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Vincent
12-14-2006, 12:36 PM
US state board to discuss Harry Potter appeal in public

The Associated Press
Published: December 12, 2006


ATLANTA: The state Board of Education will decide Wednesday whether to keep Harry Potter books on library shelves in one suburban Atlanta school district, and the matter will be discussed in public rather than behind closed doors as previously planned.

The board will consider an appeal by parent Laura Mallory who is upset that the Gwinnett County school board voted to keep the best-selling books in its schools, despite her claims that the books indoctrinate children in pagan religion.

The state board originally had planned to discuss Mallory's appeal on Thursday in an executive session. However, after The Associated Press filed a formal protest with Attorney General Thurbert Baker over those plans, state school officials decided to move the discussion to a public forum Wednesday afternoon.

Superintendent Kathy Cox and board members decided to move the meeting "to err on the side of openness," state Department of Education spokesman Dana Tofig said.
The state board historically has talked about appeals of local board decisions in executive sessions, a closed meeting held before the board's public monthly meeting. Those appeals typically deal with personnel issues or student discipline, both of which are exempt from open meetings laws. Other matters that can be discussed by the board in private include real estate acquisitions and pending or potential litigation.

Tofig admitted the Harry Potter appeal is an unusual matter to come before the board.
AP filed a letter of protest with the attorney general on Monday, claiming the Harry Potter appeal did not fall into any of the protected categories under the state's open meetings laws.
It is only appropriate to discuss the subject in public, said Hollie Manheimer, executive director of the Georgia First Amendment Foundation.

"This is just the kind of issue for which the Open Meetings Act exists — to enable the public to have oversight of these very important policy decisions involving our children," Manheimer said.
A hearing officer has recommended that the state board uphold the Gwinnett board's decision to keep the books on shelves. Mallory, of Loganville, has worked more than a year to try to get the popular novels pulled from schools because of their references to witchcraft. It is not apparent how much discussion there will be of the appeal before the state board votes.

Mallory did not immediately return repeated calls for comment Monday and Tuesday.

Gwinnett County school board officials have said the books are good tools for encouraging children to read and for sparking creativity and imagination. Officials have said banning all books with references to witchcraft would mean mainstays like "MacBeth" and "Cinderella" would have to go.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/12/america/NA_GEN_US_Harry_Potter_Protest.php

Sean D. Schaffer
12-14-2006, 12:55 PM
<rant>Wow, that is just... bad. How does one justify taking out all books that mention witchcraft? That's just wrong. Whatever happened to Freedom of the Press in the United States?

I can understand, to some extent, the person's beef with witchcraft, but to try to ban a series of books because they mention it, in my opinion is downright stupid. I'm sure the board has much better things to do--and more important things to think about--than whether or not books mentioning witchcraft should be allowed on library shelves.

This is what I do not like about some people and their viewpoints. They believe that a child cannot differentiate between fact and fiction. I sometimes wonder if people with that attitude can differentiate between fact and fiction.</rant>


Okay, rant over. Carry on.

seun
12-14-2006, 02:49 PM
People like that shouldn't be allowed to have children.

J.S Greer
12-14-2006, 02:52 PM
Good lord, its a book...people suck.

JimmyB27
12-14-2006, 02:55 PM
I think someone should log a complaint against the Narnia books as they indoctrinate people into the Christian religion.

Isn't the US supposed to be secular?

ATP
12-14-2006, 04:01 PM
Simply put, she's just one of the US's crackpots or nutters that we so often read about, and the popular press loves so much. Lest people here think that I am biased, there have been some nutters along the same lines in the UK and Australia. Yet, at least in the popular press, the US seems to have a lot more of them.

If I remember correctly, previous reports about this woman indicate that this is not her first such attempt at this sort of thing. A Google search will turn up more about her.

As to the comment that the US is regarded as 'secular', nominally so. Surely you realise that it is swayed by very strong factions of left and right/ conservative and liberal?

Rolling Thunder
12-14-2006, 04:18 PM
The old goat! Hmmmm.......wonder if they need a sacrifice over in pagan cha...............nevermind.

Perks
12-14-2006, 05:52 PM
Well, since everyone (even godless, hopeless pagans) knows that you can't wave a wand and levitate, transform and zip around on broomsticks, these stories fit quite comfortably alongside any other fantastical fable.

Religion can survive fantasy. Otherwise, it would have been long gone by now.

