A debate about agents

Re Doris Lessing and V S Naipaul, this thread is interesting:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48304

Your friend accurately observes that agents are business people. Yes, of course they're business people. That's the point. They sell manuscripts, do deals, make money for the author, publisher, and themselves. Your friend's problem appears to be that he/she disapproves of the job description, wishing agents to be literary scholars with powers to compel publishers to buy things. And who purports to be offering whom a reality check here? *chuckle*

I like the part about agents having no use for "unknown authors." Known authors are, by definition, successfully published and selling well--which means they're agented. So agents' only clients are those they pass amongst each other?

People who conflate their opinions of What Oughta Be with What Is are not good candidates for logic. It's probably best just to nod thoughtfully, and make a mental note to discuss other things with this person. When you do get one of those evil capitalist agents, make sure you celebrate with someone else.

KCH--new member, longtime lurker, first post. Be gentle.

Don’t forget, agents may primarily be business people, but they’re also people who love books. Why else would they go into the field? Remember, many agents are former editors. There are a lot easier ways to make money, if that’s your primary goal.

Sure, they have to believe they can sell your book. Who would take on a book if they think there’s no way they can sell it? But what gets overlooked is the other part of the equation - they also have to love the book. If they don’t, it’s not necessarily a reflection on your writing, or even your salability. Agents get hundreds of mss. every year; they can’t love them all. It takes too much time and effort to work on a book you’re not passionate about.

Agents are readers - knowledgeable readers, but readers still. I read a lot of books. There are plenty of literary classics, bestsellers, genre bestsellers, cult classics, etc. that I simply don’t care for. I may recognize their value, but for whatever reason, they don’t speak to me. That doesn’t make them bad books. They might even be great books. Just not for me. What makes you think an agent is any different? The bottom line is that people have different tastes - even if they’re agents

As far as not being interested in unpublished authors - completely untrue. Getting an unknown author published and having that author become a huge success is an agent's dream - and not just for the money.

With that comment about agents having little use for unknown authors, your 'friend' reveals that they have not read any of the selection of agents blogs that are around.
Agents dearly love 'good' unknown authors. Their definition of 'good' would appear to be different to your friend's. Probably because it excludes your friend.

I've noticed that more agents in this years (2007) agent books, both Jeff Herman's and Writer's Market are putting in that they don't want anything from unpublished authors. In checking with some of them, they mean they want only authors published with book length works. I always thought for the most part if you were published with 'book' length work, you would already have an agent. That cuts the stack for a lot of writers trying to find an agent.

Monet said:

I've noticed that more agents in this years (2007) agent books, both Jeff Herman's and Writer's Market are putting in that they don't want anything from unpublished authors. In checking with some of them, they mean they want only authors published with book length works.

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They're trying to cut down on the query deluge. If agencies accepted only already-published writers, all they'd ever do would be to pass the same clients around. Not only would this eventually put them out of business (since there is much attrition among published authors), where would all the debut novels come from? All you have to do is to read through a few issues of Deal Lunch, or the reviews in Publishers Weekly, to see how many debut novels are being sold via reputable agents.

I suggest that writers ignore this and query anyway. If you send an interesting query that looks like it's for a marketable work, I'll bet they won't mind that you're not already published.

- Victoria

I did read on an agent's assistant's blog, that an agent only makes between $500-$1000 on a new author. I'm assuming that is a general estimate and that money can take a great deal of time for them to earn. Most new authors are not worth their time. To make matters worse an author has to get through the assistant before their query reaches the actual editor. To make it to the next desk a writer must not only have good writing but be in the hot market. It also helps to have an award or short story or something to make you shine.

Sad but true folks. Make the query shine. All the sample pages in the world won't get them beyond the letter.

Greer - your friend's POV is SO unproductive and a bunch of bull.
Agents take new and unpublished writers all the time. I am both new and unpublished and got a terrific agent just a few months ago and she has already sold my book.
Harris - I did not even have a short story published.
The difference? I had four manuscripts finished and several others started.
I got my agent with my third novel.
Those of you thinking that agents feel this way would do better to ignore it and go back to writing
JMHO


http://pkwood.blogspot.com/

ORION said:

Greer - your friend's POV is SO unproductive and a bunch of bull.
Agents take new and unpublished writers all the time. I am both new and unpublished and got a terrific agent just a few months ago and she has already sold my book.
Harris - I did not even have a short story published.
The difference? I had four manuscripts finished and several others started.
I got my agent with my third novel.
Those of you thinking that agents feel this way would do better to ignore it and go back to writing
JMHO


http://pkwood.blogspot.com/

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Congrats. That's great. I didn't mean that it was impossible just the query is as important as the work itself. Hoping your agent is fabulous and lands you a big sale.

