US Military Can o Worms Thread

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MattW

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Lots of developments in recent days.

1 - President Bush calling for a long-term plan from the new SecDef on potentially expanding the US military forces, active and reserve. Post-Rumsfeld, this is a good thing. Rummy pushed for more reliance on SpecOps and high tech, not main battle forces, and certainly not preparing for protracted urban fighting.

2 - Options are being considered for short-term "surge" in Iraq to quell violence. Many critics (including generals) claim it wouldn't work toward keeping an enduring peace, and could possibly "break" US forces by straining the Reserve and Guard service paradigms. All while funding for equipment is lagging behind the hard wear and tear due to the extended conflict.

3 - General Abayized tenders his retirement papers effective in March.
 

tourdeforce

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What's your name, soldier? Consider yourself on KP duty for the foreseeable future. Start peeling those potatoes and enjoy.
 

Unique

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I'm curious to where they think they're going to get more soldiers.

:::sniff, sniff:::

Anyone smell the draft?
 

MattW

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Unique said:
I'm curious to where they think they're going to get more soldiers.
Short-term: we're already got em.

Long term: new recruiting tactics, changes to incentives (college etc). It's meant to take place over years - up to 2 to get a unit up to front-line combat readiness.

:::sniff, sniff:::

Anyone smell the draft?
Nope. That's the smell of paranoia. Easy mistake.
 

Unique

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Well there are some people dumb enough to buy into 'incentives'.

Yeah - we'll pay for 4 years of college - if you survive. But some people like to gamble.
 

SC Harrison

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Depending on the specific mission(s), a short term increase in troop levels is not necessarily a bad idea. But if used to augment "business as usual" operations to enhance security patrols (targets) or a bolder show of strength (intimidation), hell no.
 

aliajohnson

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SC Harrison said:
Depending on the specific mission(s), a short term increase in troop levels is not necessarily a bad idea. But if used to augment "business as usual" operations to enhance security patrols (targets) or a bolder show of strength (intimidation), hell no.

Yes and no. Business as usual--definitely a bad idea. And one I fear will continue. Show of strength--it can be effective. That's why you see six cops pulling over one car. Overwhelming show of strength makes people think twice before resisting. Unfortunately, it may be too late for this tactic. :Shrug: Freaking Bush and cronies. grrrrr.
 

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aliajohnson said:
Not so much dumb as young.

Also, in my opinion, poor. For a lot of people, this is the only way to ever be able to finance their education.
 

SC Harrison

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aliajohnson said:
Overwhelming show of strength makes people think twice before resisting.

Here's the thing—insurgencies succeed by taking advantage of predictability and logistics problems that affect large units.

So, any additional (temporary) troops need to be highly mobile to take advantage of the insurgents trying to take advantage of the old troops and security set-ups. They need to have zero (none, nada, nathan) contact with any indigs before and after engaging, which means no cooks, no garbagemen, no contractors, no prearranged supplies, and absolutely no public announcements.

Intimidation means very little to an insurgent, because the more targets the more impact his activities have. Intimidation comes from not knowing what the hell just happened, and wondering if they have a problem within their own ranks.
 

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blacbird said:
I thought "Shock and Awe" was supposed to do that.

caw

That was--Look at our fancy streamlined military! Look how fast and cool we are! But it wasn't a show of numbers, it was showing off. I know, I know . . . Bush showing off? Hard to imagine. ;)


SC Harrison said:
Here's the thing—insurgencies succeed by taking advantage of predictability and logistics problems that affect large units.

So, any additional (temporary) troops need to be highly mobile to take advantage of the insurgents trying to take advantage of the old troops and security set-ups. They need to have zero (none, nada, nathan) contact with any indigs before and after engaging, which means no cooks, no garbagemen, no contractors, no prearranged supplies, and absolutely no public announcements.

Intimidation means very little to an insurgent, because the more targets the more impact his activities have. Intimidation comes from not knowing what the hell just happened, and wondering if they have a problem within their own ranks.


Insurgents--or whatever one wishes to call them--will take advantage of any weakness. A small number of units would have its own set of problems. Again, I don't know that a show of strength would do any good at this late date, it was just something to consider.
 
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blacbird said:
I thought "Shock and Awe" was supposed to do that.

caw

It did.

We rocked the house.

Took over the whole country in like no time.

And then it went bad...

:cry:

Oh well....

:Shrug:

Doesn't change the fact that shock and awe was cool.

Although, I must admit in the interest of full disclosure....