PattiTheWicked
12-14-2006, 06:01 PM
Well, since everyone (even godless, hopeless pagans) knows that you can't wave a wand and levitate, transform and zip around on broomsticks, these stories fit quite comfortably alongside any other fantastical fable.


We can't?

Crap.

:::scratches stuff off To Do List:::

I read this article yesterday, and it never fails to amaze me how many people wish to share their stupidity with the world.

Lyra Jean
12-14-2006, 06:04 PM
If they are just sitting on the library shelves waiting to be checked out then I don't see how she can complain. If the books were taught in class then yeah I could see how she would have a complaint.

But if christians, and I am one, complain about Harry Potter then why are they for Narnia? Narnia has magic in it as well. You can't use the excuse that "oh but Aslan represents Jesus" who cares he still uses magic.

kikazaru
12-14-2006, 06:50 PM
I really think that people like this should not be given the publicity that they so desperately crave. I cannot believe that anyone is that attention deprived and I can only conclude is that she is a ringer sent in by the author to drum up sales, since every time some wing nut like this goes on a rant against the "evil" Harry Potter, then the more likely kids are going to want to read it.

If Ms Mallory wishes to shield her children from the satanic influence of words, then she should yank the little darlings out of school and hand feed them her version of the world. If she stopped haranguing the school board with her nonsense, she would have time to do so - and the school board could get on with their business. She should not be allowed to even presume to dictate what other parent's children should read and it just burns my behind that she was even given the time of day.

Zonk
12-14-2006, 06:52 PM
I think someone should log a complaint against the Narnia books as they indoctrinate people into the Christian religion.

Isn't the US supposed to be secular?

Actually a fair number of fundamentalists excoriated Lewis as being too Pagan when the series first came out, and a few still do. The use of mythical creatures in the Narnia Chronicles is hard to miss.

:D:D:D

Sean D. Schaffer
12-14-2006, 07:08 PM
Actually a fair number of fundamentalists excoriated Lewis as being too Pagan when the series first came out, and a few still do. The use of mythical creatures in the Narnia Chronicles is hard to miss.

:D:D:D


True. I remember reading a tract (a Chick tract, if I remember correctly) that said to burn all books by C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein, because they can be found in occult sections of some bookstores.

I guess I'd better burn my Bible too, because I found a number of Bibles in an occult section of a Waldenbooks a few years ago.

Christine N.
12-14-2006, 07:30 PM
Hey! Perks, I take offense at being called godless.

I have a god. I just have a goddess too. :D

johnnysannie
12-14-2006, 07:31 PM
True. I remember reading a tract (a Chick tract, if I remember correctly) that said to burn all books by C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein, because they can be found in occult sections of some bookstores.

I guess I'd better burn my Bible too, because I found a number of Bibles in an occult section of a Waldenbooks a few years ago.


Well, if a mention of witchcraft is enough to ban a book or burn it, then toss the Bible onto the pyre since (gasp) it mentions witches.

After all, it was Saul who consulted the Witch of Endor who called up the spirit of the prophet Samuel. Dangerous stuff, that.....just as bad as Harry Potter for those of a certain mindset.

Zonk
12-14-2006, 07:35 PM
True. I remember reading a tract (a Chick tract, if I remember correctly) that said to burn all books by C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein, because they can be found in occult sections of some bookstores.

I guess I'd better burn my Bible too, because I found a number of Bibles in an occult section of a Waldenbooks a few years ago.

My Bible mentions a Witch from Endor, as I recall.

Part of the problem is that many fundamentalists (and I speak as one firmly ensconced within that camp :tongue ) wouldn't know a full-fledged Paganism if they slept with it.

I've read serious treatises on witchcraft, and Harry Potter ain't it. It's 'Disneyized' magic, similar to Bedknobs and Broomsticks, though somewhat better written.

When someone gave my youngest daughter the first book in the HP series for Christmas, I decided, because of all the noise, that I would read it to see if I felt it was appropriate.

She has read all of the series so far, and so have I.

:D:D:D

LloydBrown
12-14-2006, 07:37 PM
Did the witches live with the ewoks?

johnnysannie
12-14-2006, 07:42 PM
My Bible mentions a Witch from Endor, as I recall.


When someone gave my youngest daughter the first book in the HP series for Christmas, I decided, because of all the noise, that I would read it to see if I felt it was appropriate.

.

:D:D:D

Although I'm not a fundamentalist, I did the same before I allowed my kids to read the books. I had heard so much about the books, good and bad, that I wanted to see for myself and make a decision before I let them read or not.

