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DreamWorks
12-03-2006, 04:37 AM
Please scroll down for latest edit. Thank you for all the helpful remarks thus far!

jbal
12-04-2006, 03:30 AM
Dreamworks- I may not be qualified to crit this sort of thing, as it's not at all what I write or listen to. What genre does it fall in? Sounds like country or just a ballad perhaps?
In any case-love, dove, yes corny. Not too many words that rhyme with love though, so perhaps rearrange the lines if it has to rhyme. Also staring at the stars and velvet hair strike me as trite. A song doesn't have to end with chorus, but traditional formula is verse-(or often two verses at the beginning)-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus-chorus-out. Last chorus is optional, or you may modulate it up a half step or something.

Beyond that I'll just say this: I don't write songs about love or relationships as a rule. It's pretty well trodden territory in my mind, and there are so many good ones on the subject that I don't see why I should bother. Here's a method of which I like the results. I've been doing this quite a bit. When I sit down to write, I focus on the subject at hand and brainstorm, trying to write down any images that come to my mind, especially those that seem to carry emotional weight. Depending on the length of the song, I try to get a page or two of just random thoughts, then distill that into lyrics. I have no idea whether this would work for you, but I like it. Here is one verse resulting from this method:
The average of zeroes demystifies
crippling I'm drowning in your tides
The rapture the infinite provides
insatiable will to just survive
the pummeling embrace intensifies
and I find the light-illumified
(from a song called "Group Hug")
This is on the more ethereal side where my own lyrics are concerned.

Again, I really don't feel qualified to critique this-mostly what I write is either hip hop or metal, which will be lyrically quite different from what you have here, so please take any criticism I offer as what it is- I have no aspiration of writing songs for mass consumption, and what I write is purely for my own enjoyment.

The main thing I will point out to you here is that there are a lot of people writing songs which are similar to this, and you definitely need a hook to make it stand out. Lyrically I mean. You want it to offer something different- a unique take on your subject that the audience doesn't get anywhere else. I don't see that here. Hope this helps.
BTW I read the other one as well when it was up. Liked that one better, but I would have to read it again to offer specific insight to the degree that I can give it at all.

jbal
12-04-2006, 03:54 AM
I hope I didn't sound discouraging in that other post. I thought I'd pop back in to post lyrics to a love song I really like- Pet Name by They Might Be Giants

You gave me a pet nam, which is not to say I liked it
we met at a party, not to say I was invited
you said love was just a lie, but I could tell that you were lying
and we've almost figured out how we'll get along
and given time we'll find it strange to be alone

(end of song)
you just forgot your one pet name for me, and all those promises you said you'd keep
and it's a lucky thing because that sentimental stuff doesn't suit you at all.


I like pretty off the wall stuff, and I write material which is destined for commercial failure. In fact, it's been almost ten years since I even attempted to make any money writing songs. So please don't listen to me.

WildScribe
12-04-2006, 03:59 AM
We Never Called It Love

VERSE1
We never called it love
Not as we stared into the skies above
you held my hand and we counted doves *(too corny for words, right?)

'Fraid so. As a poet, I am begging you not to rhyme "love" and "dove". PLEASE! There are a limited number of words that rhyme with love, and they are extremely predictable. If possible, end lines with another word.



but we never called it love

VERSE2
I never told you that I care
Not when I softly stroked your velvet hair
and who'd have thought you'd have to tear
my heart in two each time you went somewhere?

CHORUS1
you often asked me why I sit and stare
And even though I said it's not Because I care
I do for you I care for you
i couldn't speak... because i wouldn't dare

CHORUS2
and now you tell me that it wasn't real
my fears were true but i still feel the way I feel
I wanted you, I haunted you
well, when you go just know that I'll appeal...

VERSE1
i know We never called it love
Not as we stared into the stars above
and as we played that lovers game of push and shove
well... perhaps it wasn't love

VERSE3
I never know when not to care
And if I did I'd never feel despair
but what could I do (dear), I wanted you (near)
I guess a little more than you could bear

** Or should I end with another Chorus. Should songs end with Chorus? Should this be a little longer?


Yes, a final chorus would be appropirate here, perhaps with a repetition following. Hope I've helped!

Scarlett_156
12-04-2006, 04:22 AM
It comes off kinda dry. There is no one compelling image that drives the song, it seems more an exercise in rhyming. "Velvet" is not a good way to describe someone's hair, it kind of draws one's attention in the wrong direction. I think that instead of working/reworking this song to death, you should do the exercise of writing a song every day-- just write songs about anything, just for practice, right? Even if they sound corny or derivative-- or like something you just heard on the radio-- sooner or later you'll start to get the hang of it and your songs will have more of a hook to them.

DreamWorks
12-04-2006, 04:28 AM
jbal, no that was not discouraging at all on the contrary
Its your opinion and I value it. Liked your madeup song and PET NAME... thnx for sharing
I realise now the song is even more corny than I thought... what was I thinking? I have a cool melody though, maybe I'll try and come up with completely different lyrics to go with it... we'll see how the brainstorming goes... Anyways I'm going to post a non love song soon just to prove I am not always corny :)

DreamWorks
12-04-2006, 04:57 AM
Oh thanx Scarlett, I didn't see your message!
That is definitely what I am doing... writing as much as I can about whatever in as many different styles as I can. The lyrics to this song were totally melody driven however... I had a tune in my head and I let the voices carry me, as they say... I guess it shows, huh!

I had a question though, generally speaking, to who ever cares to answer... would you classify Mariah Carey lyrics as corny?