I thought it would be cooler.

I expected ....ahhh...I don't know what.

Maybe to be sitting and watching and going "Whoa!! Whoa!!"

Instead I was like..."That was pretty cool I guess."

Maybe shock and awe wasn't that great.

But...the job was done.

And then undone.
 

MattW

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billythrilly7th said:
Doesn't change the fact that shock and awe was cool.

Although, I must admit in the interest of full disclosure....

I thought it would be cooler.

I expected ....ahhh...I don't know what.
Saddam being propelled out of his spider hole and into orbit by a CIA tampered super-burrito?

"Holy shirt! That was freakin AWEsome!"
 

blacbird

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billythrilly7th said:
It did.

We rocked the house.

Took over the whole country in like no time.

And then it went bad...

:cry:

Oh well....

:Shrug:

Doesn't change the fact that shock and awe was cool.

Although, I must admit in the interest of full disclosure....

I thought it would be cooler.

I expected ....ahhh...I don't know what.

Maybe to be sitting and watching and going "Whoa!! Whoa!!"

Instead I was like..."That was pretty cool I guess."

Maybe shock and awe wasn't that great.

But...the job was done.

And then undone.

The only part I disagree with you about is "the job was done." It wasn't, wasn't anywhere near being done, and we had ample reason to know it wasn't done, and wouldn't be merely through such pyrotechnics.

I had misgivings about the Iraq invasion from the get-go, but when it became clear we were going to do it, a month or so before we did, I (like Colin Powell, then Sec. of Defense) wanted nothing except that we go in there with plenty enough stuff to do the job. When Rumsfeld announced that we were going to go in with "Shock and Awe" (and that was his own personal phrase), to defeat the baddies with bright flashy lights and big noises, I knew in my bone marrow that we were in deep dark fetid sloth pucky.

Thirty-odd years ago I witnessed plenty of Shock and Awe in Vietnam, and boy, that sure did the job, didn't it?

Guess what? We're still in deep dark fetid sloth pucky, now almost four years fermented.

Sleep well, Thrillsy.

caw
 
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SC Harrison

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blacbird said:
I had misgivings about the Iraq invasion from the get-go, but when it became clear we were going to do it, a month or so before we did, I (like Colin Powell, then Sec. of Defense) wanted nothing except that we go in there with plenty enough stuff to do the job. When Rumsfeld announced that we were going to go in with "Shock and Awe" (and that was his own personal phrase), to defeat the baddies with bright flashy lights and big noises, I knew in my bone marrow that we were in deep dark fetid sloth pucky.

Before my daughter's boyfriend deployed to Iraq with the 82d, I sat him down and told him a few things. About how the first Gulf War went so smoothly, but this one would not. I told him if we didn't draw out the Iraqi military and destroy them on the field of battle, we would end up having to fight them in the streets. I also told him if we were still there when his tour ended, the mission had failed and he needed to get the hell out.

It didn't, we are, and he did.
 

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James D. Macdonald

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Not to worry. Bush has it all figured out. He's going to recruit foreign nationals into the Ameican Army.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/26/news/military.php
WASHINGTON: The armed forces, already struggling to meet recruiting goals, are considering expanding the number of noncitizens in the ranks, including disputed proposals to open recruiting stations overseas and put more immigrants on a faster track to U.S. citizenship if they volunteer, according to Pentagon officials.

Foreign citizens' serving in the U.S. military is a highly charged issue, which could expose the Pentagon to criticism that it is essentially using mercenaries to defend the country. Other analysts voice concern that a large contingent of noncitizens under arms could jeopardize national security or reflect badly on Americans' willingness to serve in uniform.

Someone should tell that moron Bush that The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire isn't supposed to be an instruction book.
 

MattW

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The armed forces have always let immigrants enlist - but the numbers are low.

Foreign recruiting stations? Not a good idea.

Putting them at the Mexican border? Great idea!
 

badducky

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Imagine a fantasy world wherein troop levels are not decided by politicians, but by generals...

Whenever a troop level decision is being made, and the general says one thing while the politician says another, I'm going to side with the general.

Generals are only as good as their victories. I respect Abizaid as a person, and I think he was given an impossible task under Rumsfeld's leadership. However, the taint of Rumsfeld must be washed away.

New leaders who didn't build their duties and loyalties around Rumsfeld will -- I hope -- re-invigorate this awful war.

And hopefully our politicians will stop reading polls about troop levels and listen to generals instead.
 
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