It's a wise course of action with many books these days - even those that don't have magic.

Zonk
12-14-2006, 07:45 PM
Well, if a mention of witchcraft is enough to ban a book or burn it, then toss the Bible onto the pyre since (gasp) it mentions witches.

After all, it was Saul who consulted the Witch of Endor who called up the spirit of the prophet Samuel. Dangerous stuff, that.....just as bad as Harry Potter for those of a certain mindset.

A careful reading of the passage in question (I Samuel 28:4-25) shows that the witch was fairly surprised when the 'ghost' of Samuel appeared...

Wiki says that the Witch of Endor was probably the inspiration for Bewitched's Endora, Samantha's Mom.

Guess I can't watch that show now either ;)

:D:D:D

johnnysannie
12-14-2006, 07:46 PM
of course the witch was surprised - magic is not exactly a predictable endeavor!!!!!;)

victoriastrauss
12-14-2006, 08:21 PM
WHat a waste of time and resources. Wouldn't it be nice if they were able to concentrate on things like...oh, say, literacy?

- Victoria

Perks
12-14-2006, 08:29 PM
Hey! Perks, I take offense at being called godless.

I have a god. I just have a goddess too. :DTrue - I should have called you 'Godless' not 'godless'.

My apologies. It wasn't ignorance, just a lack of caffeine.

farfromfearless
12-14-2006, 09:13 PM
They might as well take out any of the history books that reference Salem, Witches, Merlin (Sword & Stone), magic of any kind - I've read numerous debates on the matter and I find this whole thing completely absurd. If I wanted censorship I'd move to China.

WildScribe
12-14-2006, 09:30 PM
As a pagan, I can tell you that anyone claiming to be "initiated" by the harry Potter books would go immiately into my "nutter" category.

Joe Unidos
12-14-2006, 09:46 PM
Wow. That lady's overflowing with crazy.

WackAMole
12-14-2006, 09:51 PM
Wow. That lady's overflowing with crazy.


The problem is, she respresents a lot of religious people who spend more time trying to censor everything they are opposed to than they do actually following the principles of their own beliefs.

Imagine if the religious community stopped trying to stop everything outside their beliefs and just loved each other and everyone around them despite differences of opinion. It is God that changes hearts, the only thing censorship and lawmaking based on religious policy does is make people angry and hateful.

The best way to introduce a person to God is by example, and unfortunately, thanks to the media primarily, the only example we see is the efforts of people to ban books, ban relationships they dont agree with and censor everything from the music we hear to the tv we watch. To the average person, its disgusting.

C.bronco
12-14-2006, 09:57 PM
It kills me every time hear a story like this one; censorship is a central theme in my YA novel, now why doesn't someone publish it already!

engmajor2005
12-14-2006, 09:58 PM
America, meet theocracy. Theocracy, America.

PattiTheWicked
12-14-2006, 09:59 PM
As a pagan, I can tell you that anyone claiming to be "initiated" by the harry Potter books would go immiately into my "nutter" category.

"Nutter" accurately describes quite a few of the pagans I've met. Don't even get me started on the folks who practice Klingon Wicca.

WildScribe
12-14-2006, 10:03 PM
Don't discriminate - nutters come from all walks of life and all religions.

WackAMole
12-14-2006, 10:04 PM
Don't discriminate - nutters come from all walks of life and all religions.

LOL true enough, but we are only discussing one particular group of nutters!

WildScribe
12-14-2006, 10:05 PM
"Nutter" accurately describes quite a few of the pagans I've met. Don't even get me started on the folks who practice Klingon Wicca.

I was referencing this quote, myself

WackAMole
12-14-2006, 10:06 PM
I was referencing this quote, myself

Klingon Wiccas? Thats not true is it? LOL

PattiTheWicked
12-14-2006, 10:22 PM
Nutter" accurately describes quite a few of the pagans I've met. Don't even get me started on the folks who practice Klingon Wicca.


Don't discriminate - nutters come from all walks of life and all religions

Certainly. But the ones I've met at pagan events are all pagans, so that's my control group :)


Klingon Wiccas? Thats not true is it? LOL

Sadly, yes. It is. And it's a Very Odd group of people.

JeanneTGC
12-14-2006, 10:23 PM
The Diary of Anne Frank.
Of Mice and Men.
Huckleberry Finn.
Sex (by Madonna).
To Kill a Mockingbird.
A Wrinkle in Time.
Goosebumps (series).
Harry Potter (series).

