Bad Critiques?

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Celia Cyanide

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We hear responses to critiques too often with statements like, "You just don't get it!" or "You've hurt my feelings! I worked hard on this!" But what do you think is really bad critique? Is there anything that you do consider unfair? Or just plain dumb?
 

Birol

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That's a good question right now.
Not unfair. There are times when a critiquer is not critiquing the story that is in front of them, but the story that they would have written if they had been writing that story. There are also individuals who rely too much on the platitudes and "the rules of writing," such as "show, don't tell." They apply them too literally, as hard-and-fast rules, rather than as flexible guidelines.

In those cases, as with all critiques, you thank the person for taking their time, take what you can use, and discard the rest.
 

WildScribe

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I also don't like it when people skim and then presume to critique. JUST READ THE THING!
 

Julie Worth

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WildScribe said:
I also don't like it when people skim and then presume to critique. JUST READ THE THING!

What does it matter? If you haven't paid them, do what Birol said--thank them, use what you can and discard the rest. Keep the knowledge that they are ignoramuses inside, for your secret satisfaction. If you have paid, if the critiquing is part of a conference or retreat, then you MUST get revenge on these people. If you have the opportunity to critique their work, return their papers crumpled, covered with coffee and urine stains. Compare their writing glowingly to writers who were published only after committing suicide. Be imaginative.
 
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piscesgirl80

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There was a funny article in the October issue of The Writer, on bad types of critiques, unfortunately I can't remember them all.

One type of bad critique is one that is vague and doesn't give the writer anything to work with. (i.e. "This sucks!" :D )

Another is when the readers don't like the genre of the given work, and suggest changes to make it more like their usual tastes, rather than accepting the change of pace. ("Yeah, I think 'Better Off Dead' is too violent. Why don't you replace the murders with tea parties?")

I wrote a poem a few years back about a girl with anorexia. A response which I considered an unfair critique was someone who said the concept of the lines where the character fretted over the calories in a bit of chocolate was "unrealistic."

I could understand if he thought the lines were the worst-written dreck that had ever been put on paper, that the poem was just horrible,etc., but with the thousands of girls with eating disorders, I was speechless that he thought an obsession with calories was unrealistic.
(Fortunately, other people in the group gave me more constructive criticism which helped improve the poem.)
 

WildScribe

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Julie Worth said:
What does it matter? If you haven't paid them, do what Birol said--thank them, use what you can and discard the rest. Keep the knowledge that they are ignoramuses inside, for your secret satisfaction. If you have paid, if the critiquing is part of a conference or retreat, then you MUST get revenge on these people. If you have the opportunity to critique their work, return their papers crumpled, covered with coffee and urine stains. Compare their writing glowingly to writers who were published only after committing suicide. Be imaginative.

The people I was talking about were members of a critique group. In a way they were paid, since we mostly critiqued on an "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" kind of system. Anyway, I'm over it.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I once had a guy critique my writing process. He told me I shouldn't spend so much time finding the right words. I don't think it really matters how I do it, unless I don't like the way I do it.

Same guy asked another woman in the class if the evil spirit she had created for her WIP was documented in non-fiction books, and if not, why was she writing it?
 

Simon Woodhouse

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Celia Cyanide said:
But what do you think is really bad critique?

When it gets personal. I don't mind criticism of what I've written, but when the critter starts using phrases like 'the author obviously doesn't know blah, blah, blah'.

I wrote a short story once in which a secondary character smoked a lot. One of the people critting took exception to this, and really started getting quite personal about it. I found it difficult to hold my tongue and not respond, but I managed it, and just thanked him for his time and left it at that.
 

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I'd say, it's best to work on developing as thick a skin as you can. Some people, it's true, can't critique or feel as if they have to focus on the negative. A play of mine was read aloud by a number of actors to a group of people who were supposed to critique it. The woman who was moderating was very negative, and made a point of saying, "Let's see what we can tell Victoria in order to make her play better!" (or something like that). The group sat there dumbly for a bit, and then another woman finally stuck her hand up in the air and admitted that she had enjoyed it a lot. Everyone else seemed to exhale and they started praising it with enthusiasm.

On the other hand, I've received plenty of criticism that I didn't like at the time but which was really spot on. And why should my work be perfect, even in the first - twentieth - or hundredth - draft?

A while back I wrote an article called "How to Get - and Take - Criticism." Most of the people here probably don't need to read it, but a few might find some helpful information in it. Here's the link:

http://www.coffeehouseforwriters.com/fictionfix/0511 Grossack.html

Kind regards
Victoria Grossack
www.tapestryofbronze.com
 

veinglory

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I can generally ignore any unhelpful criticism of the writing, but when it becomes a critique of the writer in anyway that is more of a problem.
 

