Iraq report

ColoradoGuy · Dec 6, 2006

So, anybody want to comment on the kerfuffle presently coming over my TV about today's big report?

William Haskins · Dec 6, 2006

it conflicts with all the cheery news the new york times has been spewing for the past few years. i don't know who to believe anymore.

robeiae · Dec 6, 2006

Since no one asked me to join the committee, I have nothing to say about the report.

billythrilly7th · Dec 6, 2006

I rest my case.

ColoradoGuy · Dec 6, 2006

I'm an out-of-the-closet pacifist, so I've really got no dog in this thing -- I say just get out of there. But the interesting thing to me is that my brother, a special-ops SEAL guy whose been in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan too many times for me to keep track of, has been saying much the same thing to me for quite a while. He and his SEALy colleagues complain there's been no plan for years about what to do -- they just wing it from day to day and cross their fingers, hoping for improvement.

The effect of today's report reminds me of what happens when the parents come home unexpectedly early to find the teenagers have trashed the house. So, silliness is over -- time for the grown-ups to take over and try to clean up the mess.

William Haskins · Dec 6, 2006

first off, best wishes to your brother, and i hope he stay safe.

i'm reading the report, but it's pretty long and i'll withhold further comment until i've finished it. i was flippant in my first response, but i agree these are serious issues.

ColoradoGuy · Dec 6, 2006

William Haskins said:
first off, best wishes to your brother, and i hope he stay safe.

Thanks. He's been a SEAL for more than a decade, and has been OK so far. When I've talked to him and his buddies at various times about politics (they think it's quaint he has a pacifist brother) I've been amazed at what utter pragmatists those folks are. One might think his line of work would attract fanatics, but what I have met have been men who really don't want to waste lives and treasure at what is clearly a stupid activity. In fact, these guys would "cut and run" in a minute if they thought that was the best tactic. I suppose that's because, as macho SEAL guys, they don't feel the need to prove their toughness to anybody. To me, part of Bush's problem is that he seems to feel the need to prove his manhood, even if that means sacrificing the manhood of others.

MacAllister · Dec 6, 2006

Chris--my military friends and acquaintances have expressed the same frustrations. They say the first few weeks were great--clear goals, defined strategies, understandable plans, achievable outcomes...but now they ride around and people throw rocks and shoot at them, and they don't really know what they're supposed to be accomplishing.

ColoradoGuy · Dec 6, 2006

And man-oh-man, has he got some ugly Halliburton stories. He and his friends despise the private armies those contractors have, answerable to no one.

MattW · Dec 6, 2006

A new strategy is in order, and this report and a new SecDef should be all the opportunity needed to safe face, course correct, and actually sort something out in Iraq - all with the intention of drawing down when the time is right.

Unique · Dec 7, 2006

MattW said:
- all with the intention of drawing down when the time is right.

Except you can't revisit the past and the time to do that was before we went.

You can't give someone democracy, you can't give someone freedom; they have to want it for themselves and they have to take it for themselves.

SC Harrison · Dec 7, 2006

ColoradoGuy said:
And man-oh-man, has he got some ugly Halliburton stories. He and his friends despise the private armies those contractors have, answerable to no one.

They get paid a lot more, too, and probably travel back and forth to visit their families (girlfriends, whatever) much more frequently than GIs. I bet a big chunk of the $45 a meal KBR charges the government for military meals ends up paying for merc..."private contractors".

TheGaffer · Dec 7, 2006

I worry that from his public comments, the President is already doing all he can to let people know he's going to ignore most of the recommendations of the report.

robeiae · Dec 7, 2006

TheGaffer said:
I worry that from his public comments, the President is already doing all he can to let people know he's going to ignore most of the recommendations of the report.

I haven't read it yet (I will, I will), but I have to say, I'm not sure why the report has to be treated as anything more than some collected opinions. As such, I really see no reason why it should carry any more weight than any other opinions. Sure, there are some heavyweights on the panel, but there are some lightweights, too. And of course, I haven't read it--I might agree with it, top to bottom.