They all have something in common, and share this bond with other books of literature, both great and small.

They have all been banned or challenged.

The list is long, and goes back to the dawn of print. Books are dangerous things, because any book can make someone think, any book can show someone a life or a world or an idea different from their own. Books are dangerous because they can and do change the world.

As long as there are books, there will be people who try to censor them. Decry the censors, and do not support them. Decry them as loudly as they condemn the books. Support the writers by buying the books, reading the books, and teaching your children to read the book first, and then draw their own conclusions after.

mooncars
12-14-2006, 10:44 PM
Religion can survive fantasy. Otherwise, it would have been long gone by now.

Well said. I'm a born-again Christian who's been guilty of such foolishness as railing against these books. When I was a child, cartoons had smoking, drinking, magic, etc, (check out older Felix The Cat cartoons) and no one complained. The only thing I have against Harry Potter is those books are too damned long. What about A Series Of Unfortunate Events? I love that movie. Does that make me an infidel? People who rant against kids' books are just hypocrites. I know. I've been one more than once.

My children all chose Christianity because I'm transparent. When I screw up, I admit it. They love Harry Potter and Goosebumps. They also excel in church. My middle daughter (12 years old) is so well read in Scripture that she is now teaching adult Bible study in a 500 member church. She owns all the Goosebumps books. What an evil kid! :^D

Carrie in PA
12-14-2006, 11:04 PM
GA Board: Potter Can Stay (http://my.embarq.earthlink.net/article/ent?guid=20061214/4580da50_3ca6_1552620061214609258394)

They voted against her.



ATLANTA - The Georgia Board of Education voted Thursday to uphold a local school board's decision to leave Harry Potter books on library shelves despite a mother's objections.

The board members voted without discussion to back the Gwinnett County school board's decision to deny Laura Mallory's request to remove the best-selling books.

dclary
12-14-2006, 11:05 PM
I think someone should log a complaint against the Narnia books as they indoctrinate people into the Christian religion.

Isn't the US supposed to be secular?

Can you show me where C.S. Lewis mentions Christ, or for that matter, God anywhere in the Chronicles of Narnia?

Tough to indoctrinate someone in any religion without actually mentioning it, isn't it?

What he does indoctrinate folks to is the concept of sacrifice for the greater good, and being true to your faith -- whatever faith you belong to (remember that in The Final Battle, Aslan allows a follower of Tash to come beyond the Sea with him and his followers)

dclary
12-14-2006, 11:06 PM
A careful reading of the passage in question (I Samuel 28:4-25) shows that the witch was fairly surprised when the 'ghost' of Samuel appeared...

Wiki says that the Witch of Endor was probably the inspiration for Bewitched's Endora, Samantha's Mom.

Guess I can't watch that show now either ;)

:D:D:D

Was she an Ewok?

Just asking.

LloydBrown
12-14-2006, 11:26 PM
They voted against her.

They shouldn't have even listened. "Funny, lady. Next!"

Perks
12-14-2006, 11:35 PM
Was she an Ewok?

Just asking.Oh you're a geek. But having said that, what does that make me for knowing? I'm just gonna get in my Blockade Runner and go back to hide in the ruins of Dantooine.

Sean D. Schaffer
12-15-2006, 12:15 AM
GA Board: Potter Can Stay (http://my.embarq.earthlink.net/article/ent?guid=20061214/4580da50_3ca6_1552620061214609258394)

They voted against her.


GOOD FOR THEM! :Thumbs:

Tallymark
12-15-2006, 12:22 AM
Aside from the fact that thinking Harry Potter indoctrinates children in paganism is just ludicrous, this womans arguement is terribly biased against pagans. I seriously doubt that they'd be complaning if there were a book lauding christian values on the shelves. Really, the rule is that they can't teach religion in schools, but it's sheer idiocy to pretend a religion doesn't exist and remove all references to it, just because you don't like it.

Now, I used to be a huge pokemon fan, and the same kid of nutters came out of the woodwork during the height of the pokemon craze, too. People were burning pokemon cards and stuffed pikachu's outside churches, saying that pokemon represented witchcraft. One person even said that pokemon were depictions of the devil, because some of them had horns! (gee, guess we can't eat cows anymore either, then). Every religion, unfortunately, has its fanatics. What's unacceptable is when these fanatics attempt to enforce their rules and beliefs on everybody else.

