Grammar Contentiousness

the devil's in the details?

MajorDrums said:

the devil's in the details?

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I thought Floebert said God is in the Details

Lori, I believe the correct term is "contentiousity." Or maybe "contentioussitude."

"Contentiousness" however, is WAY wrong.

I think part of the contentiousness is because, often, when people post in the Grammar section they're already frustrated.

And I think part of it is because people want a Single Correct Answer, possibly because they've been conditioned to think of writing as "right" or "wrong," when there's actually a fairly large spectrum.

It's probably heresy for me to say this, but mostly, I think writers worry too much about grammar. Yes, it's important, but if you manage to make sense, and if you have just one or two predictable foibles, say a comma fetish, it's not going to be a make-or-break Yes or No issue for submission.

Mind, I'm not saying grammar isn't important, I'm saying, especially for fiction, that minor issues are not worth the level of aggravation they generate.

i think it's because, aside from the "business" aspects of writing (formatting, communication with editors/agents/publishers), writers rely, almost obsessively, on a notion of freedom, of the mindset that there is not a "right" or "wrong" way to write. grammar gums up the works of this mentality as it imposes its own set of rules which, admittedly, are difficult to master. an otherwise great piece of writing can become marred by a grammatical error, and it makes it a touchy issue.

on top of this, in the event of a grammatical error, a critic, peer or otherwise, can seize on the error, sometimes pedantically and obsessively, and not see the forest for the trees, as it were. this can be frustrating for the writer, as the grammar becomes the issue when perhaps it shouldn't.

ultimately, we probably make too much of people pointing out our grammatical errors, as the writer's universe revolves around their work, and there is a lot of pride and vulnerability there. we feel stupid and it shakes our confidence to put something out there with a boneheaded mistake, and we lash out from frustration.

William Haskins said:

the grammar becomes the issue when perhaps it shouldn't.

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Yes, what he said. (Trust a poet. . . )

ultimately, we probably make too much of people pointing out our grammatical errors, as the writer's universe revolves around their work, and there is a lot of pride and vulnerability there. we feel stupid and it shakes our confidence to put something out there with a boneheaded mistake, and we lash out from frustration.

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One thing that rouses my ire double-quick are spelling and grammar flames. First, this is a casual environment, not a vetted publication, and secondly, well, I can't spell. I do try, but I have a gift for screwing up.

I am particularly annoyed by grammar and spelling flames from someone who's on less than solid ground in his or her own posts. I've been known to be less than delicate in such cases. (Yes, I can too be delicate! Stop laughing!)

That said, I think that there's a point where the errors detract from the text--if there are that many errors then, yes, there's a problem.

It's a fun way to derail someone.

"You might be completely right, but that comma is WAY off-base, so foo-foo on you!"


Actually, the CE forum exists so that people with strong, differing opinions can practice debating each other civilly and thus strengthen their prose by adding passion and verve. The grammar forum-goers should come visit and learn how to be upset at each other without letting the others upset them back.

aka eraser said:

Lori, I believe the correct term is "contentiousity." Or maybe "contentioussitude."

"Contentiousness" however, is WAY wrong.

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Sure, just bring the fight over here will ya.

Bmwhtly said:

I thought Floebert said God is in the Details

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i know some people who can't tell that difference i've heard people say both.

Medievalist said:

and if you have just one or two predictable foibles, say a comma fetish,

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Hi. My name is Tammy and I have a comma fetish.


I am turned on, especially, by sentences such as these: "Mind, I'm not saying grammar isn't important, I'm saying, especially for fiction, that minor issues are not worth the level of aggravation they generate."



Bah….passive on purpose.


And all kidding aside, I agree with the quoted sentence.

dahmnait said:

Hi. My name is Tammy and I have a comma fetish.


I am turned on, especially, by sentences such as these: "Mind, I'm not saying grammar isn't important, I'm saying, especially for fiction, that minor issues are not worth the level of aggravation they generate."



Bah….passive on purpose. .

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That's not passive. That's active voice.

I used to get all bent out of shape from seeing poor grammar in publications, fiction or otherwise. But it seems to me that grammar rules are becoming less and less stringent, owing no doubt to the steady decline of education standards in public schools and the unqualified acceptance of poor communication skills in the workplace. In this regard, weak vocabularies are every bit as distressing.

So now I just make sarcastic comments. And how the hell did 'text' become a verb?

robeiae said:

...the unqualified acceptance of poor communication skills in the workplace...

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Dude, I would say don't get me started, but too late. I'll try to keep it succinct, but I could go on for an indefinite but extended time period about how f***ing tired I am of being asked to proofread my Department Manager's emails. You're making thrice my salary, working in the training department, and you can't even write, much less talk? And they wonder why I'm disgruntled...

robeiae said:

And how the hell did 'text' become a verb?

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The same way "Fedexed", "overnighted", "instant messaged" and "Xeroxed" became verbs.

You are all welcome to join my coalition for All Middle English All the Time.

Oooh, my pet peeve in sports are announcers who don't have a basic grasp of language. I don't expect greatness. Just don't make me wince every few words.

Warning: mini-rant to follow

Defensed: Usage: That was well defensed. There is already a word for this. It's "defended."

Trickeration: Usage: That was a nifty bit of trickeration there. Again, there is a word for this. It's trickery.

Okay. I'll stop now. Whew. That feels better.

Soccer Mom said:

Oooh, my pet peeve in sports are announcers who don't have a basic grasp of language. I don't expect greatness. Just don't make me wince every few words.

Warning: mini-rant to follow

Defensed: Usuage: That was well defensed. There is already a word for this. It's "defended."

Trickeration: Usuage: That was a nifty bit of trickeration there. Again, there is a word for this. It's trickery.

Okay. I'll stop now. Whew. That feels better.

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I concur. I think this sort of thing started as tongue-in-cheek, which is fine. I'm all for slaughtering the language in the name of humour. Hell, I'm for damn near anything so long as it's funny, but too many announcers have come to believe these are actual words.

Yeah, I think that's my real problem with it. If one person said it and then moved on it would be one thing, but I KEEP hearing it. And for a lot of them, it's as if they don't really know that that isn't the word. Those are two that make me scream at my TV.

Thanks to someone for the polite PM regarding my typos. Who says grammarians can't be nice?

It's because we know we're right.

Birol said:

The instant language quits evolving is the same instant humanity quits evolving. When language stops changing, it means we have stagnated and it will make it easier for Them to gain control, whoever They might be.

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Intellectual laziness is indicative of stagnation.

Passive. Please work on this, Robeiae. You can eliminate all single syllable words in this sentence by making the verb active.

My linguistics teacher in College loved the evolution of language, but he also had frequent tangents about the difference between the necessity of new word creation and improper use or lack of use of perfectly good words already in existence because people are too lazy to use them.

"I don't believe in grammar. I just believe in me."
John Lennon
1974