What is Humility vs Self-Confidence?

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aruna

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janetbellinger said:
I have read a lot of posts about the importance of being humble, but as my husband points out, you need to reach a certain stature before you can afford to be humble. For ordinary folk, being humble will only result in people believing you when you say you're not so great. You have to reach a certain fame before you can say, "It was nothing," and have people say, "Isn't she humble?"


Janet, I disagree with you here. Humility is not the same as lack of confidence or self-esteem. It's a fine line to walk, yet important.

And being humble does not mean you go around saying you're not so great or putting yourself down. It's more of an attitude; when I finsih a book, for instance, if I am pleased with it I am truly awed by the process by which it came to me; I feel it is a gift, a miracle, and I feel humbled by it ; I feel "I did not really do it."

If you pretend to be more than you are as a way of getting attention, on the other hand, more often than not that backfires on you, because your bluster is not sincere and not based on any true achievement or talent; it's just ego, and it always rings false. In my eyes, it's important to be sincere no matter where you stand on the publishing ladder, at the bottom or at the top.

If you are truly talented that will shine through and others will notice and respond to it.
 
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Elektra

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aruna said:
If you pretend to be more than you are as a way of getting attention, on the other hand, more often than not that backfires on you, because your bluster is not sincere and not based on any true achievement or talent; it's just ego, and it always rings false. In my eyes, it's important to be sincere no matter where you stand on the publishing ladder, at the bottom or at the top.

Is it pretending to be more than you are, or truly thinking you're more than you are?
 

janetbellinger

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To me, if a person felt pleased with her book, it would be acknowledging they had done a good job on it and that would not be humble. I don't think a person has to be humble in order to avoid being a braggart. There is an inbetween, where a person is able to take credit due but does not brag about herself. A lot of people will treat others in the way that person presents herself. So, if she presents herself as ubnworthy, she will be treated that way. And I know that's not what you mean. We're using two different definitions of humility. Of course a person shouldn't brag, but is it wrong for her to take credit for a job well done?

And being humble does not mean you go around saying you're not so great or putting yourself down. It's more of an attitude; when I finsih a book, for instance, if I am pleased with it I am truly awed by the process by which it came to me; I feel it is a gift, a miracle, and I feel humbled by it ; I feel "I did not really do it."

If you pretend to be more than you are as a way of getting attention, on the other hand, more often than not that backfires on you, because your bluster is not sincere and not based on any true achievement or talent; it's just ego, and it always rings false. In my eyes, it's important to be sincere no matter where you stand on the publishing ladder, at the bottom or at the top.

If you are truly talented that will shine through and others will notice and respond to it.[/quote]
 

maestrowork

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aruna said:
If you are truly talented that will shine through and others will notice and respond to it.

A wise person once said to me, "Never be ashamed of your abilities."

It doesn't mean you have to put down others and make yourself seem better than everyone else. What it means is that you should be proud of who you are and what you accomplish.

My sig says it all.
 

janetbellinger

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That is what I was trying to say, too.

maestrowork said:
A wise person once said to me, "Never be ashamed of your abilities."

It doesn't mean you have to put down others and make yourself seem better than everyone else. What it means is that you should be proud of who you are and what you accomplish.

My sig says it all.
 

aruna

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maestrowork said:
A wise person once said to me, "Never be ashamed of your abilities."

It doesn't mean you have to put down others and make yourself seem better than everyone else. What it means is that you should be proud of who you are and what you accomplish.

My sig says it all.

A VERY wise person said to me: Your abilities are not your own. They are God's gift to you You did not create them; you do not know where they came from. Be a vessel through which they can flow. Let them shine through you, and give thanks to God. That is how they grow in a way you could never, ever have accomplish. That is the way of the true artist.

I do not agree with your sentence I have bolded. When I feel myself being proud of who I am and what ui accomplish I know I'm in the danger zone. When thag happens I actualy block creativity.

This of course is a subject and a thread all to itself: maybe it should be split off form this one!
 

aruna

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(A PS to my last post - of course,the word God is debatable. But both the "wise person" i mentioned and I believe that God is not some entitiy up in the sky, but lives inside us as our highest being.) So the word "Highest Self" can be substitued for "that" word here... the highest self being unkown to us, so that we cannot take credit for its gifts.