On a lighter note, just imagine all the extremists who would spontaneously combust if the when JK Rowling released the last Harry Potter book, it was Harry Potter and the Principles of Evolution. XD

Christine N.
12-15-2006, 12:35 AM
(gee, guess we can't eat cows anymore either, then

Hindus, frankly, would be terribly offended by that remark. Don't you know cows are sacred! :D (no, not making fun of Hindus, 'couse not. Just adding into the general nuttery)

Provrb1810meggy
12-15-2006, 12:51 AM
I'm a Christian and I read Harry Potter. I even wrote a book with witches, psychics, etc. It's a book, people. It's fiction, and many of my other christian friends enjoy the books. Harry Potter and other fantasy novels are products of imagination and creativity, both of which, in my point of view, are gifts from god. Therefore, using these gifts and sharing the product with the world is nowhere near sinful. And I've never known anyone that has got interested in paganism because of Harry Potter!

Zonk
12-15-2006, 01:13 AM
"Nutter" accurately describes quite a few of the pagans I've met. Don't even get me started on the folks who practice Klingon Wicca.
:roll:So are they Kliccas, or Wingons?


Can you show me where C.S. Lewis mentions Christ, or for that matter, God anywhere in the Chronicles of Narnia?
While he never mentions Christ by name, he stated clearly that the series was Christian allegory, with Aslan as the symbolical Christ.


Was she an Ewok?

Just asking.
Nah, wrong 'Star".

She was a Klingon. (See above)

:D:D:D

JimmyB27
12-15-2006, 05:42 PM
Can you show me where C.S. Lewis mentions Christ, or for that matter, God anywhere in the Chronicles of Narnia?

Tough to indoctrinate someone in any religion without actually mentioning it, isn't it?



Yup - but this crazy lady reckons HP is indoctrinating people into Paganism.

VGrossack
12-15-2006, 06:00 PM
I can understand the "look at this crazy lady" attitude of many above, but the fact that she got the Ban Harry Potter issue on to the agenda shows how organized she was. My question is: how does one organize on the other side? To fight censorship (and promote literacy)?

I'm sure some people out there are already aware of groups that fight the good fight (at least I consider it the good fight) - what are they?

Kind regards
Victoria Grossack
www.tapestryofbronze.com

arrowqueen
12-16-2006, 03:03 AM
'My question is: how does one organize on the other side?'

Well, the winter solstice is coming up. I suggest we nip out, dance skyclad, raise a cone of power and turn her into a turnip.

JeanneTGC
12-16-2006, 03:53 AM
I can understand the "look at this crazy lady" attitude of many above, but the fact that got the Ban Harry Potter issue on to the agenda shows how organized she was. My question is: how does one organize on the other side? To fight censorship (and promote literacy)?

I'm sure some people out there are already aware of groups that fight the good fight (at least I consider it the good fight) - what are they?

Kind regards
Victoria Grossack
www.tapestryofbronze.com (http://www.tapestryofbronze.com)

You counter the argument with sane, non-flippant arguments to the contrary. You support the Constitution of the United States, which allows the freedom of speech AND the separation of Church and State. You send in letters to your Congressional representatives stressing that your vote depends on their keeping freedom of speech free from religious interference. You teach your children and all you come in contact to, via word and deed, to read books, particularly those books that fall onto the "banned" list. You never, ever, condemn a book (or a movie, or a video, or a CD, etc.) without having read it (or seen it, or listened to it, etc.) first -- and you don't allow others to condemn in your presence unless they, too, have read it first.

I homeschooled our daughter for 3 years, partially because they "banned" Harry Potter at her PUBLIC grade school because some religious folk complained. One of the first things I did was assign her a reading list of every banned book I could think of that she could grasp. What that taught her, besides the fact that Mark Twain is the greatest and the Holocaust was the worst, was that a book being banned has, so frequently, less to do with the book's content than with whatever political statement the banners are trying to make. Plus she got to read a lot of excellent literature.

greglondon
12-16-2006, 03:53 AM
My general strategy is to NOT insult the Klingon Wiccan group.

PeeDee
12-16-2006, 04:26 AM
Here is what you do to fight censorship: You become a member of the CBLDF, which needs more help than quite a lot of groups right now. You join the First Amendment Rights group. You buy books. You do not censor. You teach your children not to censor. You become a fair minded and reasonable person and try to affect people around you to act in the same manner. Also, you find idiots like this woman and hang them.