She did.
Thanks.

I could be wrong but I doubt if agents are naive enough to be sold on the basis of the query letter. I am sure they have read it all and base their decision on the sample pages instead.

Danger, Will Rogers! Run! Run!

rugcat said:

...- they also have to love the book.

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This is not true, or at least not true for an agent good at what s/he does.

An agent insisting on repping only books s/he would buy is the same as a salesperson insisting on selling only cars HE would buy. That is an extremely self-centered viewpoint, stating as it does that the center of all value, be it books or automobiles, is where they personally are standing. It also bluntly states book/car buyers have no right to buy what they, the buyers, want.

Stating one "has to love" a product in order to sell it (and thus denigrating all customers who want to buy something else for their own personal reasons) is the mark of the amateur. In a previous life I would never hire such people to sell products (they can only sell to a limited subset of their friends), and in this life I would never hire such an agent to sell my ms.

A book buyer can buy any damned book s/he wants and any agent who insists s/he can arbitrate book buyers' tastes is egotistical small potatoes destined to stay small potatoes in the real world outside their own mind.

"Danger, Will Rogers! Run! Run!" from such agents. If they won't sell your book because they don't love it as their their book, let 'em starve.

Monet said:

I've noticed that more agents in this years (2007) agent books, both Jeff Herman's and Writer's Market are putting in that they don't want anything from unpublished authors. In checking with some of them, they mean they want only authors published with book length works. I always thought for the most part if you were published with 'book' length work, you would already have an agent. That cuts the stack for a lot of writers trying to find an agent.

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That's a misunderstanding. Many of the "don't want anythings" are actually "no submissions" — and that means full manuscripts; a query package may be ok. Even those who say "no queries" or "not looking for new authors" really mean "no unsolicited queries" or "not looking for new authors through a slush pile," not that they won't respond if they're interested.

The question then is how to get them interested. The best way is by legitimate recommendation from someone they know, either an editor, if the author has an offer in hand, or another agent (or perhaps even author-client) who likes your work, but can't represent the new author. There's a variety of ways to get that attention; almost all of the methods that actually seem to work are low-key, soft-sell approaches in which the prospective author gets to know the target at least minimally before mentioning that the prospective author has written a book, and never involve shoving a manuscript at the target on an elevator (or, worse yet, at home... and that one is not an apocryphal tale, as it's happened to two different agents I know).

Aside: At least two of the seemingly "uninterested" agents in Jeff Harman's book announced hefty deals for first-time-book-authors since this time last year. The "announcements" of disinterest in the book are intended to keep them from being inundated, not to truly reject the thought of representing previously unpublished-at-book-length authors. (For example, I can't see any agent in the business turning down a not-previously-published-at-book-length recipient of a "genius grant" without at least looking at the manuscript.)

janetbellinger said:

I could be wrong but I doubt if agents are naive enough to be sold on the basis of the query letter. I am sure they have read it all and base their decision on the sample pages instead.

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Hmm. interesting concept. I guess those pesky blurbs aren't important just the magic you conjure by page 3.

http://crapometeriv.blogspot.com/2006/10/happy-hooker-crapometer-faq-5-18-25.html

The query alone doesn't sell. A great query won't fix a bad book. A bad query won't get the book read.

Quiller said:

This is not true, or at least not true for an agent good at what s/he does.

An agent insisting on repping only books s/he would buy is the same as a salesperson insisting on selling only cars HE would buy. That is an extremely self-centered viewpoint, stating as it does that the center of all value, be it books or automobiles, is where they personally are standing. It also bluntly states book/car buyers have no right to buy what they, the buyers, want.

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Liking a car and liking a book are two utterly different kinds of "like". You might not like a car personally, but you know it's a good, solid car that won't break down soon. You can still sell it as a good car, disregarding your taste, and it won't be a lie.
Not ikeing a book, on the other hand, can go as far as thinking it is absolute crap. An agent selling a book he personally thinks is crap is a liar.