So you see, I do have my own very personal definition of humble and humility. For me there can be no true art without humility.
 

maestrowork

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We are dangerously close to religious territory. ;)

(and we are so hijacking this thread)

Anyway, everyone is different spiritually. I think your feelings and beliefs are very valid. I have my own beliefs -- to me, we are all "God" or pieces of "God" or image of "God" or however we want to call it. So to be proud of ourselves and our accomplishment is to be thankful. By "proud" I don't mean being obnoxious about it. There's a line between being proud and being egotistical and obnoxious.

Personally, I don't take credit for my gifts or things that are bestowed to me. At the very least, I thank my parents. I had nothing to do with my talent or intelligence or anything. What I do take credit for is how I strive to be a better person and how I try to use what I have to help others. I don't always succeed and there are times when I am extremely selfish because no one else would give me the time of day. And I'm not proud of that. I have still so much to learn about life. That's why I am not a "wise man" yet. A wise ass maybe. ;)

I think we can't really fake humility. We really have to feel it and know it. Everyone's definition is different. But I am not the one who believes that we should beat up on ourselves because there will be no light when we do. I also don't believe we should deliberately hide our lights. I do believe in letting our light shine through without us keep telling others how brilliant we are. We are brilliant because we just are, not because we say we are. I think my point is that there's nothing we can do about our light instead of embracing it and letting it shine, so others will see as well. And we benefit from other people's light, too. And the world will truly be a brighter place when we do.

I first heard of the quote in my sig from the movie Akeelah and the Bees and I thought it was a marvelous movie because I identify with the themes. You'll have to see it to know what I'm talking about. That story has oodles of humility to go around.
 
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aruna

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maestrowork said:
I think we can't really fake humility. We really have to feel it and know it. Everyone's definition is different. But I am not the one who believes that we should beat up on ourselves because there will be no light when we do. I also don't believe we should deliberately hide our lights. I do believe in letting our light shine through without us keep telling others how brilliant we are. We are brilliant because we just are, not because we say we are. I think my point is that there's nothing we can do about our light instead of embracing it and letting it shine, so others will see as well. And we benefit from other people's light, too. And the world will truly be a brighter place when we do.

I first heard of the quote in my sig from the movie Akeelah and the Bees and I thought it was a marvelous movie because I identify with the themes. You'll have to see it to know what I'm talking about. That story has oodles of humility to go around.

Yes, that is similar how I feel about it. Humility is for me a very positive quality, something that goes along with letting your light shine THROUGH you.

The inspiration for my book The Speech of Angels actually came form my gretest inspiration regarding creativity. I had a friend, a Japanese woman called Yoriko. She was a vioinist in my first husband's orchestra (he was a cellist). Yoriko had played violin form the age of 4 and was incredibly gifted - a child prodigy. And yet she always struggled with hter art. The more she tried to play brilliantly, the more she was dissatisfied with what came out.

And then she learned the secret - simply to let go and let the music flow through her. The way she descibed t was that in trying to be brilliant (which in her casemeant being a viriuoso violinist), her ego got in the way. It was only when she stepped back and let the music flow through her instead of from her that she learned to produce the most beautiful music. Another mistake she made was using music to become great, instead of giving herself to music, losing herself in it. It's that losing oneself in art which I believe is the secret of all great artists, no matter what the discipline.

I'm reminded of Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet: your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself. They come through you, but not from you, And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you....

Substitute music, writing, art, dance for children and it's the same....

Yoriko was killed in a horrible car crash at the age of 32. That was many years now but she has remained an inspiration to me (her photo is on my wall), and when it came my turn to write I remembered her words, took them to heart, and found that she was right. The more I step back and allow my story to tell itself, the more it is infused with that elsuive factor X. The story writes itself. I can't explain it; and I did not make it.My job is to work hard, to get up at 4 a.m. if need be to write, to revise and revise and keep at it till the work is as perfect as I can get it.

These are the dynamics that give me my understanding of humility.

Yoriko was one of the humblest people I've ever met; but her music was sublime and everyone who heard it was simply blown away by it. I believe that truly great artists are always humble - whether famous or not. Fame has nothing to do with it.

