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Congratulations, Mr. President
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billythrilly7th
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Congrats, Hugo!
If you lost in a "vote," it would take all the fun out of your eventual downfall at the hands of your own people.
Sleep well.
If you lost in a "vote," it would take all the fun out of your eventual downfall at the hands of your own people.
Sleep well.
dclary said:
Yes. It appears to have been an election at least as above-board as a couple of our recent ones. Ecuador has also just elected a populist leftist as President, and who wants the country to join OPEC. Bolivia did a similar thing earlier this year. Mexico damn near did. Nicaragua just returned Daniel Ortega to the Presidency. Remember him? Twenty years ago a certain cabal in the White House illegally bought weapons from the Iranian mullahs in order to shoot at him (now, that was a hell of a foreign policy decision, wasn't it?); I don't recall if that was before or after we sided with Saddam Hussein to help him shoot at the Iranian mullahs.
Now, my question is this: Why do you suppose these (and likely other) Latin American countries are electing such guys?
Oh, and a second corollary question: What exactly, other than sarcastic rhetoric, has Hugo Chavez done to damage us?
caw
billythrilly7th
Banned
blacbird said:
Because they're poor, desperate and buying into their bullsh1t?
blacbird said:
Nobody really damages us. Fidel Castro hasn't damaged us. Has he? I hate him. Kim Jong Ill hasn't damaged us. Has he? I hate him. Etc...
I hate all dictators, communists, socialists and opressors of their own people.
It doesn't have to affect me personally for me to hate these humps.
I hate what they do to their own people.
"Until all of us are free, none of us are free."
William H. Thrilly 7th 2004
Bolshevicism always appeals to uneducated, poor, easily manipulated masses.
And college professors.
Go figure.
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Really bird, I expect better from ya. That's such a softball, I'd almost think it was rhetorical. Speaking of which...blacbird said:
“I hereby accuse the North American empire of being the biggest menace to our planet.”
“It is an imperialist government, one that says it fights against terrorism but protects it. The U.S. throws stones to Latin America.”
Doesn't look all that sarcastic to me. In fact, it looks a little threatening...
billythrilly7th said:
A good first step, Thrillsy, let's see if we can't take it a little farther.
Why are these people, especially in Venezuela and Mexico, pretty big countries with lots of natural resources and a long history of development of those resources, so poor and desperate? Haven't they been blessed with non-leftist governments most of their history? How come the virtues of free-market industrialism haven't filtered down to give them the benefit of materially decent lives? Gee, ya think it might be they're a little fed up with the "free market" promise and rhetoric, and, gee, ya think they might see usn's, who love those big corporate entities that run that "free market" as part of the problem and not part of the solution?
Just asking, ya know.
caw
billythrilly7th said:Because they're poor, desperate and buying into their bullsh1t?
Or because Chavez has introduced education and health care to the poor? I'm not a big fan of Chavez's rhetoric. He is an egoist. And he will last as the people he has decided to educate tolerate him. Providing the the political system can remain uncorrupted. But right now I think he's doing more for Venezuala that generations of politicians have done . That might not sit right right with some people.
Freedom is about tolerance. In a civilized society when people go too much either way you first of all ignore them, then argue against them and as a last resort kill them.
billythrilly7th
Banned
blacbird said:
Quite frankly, I don't know why those countries can't get their acts together.
Corruption and incompetence probably.
Now they'll get dictatorship and socialism.
And we all know how well that works.
Poor people.
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Better than the overly simplistic "they don't know any better," but still very simplistic.blacbird said:
If you want to explore this, I suggest starting with Hernando De Soto. He makes some errors, imho, but it's a good read with many salient points.
And I doubt very much that the populace in these nations is following the line of thought you have offered, except when they are listening to demagogues spew this nonsense as a means to secure power.
When someone says "we need to reform our systems to take advantage of the free market; it will take hard work and time," it rarely goes over as well as "the filthy rich are keeping you down; why should we not all share the wealth of our nation equally?"
robeiae said:
That only works when the filthy rich are actually keeping you down. And in some countries they are.
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English Dave said:
Tell that to the folks that were on Chavez's blacklist. That is, if you can find them...
English Dave said:
Especially when the corrupt local authorities/privileged families/criminals and thugs are in happy collusion with immense private multinational conglomerates with a strong incentive to keep that supply of dirt-cheap labor available. Keeping 'em uneducated helps, too.
Chavez is a bombastic demagogue with a ready supply of oil cash. So far, he's done nothing with that money that I can see that would be damaging to us, but boy we sure don't like the idea that he squeezed out the big private oil companies, do we? Of course, the time-test formula for curing a country of its Hugo Chavez is to convince (subvert, corrupt, etc.) the local military to stage a coup. It'll probably happen in Venezuela sooner or later.
I'm not supporting the model of Hugo Chavezes as the way forward for any of these countries. But the model they've been working under damsure ain't making it, either, and I think it is important to understand why and how a Hugo Chavez rises to power, and why they always always always ride a tide of anti-American sentiment. We just never seem to get it. Could it be there's something we aren't willing to admit to ourselves?
caw
billythrilly7th
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Hugo, please do better with crime.
Thank you.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/01/news/venez.php
Stop purging too.
Come on, dude. You're better than that. You're a Latino Robin Hood. Please act accordingly.
