards. The little thing I posted was really not to talk about the dream-but rather the frustration I have over the posts I have been reading-fight not fight-withdraw-not withdraw-bad-good-blah blah blah-if we are in a fight then-and that was the hoped for reference to the uselessness in my opinion of a lot of combat troops lost or injured in wars where the politicos would not let us fight the fight we had to to win. So in this context I feel the fight was in fact in vain. This is the greatest nation on the face of the planet-perfect? Hell no-but when the so called bosses ignore reality and the folks that choose or are forced to fight for peace-God bless em-are smattered into blobs of useless guts or killed-then for right or wrong-or for whatever-it hurts me and it is sad.

Romantic thoughts? Perhaps-but nevertheless mine and honest and the peacenicks will fight and they are my brothers and sisters-it just flat pisses me off-I admit in a rather simplistic kind of way-when the war mongers scream and yell-but at the same time are standing way way back of the fight and just flat don't get it-never will-and as hard as it may sound-they will always always be the first to cry for their mommy in a fight-not that that is wrong-for I have done the same I suppose in one form or another-but in all humility-when it counted I stood to be counted and did not run-scared as shit that I was and am for the kids doing the same for our country at this moment and in the past-there I am done and as gclare said so well-peace, out!

davids
01-11-2007, 10:34 PM
Maybe this says it better

Upon the Patriot's Heart

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A woman’s wants
A man undone
To fight the bitter fight
Of one plus one
For together we must
Break the bank of trust

Our years to years
From days to days
Valor dogged valor
A child sent to brave
Some purpose glory shore
To fight for right and such

Then coffin time
A flag draped crime
To die for naught but grime
And folly yet to make the name
Of patriots who never were

A woman’s wants
A mother’s child
A life without a cause

Shall be of such
Immortal pain
For others sinful gain

That wars be fought
In righteous might
For valor kingdom come

Yet lies to make our children die
For naught but grime
And folly’s laid
Upon the Patriots heart
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