Roger J Carlson

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Celia Cyanide said:
We hear responses to critiques too often with statements like, "You just don't get it!" or "You've hurt my feelings! I worked hard on this!" But what do you think is really bad critique? Is there anything that you do consider unfair? Or just plain dumb?
My first response to an unfavorable critique is always: "They just don't get it!" But then I remind myself that if someone who is actively reading the thing to critique it can't understand something, how can I expect a casual reader to understand it.

If a reader "doesn't get it", then the writer has failed, at least for that reader. If a significant number of readers make the same mistake, the writer has certainly failed.

I don't remember where I heard this (maybe Uncle Jim), but if a reader tells you there's something wrong in your story, they're probably right. If they tell you how to fix it, they're probably wrong.

ETA: But if an editor tells you how to fix something, go out and celebrate!
 

Julie Worth

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Roger J Carlson said:
I don't remember where I heard this (maybe Uncle Jim), but if a reader tells you there's something wrong in your story, they're probably right. If they tell you how to fix it, they're probably wrong.

ETA: But if an editor tells you how to fix something, go out and celebrate!

Right on!
 

Southern_girl29

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I think someone up thread said that they don't like vague crits. I don't either. I don't like it when someone says this doesn't work, but doesn't tell you why. I would even like it if they said, "This doesn't work. I can't tell you why, but it just threw me out of the story."

But, even if I don't like the crit they give, I always say thank you and move on. I did a crit for someone in my online writing group, and she came back at me like I didn't know what I was talking about at all.
 

VGrossack

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Warning: long post. Decided to post the old article here. Hope it helps!

Kind regards
Victoria

* * *
How to Get - and Take - Criticism
Victoria Grossack

One of the best ways to improve your writing in general and your work in particular is to apply the criticism of others. But where do you go to get such a critique? And how do you take it? Having your work critiqued can be occasionally painful; how do you deal with negative reactions?

Finding People to Critique Your Work

If all you want to hear is praise about your work, then you should turn to friends and family who never say a bad word to your face. This will prevent your ego from being damaged. However, if you want to improve your writing, you have to find people who are both willing to look at your work and who are competent at writing, or at least at analyzing what they read.

Where do you find such people? If they are not in your close circle of acquaintance, then you will have to step outside that circle. In many ways, it is good to step outside your normal circle of friends for literary criticism, because relationships can be strained by writing critiques. Your friends may provide you with great, right-to-the-heart-of-the-matter comments that help you improve your story by tall bounds. But you may write so terribly that your friends don’t know what to say and feel imposed upon by the request. Or you may write so well that you make your friends jealous. I have experienced all three reactions, including, I admit it, the second (but that was many years ago).

So you may want to turn to relative strangers for critique. There are many ways to do this. Some of them are free; others cost money. There may be writing groups that meet in your area. These can be great; for face-to-face meetings with other writers can inspire you and give you a shot of creative-laden energy. They can also be timewasters, spiraling down into social meetings – pleasant, perhaps, but not useful. The problem with these meetings is that they are constrained by time and space: whoever in the surrounding area can get to the library every other Tuesday, for example.

Another possibility is an online critique group. Now here I will do a plug for coffeehouseforwiters, which sponsors Fiction Fix. This site has an excellent critique group, CH Select which is where I sharpened my own writing skills years ago. If you search on the internet you can find others which may suit your specialty.

Some alternatives involve money but should not be dismissed out of hand just because of this. You may take a class or a seminar, either in person or on-line. Another possibility is to hire someone to look at your work individually. Some people may scorn the idea of going to “book doctors,” because they feel that they should not have to pay in order to learn to write. Perhaps these people can’t afford the money, but I don’t see why a service, if it offers you value and insight, should not be paid for. Another reason people are leery of paying for help is because they are afraid of getting ripped off, which of course is always a possibility. So if you are considering this, you should always check references.

People who give you criticism are often known as “critters.” I’ll be using this word occasionally in the rest of the article.

What to Give Them

Say you have found someone or some people you want to look at your writing. What should you give them? Unless you already have a working relationship with these people, please consider the following two suggestions:

1. Start with a sample. Unless you are paying someone to read thousands of your words, don’t begin by saying, “Could you give me a critique of my 80,000-word novel?” This sort of request strikes terror into a busy person. Instead, ask your potential critter to read and comment on a few paragraphs or pages. In fact, this is a pretty good thing to do with a book doctor, too – this way you could test your potential hire.

2. Give them your very best. Don’t think that poor grammar and typos are excusable, simply because you are not sending your work to an agent or an editor. Wait until you have finished your piece and re-read it several times before passing it along. Not giving critters your best is actually insulting because you’re wasting their time – you are telling them that they do not merit your very best. If you give critters a piece full of obvious mistakes, then you may ruin your chances with getting a good critique of the story. In addition, they may be reluctant to look at anything else.