NicoleJLeBoeuf
12-16-2006, 07:33 AM
One day, I may have children. Maybe. Or adopt. Whatever. IF THAT HAPPENS, my intention is to let them read whatever they Gods-dangit please: romances, soft-core pr0n, hard-core fan-fic pr0n, gory celebrations of violence, Orsen Scott Card's latest, even the Left Behind series if they want.

I will, however, insist that they tell me what they're reading. (Will they? I hope so. I hope to give them no reason not to. But you never know, kids being what they are.) I will then read whatever they are reading. What-ev-er. No exceptions. If they choose to read the Left Behind books, by the Gods, I will read them too. I will suffer through that.

I will do this not only so that we can then discuss anything they (or I) wish to discuss about the books, but also because I have a horrible habit of doing nothing but rereading my favorite "comfort" books and not reaching out often enough to read anything new. A writer's supposed to read widely and promiscuously, and I've been rather bad about that.

[/rant]

Because controversies like this make me think of what a perfect parent I would be (you are not imagining the distinct scent of irony in this sentence, no sir) in comparison to organized censor-happy nutbars like this one (oh, well, that's all right then).

VGrossack
12-16-2006, 11:21 AM
Thanks, JeanneTGC and PeeDee for your suggestions on what to do. PeeDee, can you tell more about the CBLDF?

Kind regards
Victoria Grossack
www.tapestryofbronze.com

Mac H.
12-16-2006, 11:48 AM
While [CS Lewis] never mentions Christ by name, he stated clearly that the [Narnia] series was Christian allegory, with Aslan as the symbolical Christ.Where was that?

I can't remember the exact quote, but I seem to remember C.S Lewis saying the exact opposite in one of his essays where he discusses the theory and practise of writing science fiction and fantasy. (The essay was published in the collection 'Of this and Other Worlds', if I recall. Apparently the selection of essays in the UK edition is different to the essays in the USA edition, just to be confusing)

He argued that Aslan WASN'T a Christian allegory. Many fantasy authors create fictitious worlds with aspects of our own, such as money, male-female relationships and gravity. Some of these seem so self-evident to the author that they simply can't imagine how a world could operate without them. For example, I can't imagine how a world could operate without money. Even on the Enterprise (which theoretically doesn't have it) the mythology ended up substituting 'credits' for the sake of the stories.

C.S Lewis argued it was the same way with Aslan. In his mind, it was self evident that any flawed world would need a Redeemer. He also discussed that he explored what life would be like in a non-flawed world in his 'Out of the Silent Planet' series.

He also talked about how he was continuing the long tradition of a 'dying/coming back to life god' mythology in creating Aslan. (As a professor of literature, he appreciated that the mythology of the 'dying/coming back to life god' was very old, and predated Christianity by a few millennia.)

As a comparison, there are many different tales from around the world of men battling great forces to save women. It doesn't mean that they all copied from each other (although there is a great deal of that), but instead points to the idea there is a fundamental human (or male) desire to do heroic deeds for our mates.

In the same way, he argued that the many mythologies of the 'dying god' points to another very human need .. that deep down we recognise the need for redemption.

Including it in his own mythology was natural ... simply because it reflects a natural desire of humanity.

That was his view, anyway. He may have been wrong.

Mac

Azure Skye
12-16-2006, 06:43 PM
Oh geez! Someone has too much time on their hands.

Zonk
12-17-2006, 01:25 AM
Where was that?

I can't remember the exact quote, but I seem to remember C.S Lewis saying the exact opposite in one of his essays where he discusses the theory and practise of writing science fiction and fantasy.

He argued that Aslan WASN'T a Christian allegory.


Mac
In Lewis' own words, in a letter to Maryland 5th graders in 1954:

"I did not say to myself ‘Let us represent Jesus as He really is in our world by a Lion in Narnia’; I said, ‘Let us suppose that there were a land like Narnia and that the Son of God, as he became a Man in our world, became a Lion there, and then imagine what would happen.'"

And from another letter:
The Magician’s Nephew tells the Creation and how evil entered Narnia, The Lion etc. - the Crucifixion and Resurrection, Prince Caspian - restoration of the true religion after a corruption, The Horse and His Boy - the calling and conversion of the heathen, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader - the spiritual life (especially in Reepicheep), The Silver Chair - the continuing war against the powers of darkness, The Last Battle - the coming of Antichrist (the ape). The end of the world and the last judgement.