But somebody else might think it's fantastic. There is no objective scale of measurement.

It also bluntly states book/car buyers have no right to buy what they, the buyers, want.

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No. Other agents will take care of their needs. There are all sorts of agents around, and all sorts of books and all sorts of tastes.

Think deeper

aruna said:

Liking a car and liking a book are two utterly different kinds of "like".

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Think deeper and you will begin to understand that the selling person (agent/car salesman/etc) is not the arbitor of buyers' tastes. Any selling person who claims to have the right to decide for a customer what the customer should buy has not only an ego problem, but also a problem selling to any customer but a subset of her/his family and friends.

Narcissism is the mark of those who can't cope without building a wall around themselves. Narcissism is not a good trait in an agent.

Would you buy kitchen cabinets from a store that insisted all cabinets worth owning are made of straight-grain yellow pine stained a deep cherry?

aruna said:

... but you know it's a good, solid car that won't break down soon. You can still sell it as a good car, disregarding your taste, and it won't be a lie.

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If that is your criteria for determining whether you are ethically willing to sell a particular car or not, then you will NEVER be able to sell Porche or Ferrari or Mercedes-Benz automobiles.

If an agent defines "good" as something they "like", turn and run as if they had said "evaluation fee".

Quiller said:

Would you buy kitchen cabinets from a store that insisted all cabinets worth owning are made of straight-grain yellow pine stained a deep cherry?

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I think youpre the one who needs to think deeper, Again, books are not kitchen-cabinets,. There's an emotional, subjective aspect that has to be considered. Books, for instance, have ethical components. They promote ideas. They evoke feelings - strong ones at that. They change people.
It has nothing to do with ego. It has to do with being in tune with your product, and being able to truthfully convince others (editors) that it's worth buying.
I remember my first agent told me she only accepts books when she not only likes the book, she likes the author as well . Authors, agents and editors - and the books they work on - together make up a highly sensitized team. There has to be synchonity; it just won't work otherwise.

[Think deeper and you will begin to understand that the selling person (agent/car salesman/etc) is not the arbitor of buyers' tastes./QUOTE] And you are not the arbiter of agents' tastes. Most agents don't want to to represent books they don't personally like. Who are YOU to say they should do otherwise? That's YOUR ego at work.

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Quiller said:

If that is your criteria for determining whether you are ethically willing to sell a particular car or not, then you will NEVER be able to sell Porche or Ferrari or Mercedes-Benz automobiles.

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Well, there you have it. There is no objective way of determining a potential Porsche, Ferrari or Mercedes Benz unter manuscripts. They are just heaps of paper. They don;t come with badges on them, and reputations, like cars. The only thing that counts is "will readers buy this". If an agent does not like a book he has every right to believe others won't like it either. Have you never picked up a book and wondered what on earth moved anyone to publish it? All we have to go on, when it comes to books, is "this will sell" or "this won't sell". And our only measurement is our own opinion.

If an agent defines "good" as something they "like", turn and run as if they had said "evaluation fee".

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I'll go further. She has to LOVE it. I'm glad I found such an agent. I wouldn;t want anything less.

Sorry, but the word "insular" comes to mind. Yup, some agents are like that, making their decision to rep or not based on the color of the flowered print dress you wore that first day, much like the prim dresses the ladies in their church group wears.

Such agents, I suggest, have a reputation among publishers of never delivering anything but Flowered Print Dress manuscripts. FPD is a limited market, most particularly when the publisher is dying for a little black dress or red halter top manuscript.

Quiller said:

If that is your criteria for determining whether you are ethically willing to sell a particular car or not, then you will NEVER be able to sell Porche or Ferrari or Mercedes-Benz automobiles.

If an agent defines "good" as something they "like", turn and run as if they had said "evaluation fee".

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Being an agent is nothing like being a salesman for almost anything else.

I just think you don't know what you're talking about.

Quiller said:

An agent insisting on repping only books s/he would buy is the same as a salesperson insisting on selling only cars

Stating one "has to love" a product...

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My point was that most agents do not consider books to be nothing more than "products." Considering agents to be indistinguishable from salespeople for any other product. (i.e., pest control chemicals) is not, I believe, an accurate representation of what they do and why they do it.

Aruna's posts have saved me a lot of reply time.