Not giving critters your very best wastes your time, too. How? Well, good critters should be used to help you find the problems that you can’t find on your own. If all they do is point out the problems that you already knew were there, then how have they helped you?

How to Take Criticism

Receiving praise is easy. All you have to do is smile and say thank you. But what should you do when the response is less than flattering?

You may not be able to smile, but you should still say thank you. Someone has taken the trouble to offer you an opinion. Unless you have half-a-dozen qualified opinions to the contrary, you should listen.

Still, what if it hurts? You may be offering your masterpiece, your child, your very soul on the paper – the slightest criticism can sting. What do you do?

I’ll start by saying what you should NOT do: do not reply hastily and negatively, especially with insults. Tell them that you appreciate their taking the time to tell you what they think. Even if you know they have made a mistake – for example, if they have claimed that Benjamin Franklin never went to France, when you know that the opposite is true – point out this difference of opinion politely.

The most difficult chore is dealing with the possibility that what you wrote has genuine flaws. What do you do? Here are some suggestions:

1. Take pride in the fact that you wrote something. Many people dream of being writers; far fewer get around to actually writing their stories and novels. So by writing anything – even if it is not great – you have done a lot. The first step is to write. The second step is to learn to write well.

2. Distance yourself from your writing. One reason criticism of your writing can hurt so much is because you see it as an extension of yourself. Recognize that your writing is not you; try putting your ego away and concentrate on making your work better.

3. Remind yourself that others have taken a long time to learn how to write. Why it should be any different for you? Many people seem to believe that because they know how to read, they also know how to write. Perhaps you enjoy watching professional baseball – you understand all the rules, you know the statistics, and so on. Do you think that just because you know how to watch that you could hit a home run out of Yankee Stadium? Or think of professional figure skating: when it’s well done, it looks easy. But we all know that these things are not easy. Why should writing be any different? You have to do your exercises and learn the craft.

4. Take the criticism and apply it. When you accept the criticism, and apply it to your story, your work will get better. You will also start gaining that necessary distance from your work so that you can see – and fix - the flaws before others do.

Give as Well as Take

If you join a critique group, make sure you give critiques at least as often as you receive them. There are several reasons for doing so. First, it’s simple courtesy. Second, when you give a thoughtful critique of someone else’s writing, you are much more likely to receive a thoughtful critique in return. Third, as you give another person a thoughtful critique, explaining what you did or did not like about a particular paragraph, you will be simultaneously improving your own writing. You will be taking writing more seriously, and others may eventually take your writing more seriously too.

* *
Kind regards
Victoria Grossack
www.tapestryofbronze.com
 

blackbird

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WildScribe said:
I also don't like it when people skim and then presume to critique. JUST READ THE THING!

I agree. I've had critiques where it was obvious the reader didn't actually read the piece, or at least failed to do so closely. What I hate is when someone jumps on something that, had they read the piece closely, would have been evident in the writing. This happens quite often, say, at large writer's conferences, where the participants may be trying to cram their group's critiquing homework in with a half dozen other activities, as well as doing their own networking. It can also happen because readers are human and if they're trying to read your piece under less than ideal conditions-at work, during breaks, or late at night when they're tired, or in between changing diapers and dealing with screaming kids, or early in the morning before they've had their coffee (you get the idea), this likewise is going to affect the quality of the critique.

A good example: When I was a student in my MFA program, and our class had a story to workshop on a particular night, it wasn't unusual to find classmates hastily skimming over the writer's work during the last fifteen minutes or so before class. Sadly, a graduate student's life is a demanding one, and I'm not really faulting my classmates (sometimes we get in a bind and do what we have to do) but then I would really have to wonder about the quality of the "critiques." If you read through the piece too hurriedly and carelessly to catch what may be crucial elements of the story, you're certainly not doing the writer any favor-and thereby wasting your own time, as well.

I've learned to take most critiques with the proverbial grain of salt. There are several key questions you have to ask yourself, before deciding how much weight to give a critique: Is this person well-versed in your particular genre? Do they know what makes a piece of writing work in this genre? What is their own background and experience? Are they published and successful themselves? (If so, it might pay to heed their advice, or at least to give it a bit more credence).
 

Celia Cyanide

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blackbird said:
I agree. I've had critiques where it was obvious the reader didn't actually read the piece, or at least failed to do so closely.

I don't mind having people at AW say, "I didn't finish it, and here is why." It's useful to hear why they lost interest. But I think that when you are in a critique group, it's bad manners to skim over a work when you want the writer in question to read yours thoroughly.
 

Roger J Carlson

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And sometimes the thing they criticize is not what's really wrong with it.