Lewis' stories were apolegetical fictions; while he himself did not hold that they fell under a strict category of 'allegory' - and we have to remember here he was an acedemic - the above quotes I think show conclusively that they were.

He also said about the 'dying/coming back to life god' myth; 'Rum thing; it actually seems to have happened once.'

His stories were fictionalized apologetics for the Christian religion, as is admitted by all who study them.

:D:D:D

PeeDee
12-17-2006, 05:08 AM
Thanks, JeanneTGC and PeeDee for your suggestions on what to do. PeeDee, can you tell more about the CBLDF?

Kind regards
Victoria Grossack
www.tapestryofbronze.com (http://www.tapestryofbronze.com)

The CBLDF is the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, which is combating to keep artists and writers of comic books out of jail. It's on the verge of a full scale war, which is odd because you don't hear anything about it in the newspapers. For example, did you know that there's a writer/artist (whose name I cannot recall now for the life of me) whose home is subjected to random searches by the police, day or night, whenever they want, to make sure that he's not drawing anything at all? If he draws anything, he will go to jail.

It's filthy. It's disgusting.

www.cbldf.org (http://www.cbldf.org) is the company web-site, and I believe www.cbldf.com (http://www.cbldf.com) is the commercial site.

Become a member. It's cheap enough. You're helping a cause that's not only very good, but is fighting a very rough battle, and doesn't get nearly enough attention. A lot of people know about book banning, not as many people realize the trouble that comic books have.

If nothing else, buy a t-shirt. They have wonderful shirts. I recommend the "F*$CK CENSORSHIP!" t-shirt. They have an edited version, so you won't offend your friends. I own one, myself.

C.bronco
12-17-2006, 05:38 AM
Man, you'd like my book, you'd like it a lot!
I'm crapometer 266! Yay me!

PeeDee
12-17-2006, 06:20 AM
Here. Neil Gaiman talks about the case I'm referring to. The guy I was thinking of was Mike Diana:



How long have you been working with the CBLDF?
http://www.sfsite.com/gif/trib.gif Pretty much ever since I came to America, or very shortly thereafter. I was just dumbfounded by this wonderful First Amendment thing and how absolutely great it was. You see, I was coming from a country where that doesn't exist. I should add here that I am still English, I have no intention of giving up my citizenship and so forth. But coming from a country that has no concept of the First Amendment -- you know, most of the rest of the world has no concept of the First Amendment -- getting out here and seeing that you guys genuinely have freedom of speech guaranteed was incredible. You don't have an Obscene Publications Act, you don't have bizarre customs laws, you actually have the freedom guaranteed. And that's so amazing. But the flip side of that is my feeling that it's not necessarily something that gets treated as the amazing thing that it is. Nor is it something that necessarily gets respected as it should be. And it's very, very, very easy for something like this to be eroded. And the erosion of individual liberties, the erosion of freedom of speech is very easy, because people can just decide freedom of speech simply means freedom of speech they agree with. And comics are a very easy target for attacks of various kinds. Just look at the kinds of cases the Fund has been defending over the years. For instance, a California tax authority decided to reclassify comics from literature to sign painting.
What in the world...? http://www.sfsite.com/gif/trib.gif They did this about 6 years ago. And we had the longest, most expensive legal fight the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund has ever had. They went after a guy named Paul Mavrides who does the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comics. They informed him that what he does is sign painting, not literature, and would be taxed as such. A writer handing a manuscript into a publisher doesn't have to charge them sales tax, but a sign painter does. And we fought that case and we won.
Compare that to Mike Diana (http://www.cbldf.org/ji_diana.html), a young man in Pensacola, Florida, who did a fanzine called Boiled Angel which had his own comics in it. And they [the authorities] decided the comics were obscene. He wound up getting put in jail for 3 days before getting out. And in the actual legal case, he was found guilty of obscenity, becoming the first American artist ever to be found guilty of obscenity. This was about 2 years ago. And the penalty he got included a 3-year suspended jail sentence, 1,000 hours of community service, a $3,000 fine, a journalistic ethics course at his own expense and psychiatric counselling at his own expense. And he was not allowed within 10 feet of anyone under the age of 18, which considering this was a kid who worked in a convenience store was rather problematic. And to cap it all, he was forbidden from ever drawing anything that might be considered obscene again, and the local police were entrusted with the responsibility of making random, 24-hour spot checks on the place where he lived to make sure he was not committing art or doodling while on the phone or anything.
My God, that's like something out of 1984... I've heard of child abusers who haven't gotten that kind of sentence. http://www.sfsite.com/gif/trib.gif Exactly. We tried to take it to the Florida Supreme Court, and lost the appeal. Then we tried to take it to the US Supreme Court, but they declined to hear it. And the fact that we lost that case troubles me more than the good feeling I got from the ones that we won. And the flip side of this is that no one's heard of this case. So that's what I mean by saying that unless you're out there manning the parapets on the whole First Amendment business, they will take it away.

rugcat
12-17-2006, 06:59 AM
Truly frightening.