SC Harrison · Dec 7, 2006

robeiae said:
I haven't read it yet (I will, I will), but I have to say, I'm not sure why the report has to be treated as anything more than some collected opinions. As such, I really see no reason why it should carry any more weight than any other opinions. Sure, there are some heavyweights on the panel, but there are some lightweights, too. And of course, I haven't read it--I might agree with it, top to bottom.

I listened to the interview with Baker and Hamilton on NPR yesterday. Baker was adamant about engaging Iran and Syria in diplomatic dialogue, and leaving the Iran nuclear subject out of the equation, at least for now. I happen to agree, because the only wedge we have (right now) to stop it is military intervention. And yes, it's a damned big wedge, but we need more than that.

They also talked about concentrating on the training of Iraqi forces so they can step up, but I've heard that so many times it reminded me of "Stairway To Heaven." Or maybe "Free Bird" would be more appropriate.

TheGaffer · Dec 7, 2006

I'm not sure why the report has to be treated as anything more than some collected opinions. As such, I really see no reason why it should carry any more weight than any other opinions.

But it was put together with the idea that this was going to be some kind of way for the administration to point a new way forward. And if it's all going to be junked, what was the point of it then? And rather, if it was just a bunch of collected opinions, why give the weight to the possibility of what it was going to say prior to the report's release? It can't be treated as a salve prior to its release - which it was by some in the administration - and ignored later under the notion that it's just a bunch of collected opinions.

And I haven't read it yet, either. I do question why we needed a blue-ribbon panel put together to voice what seem to be common-sense conclusions about the current situation in Iraq, but that's how far we've fallen these days.

robeiae · Dec 7, 2006

Well, I'm still stinging from not being invited to sit on the panel, so don't mind me.

TheGaffer · Dec 7, 2006

You can serve on the Clary panel, which I'm putting together now.

robeiae · Dec 7, 2006

TheGaffer said:
You can serve on the Clary panel, which I'm putting together now.

Is that to address the question of when we should withdraw from Clary, or of how we should cook him?

SC Harrison · Dec 7, 2006

TheGaffer said:
And I haven't read it yet, either. I do question why we needed a blue-ribbon panel put together to voice what seem to be common-sense conclusions about the current situation in Iraq, but that's how far we've fallen these days.

It's easy to say "this is a mess", and this report is supposedly pretty bleak, but it also provides some guidance. There are something like 70 recommendations in the report, some of them strategic and some political. On the strategic front, they propose removing all combat brigades that are not actively defending other U.S. forces by early 2008, which (I'm thinking) will still leave 50,000+ troops on the ground in Iraq.

TheGaffer · Dec 7, 2006

or how we should cook him?

It's on how we should cook him.

dclary · Dec 7, 2006

robeiae said:
Is that to address the question of when we should withdraw from Clary, or of how we should cook him?

I hope someone withdraws soon. My mouth and ass are getting sore.

TheGaffer · Dec 7, 2006

I blame you for that response, robieae.

robeiae · Dec 7, 2006

TheGaffer said:
I blame you for that response, robieae.

Yeah...I blame myself for that, as well.

dclary · Dec 7, 2006

Who knows, maybe as many recommendations from this panel will be followed as were the recommendations of the 9/11 panel.

Iraq report

I've seen worse.

poet

Touch and go

I've seen worse.

poet

I've seen worse.

'Twas but a dream of thee

I've seen worse.

Company Man

Agent of Doom

Dances With Hamsters

Docking Bay 94

Touch and go

Dances With Hamsters

Docking Bay 94

Touch and go

Docking Bay 94

Touch and go

Dances With Hamsters

Docking Bay 94

Unabashed Mercenary

Docking Bay 94

Touch and go

Unabashed Mercenary