The weird thingis: she had a very valuable violin, which she left to her best friend, another Japanese violinist named Yukiko. One week after Yoriko died, Yukiko was also killed in a car crash.There was a radio programme in their honour, which I stil listen to sometimes.
 
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janetbellinger

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I seem to remember a Sunday School song we sung as children about not hiding your light under a bushel but letting it shine.
I believe God wants us to take pride in what we do. This is not boastful pride but a quiet satisfaction that yes, I did that well. I don't believe we can be love others unless we first love ourselves, and that includes loving our work. Remember, I am not talking about egotism, but simple pride.


nsong
aruna said:
(A PS to my last post - of course,the word God is debatable. But both the "wise person" i mentioned and I believe that God is not some entitiy up in the sky, but lives inside us as our highest being.) So the word "Highest Self" can be substitued for "that" word here... the highest self being unkown to us, so that we cannot take credit for its gifts.

So you see, I do have my own very personal definition of humble and humility. For me there can be no true art without humility.
 

aruna

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Oh dear! I do NOT like humility to be pitched against self-confidence! I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. For me it is humility vs pride.

Self-confidence it not the same as pride.
Humility is not the same as lack of self-deprecation.
 
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aruna

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janetbellinger said:
I seem to remember a Sunday School song we sung as children about not hiding your light under a bushel but letting it shine.
I believe God wants us to take pride in what we do. This is not boastful pride but a quiet satisfaction that yes, I did that well. I don't believe we can be love others unless we first love ourselves, and that includes loving our work. Remember, I am not talking about egotism, but simple pride.


nsong

You can't speak for anyone else, Janet. I think each of us needs to find out for her/himslef what "God wants". For me, it is not pride. In my understanding, and experience, pride goes before a fall - always. It is humility - the knowledge that I cannot create, I am helpless within myself, that makes me receptive for the best, most powerful stories. And I am not even permitted to be proud that I am humble!;)
And humility does not mean hiding your light under a bushel. I donl;t know where that idea came from. You can let your light shine: what I guard against in myslef is saying "It's mine! I made it! I did it! 'Ray me!"

I do think we have a different definion of pride; the "simple satisfaction" that you mention I would not label pride; I call it profound gratitude, which is always humble.

On the other hand, we also have a different defintiion of bragging, I found Jeff's behaviour on this forum to be extremely "bragatorious"; you did not.
 
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aruna

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janetbellinger said:
I seem to remember a Sunday School song we sung as children about not hiding your light under a bushel but letting it shine.
I believe God wants us to take pride in what we do. This is not boastful pride but a quiet satisfaction that yes, I did that well. I don't believe we can be love others unless we first love ourselves, and that includes loving our work. Remember, I am not talking about egotism, but simple pride.


nsong

See, there we have it. For me, pride is always ego.

As for loving oneself - it's a very fine line, and I find it a bit of a cliche, simuilar to the cliche "believe in yourself".

Love is indeed the greatest power; Love is the creator. But I can't say I love my litte "me-ness", which is rather small and paltry and needs to disappear into Love, and certainly is not the creator of my novels!

But we are going into very metaphysical territory here, which I my home terrain, but it's not appropriate for this board.

All I can say is that writing is a voyage of self-discovery, and it's a perfect joy to find out what works for me - and what doesn't. Pride definitely doesn;t.
 
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Cathy C

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Now see, I guess I'm different. I find "humility" in an author to be somewhat distressing. It implies no effort on his/her part. Authors WORK when they write. Those who strive to improve better their talent. I've worked my fuzzy little tail off to learn how to write. Yes, some of it comes naturally--I seem to be savant in using pretty decent grammar, even if I don't always know WHY it works, or what the elements of the grammar are called.

Pride IS self-confidence to me. I've worked hard and I've reaped the benefits. I earned it. Since I don't get original ideas that magically appear from the blue like so many authors, I have to struggle to come up with worlds and characters and plots. It sometimes takes me WEEKS to create a cast of characters. They don't appear in my head fully formed. They're carefully plotted on paper. Self-confidence helps with my struggle. I've done it, so I can do it again. To say that "something flows through me" is to throw a soping wet blanket on my roaring blaze of confidence. Nothing flows through me. There's no muse to feel and give rein. Humility would take away the pride in my fight and the hours spent reading the Chicago Manual of Style, and poring over a thesaurus.