Thank you.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/01/news/venez.php
Stop purging too.
Come on, dude. You're better than that. You're a Latino Robin Hood. Please act accordingly.
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No. But I guess you need to qualify that "we."blacbird said:
Who said the previous model was working? Not me.
And of course corporate interests making a profit in such a situation will resist change. As will local aristocrats (for the most part).
So what are you saying? People like Chavez will continue to rise to power until the U.S. ...does what, exactly? We might actually agree on this, to some extent.
SC Harrison said:
Is that 'black list' or take them up in a helicopter and drop them list? I know sh1t all about Venezualan politics. But I've been there several times and I do know that conditions are improving for the poorest members of that Country.
As far as I'm concerned when the poorest members of a society actually have the time and energy to care who governs them then that is Democracy in action. Someone has to start it off.
an amusing thread...
my take is that both sides in the US see him through their own personal filters. he's demonized by many on the right (and his big mouth doesn't help) as a threat to democracy in the western hemisphere, and he's lionized by many on the left because he's a fellow traveler, and many of them so love to put socialists up on a pedestal (as their liberal guilt is assuaged by thinking that they're tangentially championing the downtrodden).
the truth is (as is so often the case) a little of both.
he's not an immediate threat to democracy in the americas in that venezuela is incapable of any real military menace. i find his PR campaign against america distasteful and hypocritical, since he's pretty much built his persona around being a target of american intervention in venezuelan affairs.
a caveat to that is that he's a potential longterm threat to the US in his alliances with iran and expressed sympathies for north korea; but this too is largely an attempt to thumb his nose at america. the danger would be in creating military alliances and buying weapons from rogue nations. if he were ever to threaten america or american interests, i'm confident he would be effectively neutered.
as for being a good socialist, it amazes me what some on the left will forgive when some populist starts spewing the crap they so wish hillary or john kerry would say.
it's the same highly idealized fantasy that many intellectuals fell prey to in the early 20th century, as they celebrated the liberation of the socialist revolution in russia and china, even as—across the seas—millions were slaughtered.
hopefully, nothing like that will happen under chavez, but history proves when the rhetoric heats up to violence, and class warfare flares up—people die, infrastructure is destroyed, and the very people that thought they would see a better future suffer the most.
one need look no further than zimbabwe, after the poor downtrodden people were incited to seize the farms of the evil pig landowners. a nation which had sustained itself for decades found itself having to import food, suffered under 70% unemployment 1000% (that's not a typo... one-thousand percent) inflation.
i feel no threat from chavez. he's a castro/guevara wannabee, and the venezuelan people are entitled to buy his bullshit if they want to. he may temper his rhetoric, proceed cautiously with healthy reform and end up being seen as a bolivarian legend, beloved forever.
or he might end up hanging from a lamppost like mussolini.
if the day comes when he represents a legitimate threat to the US, i trust our leadership will have the good sense to crush him like a bug.
my take is that both sides in the US see him through their own personal filters. he's demonized by many on the right (and his big mouth doesn't help) as a threat to democracy in the western hemisphere, and he's lionized by many on the left because he's a fellow traveler, and many of them so love to put socialists up on a pedestal (as their liberal guilt is assuaged by thinking that they're tangentially championing the downtrodden).
the truth is (as is so often the case) a little of both.
he's not an immediate threat to democracy in the americas in that venezuela is incapable of any real military menace. i find his PR campaign against america distasteful and hypocritical, since he's pretty much built his persona around being a target of american intervention in venezuelan affairs.
a caveat to that is that he's a potential longterm threat to the US in his alliances with iran and expressed sympathies for north korea; but this too is largely an attempt to thumb his nose at america. the danger would be in creating military alliances and buying weapons from rogue nations. if he were ever to threaten america or american interests, i'm confident he would be effectively neutered.
as for being a good socialist, it amazes me what some on the left will forgive when some populist starts spewing the crap they so wish hillary or john kerry would say.
it's the same highly idealized fantasy that many intellectuals fell prey to in the early 20th century, as they celebrated the liberation of the socialist revolution in russia and china, even as—across the seas—millions were slaughtered.
hopefully, nothing like that will happen under chavez, but history proves when the rhetoric heats up to violence, and class warfare flares up—people die, infrastructure is destroyed, and the very people that thought they would see a better future suffer the most.
one need look no further than zimbabwe, after the poor downtrodden people were incited to seize the farms of the evil pig landowners. a nation which had sustained itself for decades found itself having to import food, suffered under 70% unemployment 1000% (that's not a typo... one-thousand percent) inflation.
i feel no threat from chavez. he's a castro/guevara wannabee, and the venezuelan people are entitled to buy his bullshit if they want to. he may temper his rhetoric, proceed cautiously with healthy reform and end up being seen as a bolivarian legend, beloved forever.
or he might end up hanging from a lamppost like mussolini.
if the day comes when he represents a legitimate threat to the US, i trust our leadership will have the good sense to crush him like a bug.
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Jack Powelson, a distinguished emeritus economist at the University of Colorado, made similar arguments to De Soto's in his 1994 book Centuries of Economic Endeavor. He and a few of his Friendly buddies have put the whole book on line (http://tqe.quaker.org/wealth-and-poverty/index.html) It's worth a look, and it's free.robeiae said:
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