And let us not forget the original Comic Code Authority which effectively banned those great horror comics - no vampires or werewolves allowed.

R. Crumb, genius, now living in France, would surely not escape prosecution these days.

The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, co-drawn by Gilbert Shelton, is my all time favorite comic. (Except of course for Uncle Scrooge)

PeeDee
12-17-2006, 07:03 AM
In the world, there are only two issues which mean enough to me to get me particularly worked up. Freedom of speech is one of them. Particularly issues like this. The other is killing, particularly of animals. When you read news stories like the one about Mike Diana, you can see why it bothers me so much, and why I'm so adamantly against censorship. Of any sort. It's too slippery a slope to start down. If you'd do it for a good reason, you'll eventually do it for a bad one.

crazynance
12-17-2006, 07:59 AM
My mother listened to her Christian friend, and returned the books she had purchased for my nephew, replacing them with Veggie Tales. Yikes. I have not only read but eagerly awaited and POUNCED on the first copy of 'Harry' into the house. We fought over who got to read the book next.. terrible. When my mother returned those books, we were living in Oxford, mere miles from the Eagle and Child pub, where C.S and J.R.R used to bend an elbow... it was too late to convince her to change her mind by the time she told me. btw- the actor who plays Harry, Daniel Radcliffe, has same bd as my middle girl.HA! If she had been a boy, she would have also been a Daniel...
[oh, um, I have to go write 250 words now... slinks off..]

Tiger
12-17-2006, 10:59 AM
Everybody wants to ban what they don't like. How many College Republican papers get challenged by so-called progressive groups?

I think it's a mistake to look at this kind of action as strictly religious.

tourdeforce
12-17-2006, 11:10 AM
Everybody wants to ban what they don't like. How many College Republican papers get challenged by so-called progressive groups?

I think it's a mistake to look at this kind of action as strictly religious.


I give up, how many?

Tiger
12-17-2006, 11:33 AM
You're answering the question with a question?

Here's one:

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=13505

Do you have some problem with my post?

Mom'sWrite
12-17-2006, 11:36 AM
I can understand the "look at this crazy lady" attitude of many above, but the fact that she got the Ban Harry Potter issue on to the agenda shows how organized she was. My question is: how does one organize on the other side? To fight censorship (and promote literacy)?

I'm sure some people out there are already aware of groups that fight the good fight (at least I consider it the good fight) - what are they?

Kind regards
Victoria Grossack
www.tapestryofbronze.com (http://www.tapestryofbronze.com)

The fighters of the good fight are already organized and living in most communities. They look a lot like librarians. Behind those half-glasses perched on the end of her nose and that lightning fast "Shhhhhh", beats the heart of a mother bear ready to defend her literary cubs.

The ALA (American Library Association) defends the right-to-life of the written word from Main Street USA to Capitol Hill. They take challenges of this sort personally (and they keep track of them too.) I'm sure members were there, if not sitting on the board itself.

MajorDrums
12-17-2006, 08:01 PM
I think this woman's actions are ugsome to say the least, and it would not surprise me any if she continues her attempts to ban Harry Potter.

I do not see this as a strictly religious issue, but an unwilligness to learn about different aspects when it comes to thought and creativity. Learning can be uncomfortable, disconcerting, unsettling; so much so, that it becomes a threat to people such as this woman. If you question life, you have to question yourself, so black-and white self-righteousness is sought to be protected in order to thwart that. Absolutes in narrow-mindedness are comfortable in its predictability and non-threatening with little room for change. Any alternatives to whatever said absolutes people like this woman hold fast to is seen as a direct challenge, an enemy that is attempting to do away with their views. Harry Potter in all its "witchery" is an attack (!!), so of course she hasn't read the books, and she is not going to. But on a less serious note, I bet her kids are so embarrased. They're probably like, "Shut UP, mom!" LOL.