Sorry, just can't do it. If it's ego to say I've created a damned good book, I'll just have to bear that label. :Shrug:
 

aruna

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:) I knew I'd get some flak for sticking up for humility!

Just to make this clear: I am not a lazy writer, I get up at 4 am each and every day when I am writing a novel - because there is no time during the day - and put everything I have into it - everything. Blood, sweat and tears. When my agent tells me to revise, I do it right away, as often as she wants, so that she has called me "amazing" three times in the last few weeks, for my quick and thorough revisions.

But this is just the way I write. I feel that thes story is there, fully formed by my subconscious; all I have to do is discover it. And that voyage of dicovery is so wonderful, thirlling, exciting; and what I find there so throroughly fullfilling, that I cannot take the credit for it. It is beyond me.

This attititude comes from decades of immersion in Asian perception, which in many ways is the diametrical opposite of Western conventional wisdom. You will often find there that artists work anonymously, or at least did, traditionally. They feel that they are simply a vessel for their art. I know it does not correspond with the Western way of thinking; but please do not call humility lazy - or any other names - because it is certainly not! Working this way demands of me my very, very best. And I give my very, very best.

I am simply presenting another way of working creativly. And as I said, it works for me - very well indeed. All as a result of Janet saying that a writer cannot be humble. I disagree - for the above reasons. There are many ways of approacihing creative work - mine is one of them. I learnt this approach from Yoriko, a musical genius. It worked for her too.
 
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I've heard it said before that humility is 'seeing ourselves the way God sees us.' In otherwords, an truly honest appraisal of ourselves and our abilities--and one which most people fall short of. We either disparage ourselves in the attempt to appear humble (which is pride), or we behave arrogantly in the name of self-expression and self-confidence.

Of course, I'm straying into 'religious' territory here, but personally I think you can't talk of humility without referring to the standard. And for me, that standard is Christ. He didn't go around depreciating Himself verbally, but He did say the truth. He said that He could do nothing unless it came from the Father; at the same time He says to us "Apart from Me you can do nothing." I think humility comes as we embrace that truth.
 
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I'm not so sure we are disagreeing with each other here. I think no one is saying that you ought to hide your light from the world. Pride in your own work, isn't the problem. What I do believe is that just because you accomplish something amazing, it doesn't make you more special than those who you think haven't. Because chances are they too have accomplished something else, that is just as incredible, just in a different way.
 

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aruna said:
If you pretend to be more than you are as a way of getting attention, on the other hand, more often than not that backfires on you, because your bluster is not sincere and not based on any true achievement or talent; it's just ego, and it always rings false.

I agree. Bluster and chronic self-promotion can be signs of serious low self-esteem.
 

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aruna said:
This attititude comes from decades of immersion in Asian perception, which in many ways is the diametrical opposite of Western conventional wisdom. You will often find there that artists work anonymously, or at least did, traditionally.

I'm glad you added the "at least did, traditionally" part in your post, because some of the most pretentious people I've known have been Japanese.

I still would disagree with you on your idea of "Asian perception" and how it differs from that of others' with regard to pride vs. humility. Most cultures place value on humbleness--even ours. Look at how self-effacing all of our comic book superheroes are in their everyday guises. You don't get much more humble than Peter Parker.

Also, status is enormously important in Japanese society and always has been. My blood still boils when I recall professors at my university in Japan shouting across the library at each other--that "quiet, this is a library"-thing was only for regular people.
 

maestrowork

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I guess we all have different understanding and interpretations of words. For me, "pride" doesn't necessarily mean "ego" or "braggart." It doesn't mean snobbishness or condescension. However, how others perceive you is a different matter. Some people will dislike you simply by an announcement of "I did this." Getting a book published, having a baby, getting promoted at work. There's nothing you can do to control what other people think of you. What you can control is how you think of yourself.

There's a line between being self-confident, embracing your own light and being a braggart. There's a balance.