At a writers workshop I was in a group critique. My novel was a fantasy and most of the criticism was about how the magic worked. I felt then and still feel that the criticism was unfounded. I realized later that what was really wrong was the writing was slow and stodgy. Instead of recognizing bad writing for what it was, they focused on details.

I've heard it said here before that if your story is fast enough, the readers won't have time to study the scenery. My readers were looking at the scenery.

So sometimes if you really disagree with a critique, look a little wider. There might be another legitimate problem that is masquerading as something else.
 

Celia Cyanide

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Roger J Carlson said:
So sometimes if you really disagree with a critique, look a little wider. There might be another legitimate problem that is masquerading as something else.

That is a very good point, but one that should also be remembered in reverse. If you are giving a critique, and you find yourself focusing on something that you really shouldn't focus on, ask yourself why.
 

Julie Worth

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Celia Cyanide said:
That is a very good point, but one that should also be remembered in reverse. If you are giving a critique, and you find yourself focusing on something that you really shouldn't focus on, ask yourself why.

For me, it's generally that the writing sucks so horribly that there's no help for it. But I have to come up with something.
 

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I couldn't resist. Here are some examples of what I've considered really BAD critiques of my work (all taken from real life):

I once received this, in response to the first chapter of my novel, which is about three contemporary Native American characters living in a small town in southern Tennessee. The very first paragraph clearly establishes the novel's setting. Yet I received this gem of a comment:

I don't get any sense of the setting. I can't picture any desert imagery here. (Ah, maybe because southern Tennessee isn't exactly the desert?).

And maybe because not all Native Americans live in the Southwest?

Or this one, which made for a nifty follow-up:

These characters don't act like Native Americans. (Maybe because they aren't stereotypes?).

Sheesh, gimme a break! Sorry, I just had to vent.:)

Yes, believe me, there is definitely such a thing as a bad critique!
 

maestrowork

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I agree with Lori that some of the worst critiques I had was the critter was trying to tell me "Hey, this is the way *I* would have written" or they didn't like the story because... well, they didn't like the genre. Other bad critiques -- focusing too much on the nitpicking like grammar, etc., offer nothing good to say about the ms. to balance the critique (it can't be all that bad, can it?) I've also learned to take what I can and put the rest to rest.
 

Stacia Kane

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I once had someone complain about the layout of my hero's beachfront backyard. He had a "guesthouse about the size of [heroine's] duplex", and the comment was: "But how big is the duplex? Take this out, and put in a series of small cabanas connected by pathways instead. That makes more sense."

Um...this is a private residence, not the Beverly Beach Club, and I've been to the area where this fictional house is located, and there are guesthouses. Why on earth would someone put a bunch of paths and cabanas in their backyard?

And why was this something you felt you needed to comment on? Ultimately, he has a guesthouse because that's what he has. It's like reading he drives a Mercedes Roadster and saying, "I don't like that car. He should drive something else."

It just really floored me...that his backyard guesthouse was so bothersome critter needed to tell me it was wrong to have it there. Nothing to do with the story or the writing (aside from it being one of the heroine's first impressions of him, and so showing he was wealthy)...but nitpicky enough that she even mentioned it later when someone made a casual remark about the guesthouse. "Cabanas!"
 

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Hello everyone. I'd just like to sneak some of my experiences in on bad critiques. I've had my stories critiqued in a group setting. A writer told me, "English must be your second language." And, "You need to go back to school, and study grammar." They'd say this, without offering anything to improve the story. I raised an eyebrow, and thought, okay, they're clearly not critiquing.
Here's the beginning of a story I wrote. But, before you read it, I'd like to say, no matter how you change it, someone else may or may not agree with the change.

*A bouncer, in a crowded Wisconsin nightclub, was threatened by an ex-con named Jake Daren; wilding a switchblade.*
 
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Bufty

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I decline, to crit this sentence; on the grinds it may incriminate me.

*A bouncer, in a crowded Wisconsin nightclub, was threatened by an ex-con named Jake Daren; wilding a switchblade.*
 
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aadams73

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short_story said:
"You need to go back to school, and study grammar." They'd say this, without offering anything to improve the story.

Maybe they are giving you something that can improve your story. Poor grammar is the first thing that stops me from reading on. I figure if a writer can't manage decent grammar*, then their story probably isn't crafted well either.

I put a query up for critique recently and everyone who chimed in gave me something I could(and did) use. They gave me exactly what I wanted and needed.

Funnily enough the crits that are least useful in my eyes are the ohmigodilovedit variety. And yes, I know I'm guilty of this one, although usually I'll just give the poster a rep point and tell them I enjoyed it. You can learn more from honest critcism than you can from excessive praise.


*Most of us slip up now and again though.
 
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