It's funny, Sharon, that you mentioned Asian culture. I was raised to "never brag, never told anyone about your great deeds and wonderfulness, and always be humble." I think there's absolute virtue in humbleness, and that we don't need other's approval or praises to be the light.

But I think the Chinese, for example, having been suppressed for so long and being subjected this philosophy, have become too withdrawn and repressive. Especially in that culture, it seems to me that the idea is not that everyone is the same, but that someone (be it an Emperor, a head of state, Chairman Mao) are the supreme being and everyone should be and are just ordinary. That's exactly how one man can control a billion. That kind of thinking has been ingrained in the Chinese culture for over 5000 years. There's certainly a class system, even if it's not explicitly defined: That one is only born special and divine; the rest is merely regular no matter what you do, and you can only rise above if someone above you allows it (e.g. many great men were only great because they were lifted by the Emperor).

As a very young, modern Chinese, I was totally confused by this feeling that I could do more.

I have struggled with this for a long time; while growing up, I yearned for my parents' praises, to let me know that I'd done something good, that I had pleased them. For someone like me, who believed that, from a young age, that he was a bit different, it was very difficult to "conform" and just be like everyone else. We don't encourage individualism. Duties and social obligations are more important. We believe in hard work but until someone else tells us "good job" we're just ordinary -- nothing, even. There's nothing special about us. Our light is all about being a good person and conform to the society and do our duties: be a good parent, be a good son, be a good worker.

As I grew up, and after I came to the US, I realized how psychologically and spiritually limiting that is. To feel that you're always less than who you are, that there's always someone bigger, better, and that you're only a small part of something, and that you're no different than everyone else. I find that philosophy suffocating and oppressive. It's not to say it's wrong and I'm right. But like you said, each of us should find our own ways, and what works for us. Clearly the Asian philosophy did not work for me.

Again, some people may see me as a braggart and an egotist. I can't really change other's perception. What I can change, however, is how I perceive myself and I how I always try to be better and be true to myself. That, I think, is what I'd call "pride." Not just be thankful, but be glad and proud of who we are and not let anyone else tell us otherwise. That is the meaning of "pride" to me.
 
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janetbellinger

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I still don't see what is wrong with having pride in a job well done. Pride does not mean the same thing as being boastful of feeling superior. Pride is just giving yourself a pat on the shoulder or accepting one quietly from another person. It is not bragging.

wr
aruna said:
Oh dear! I do NOT like humility to be pitched against self-confidence! I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. For me it is humility vs pride.

Self-confidence it not the same as pride.
Humility is not the same as lack of self-deprecation.
 

maestrowork

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As children, we were taught to say "that's nothing; I didn't do much; I could do better" whenever someone told us what a good job we did. After a while, you really do believe that you're never going to be good enough. If I got a 97 instead of 100, I would be so shamed. You can only feel good about yourself if you are the best.

I remember watching Joy Luck Club and laughed my ass off during the scene where the mother brought out her best dish but instead said, "This is horrible." But the daughter's Caucasian boyfriend didn't understand and said, "It's not bad at all; all you need is some soy sauce." It's funny because it's true.
 

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maestrowork said:
As children, we were taught to say "that's nothing; I didn't do much; I could do better" whenever someone told us what a good job we did.
These days, maybe in reaction to those days, it's all about boosting self esteem.

Children are extravagantly praised not only for their efforts, but also for their accomplishments - even if those accomplishments are less than successful, to put it kindly. It's well intentioned - nobody wants to crush a child's ego, but it has resulted in a generation somewhat lacking in critical ability, who smugly believe everything they do is superlative and beyond reproach.

Not all of them, of course. Some of my best friends are youngsters.
 

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What is Humility Vs. Self-confidence

When you use vs. it implies one or the other but not both. But humility and self-confidence are not mutually exclusive.

Arrogant is one antonym of humble or having humility. I ask, can you not have self-confidence without being arrogant? Not everyone does, but it is possible.

The antonyms of self-confident are: diffident, humble, insecure, meek, unself-confident, unsure.

I propose, therefore, that it is the degree of one's self-confidence and the attitude that one displays to others that makes one either humble or arrogant. You can be confident in your own abilities without being arrogant. So it seems reasonable to me that one can be both self-confident and humble at the same time.
 
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