DreamWorks
12-04-2006, 05:09 AM
jbal, no def not country - that is one style that for some reason I haven't been drawn to (not counting Dolly Parton - what a diva!) I played it to a professional musician who categorized it as Rock Ballad, a la' teen idol. Actually, if anyone would like to hear a rough version please PM me... otherwise wait for me to link you to it shortly - when I have better lyrics of course

DreamWorks
12-06-2006, 05:04 AM
How's this for a rewrite?

We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
I felt it clearer than the skies above
although we never called it love

I never told you that I care,
Although i'd often stroke your yellow hair
And everywhere we went, well we made quite a pair
We'd mess around and dare them all to stare

But as they say my love has flown away
And every day that passes I become less gay
The thought of you, the God of youth
Gone, like sunshine on a cloudy day

You were a child of love, a child of hope
You chose to end it all by hanging from a rope
A crying shame, the dying game
And I just wish i hadn't been a dope

We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
I felt it clearer than the skies above
Although we never called it love

jbal
12-07-2006, 06:21 AM
A couple of comments. "Gay" in the US is associated with homosexuals, and maybe in the UK as well, I don't know. The new verse takes it in a darker direction for sure, but I'm still bothered by the rhyme scheme I think. The dope thing makes it seem cheesy. If you have a good melody and such, you may want to ask yourself: "does this really need to rhyme?" Maybe when you start writing, write it first without rhymes, and add them just at the end of verses, or where it seems appropriate, but don't overdo it.

Also, Wildscribe and myself both mentioned above the lack of rhymes for "love". You took out "dove", which is an improvement. In fact, in Romeo and Juliet there is a line where (I think this is right) Mercutio is concerned about Romeo and he says something to the effect of "Pronounce but love and dove...", indicating that that was considered a pretty cheesy rhyme hundreds of years ago. I'd still try to rearrange the line so that love isn't the last word, or just drop the rhymes completely. It's pretty liberating.

DreamWorks
12-07-2006, 06:38 AM
Thanks jbal... I really appreciate your comments. Fascinating piece of info on R+J. Oh and thank you for introducing me to they might be giants - they are brilliant!!! Everyone check them out!!

jbal
12-07-2006, 06:39 AM
I agree. Cheesy, but one of my all time favorite bands, if not the fave.
Isn't it about six in the morning there? You're up early.

moblues
12-07-2006, 10:11 AM
We never called it love Never call it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of that's what we were thinking of
I felt it clearer than the skies above clearer than the skies above
although we never called it love we never called it love

I never told you that I care,
never said that I cared
Although i'd often stroke your yellow hair I stroked your yellow hair
And everywhere we went, well we made quite a pair we were quite a pair
We'd mess around and dare them all to stare let them stare

But as they say my love has flown away My love has flown away
And every day that passes I become less gay with each passing day I say
The thought of you, the God of youth thoughts of you, god of youth
Gone, like sunshine on a cloudy day

You were a child of love, a child of hope
You chose to end it all by hanging from a rope
A crying shame, the dying game
And I just wish i hadn't been a dope

We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
I felt it clearer than the skies above
Although we never called it love[/QUOTE]

DreamWorks
12-07-2006, 03:56 PM
Jbal, I sleep rarely
Thank you moblue for awesome suggestions... can't help but wonder if you are correcting the icing when you wouldn't actually eat the cake, know what I mean
Lets say I took on board your corrections and perhaps even improved on them, is the body of the song fresh or melodramatic and trite

moblues
12-07-2006, 09:11 PM
I would never call anything melodramatic or trite.

... can't help but wonder if you are correcting the icing when you wouldn't actually eat the cake, know what I mean No I don't.

I left your ending alone, because as Argo recently said to me: It looked like hallowed ground.

Just as in poetry, the art of writing lyrics is simplicity, syntax, and meter.




Mike

DreamWorks
12-07-2006, 09:34 PM
I was just trying to find a subtle way of saying do you basically like the song or not...

moblues
12-07-2006, 09:56 PM
Sorry, DW. Yes, I liked the lyrics very much. That's why I was happy to help.




Mike

DreamWorks
12-07-2006, 11:40 PM
Thanks Mike - sorry for calling you moblue earlier! I'm glad to hear that you liked the lyrics. Its difficult subject matter to make not corny, however... Obviously I want to make it as good as poss. Oh, and please, say what you like, nothing is sacred with me! If I am being trite I deserve to know it, seriously! Well that is just my opinion... Please tell me if this is better or worse... scarlett suggested via pm to make the idea of death more vague, which I liked, so here is my attempt in that direction. (btw this story has never happened to me - i have not yet lost a loved one by cause of death touch wood)

We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer than the skies above
And I know that it was love

I never told you that I care,
I felt it deeply but I didn't dare
A pair of butterflies, we floated through the air,
and if I spoke I felt your wings might tear

An angel never stays for very long
An angel touches deep and leaves behind a song
You are my youth you are my truth
The only thing I did that wasn't wrong

I wish I could turn back the wheels of time
I'd start my life and do it over line by line
Undo my sins, undo my crimes
But first I'd tell you, you my love, are mine

We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer than the skies above
And I know that it was love

WildScribe
12-07-2006, 11:44 PM
We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer than the skies above
And I know that it was love

I never told you that I care,
I felt it deeply but I didn't dare
A pair of butterflies, we floated through the air,
and if I spoke I felt your wings might tear (and) I didn't speak for fear your wings might tear

An angel never stays for very long
An angel touches deep and leaves behind a song
You are my youth you are my truth
The only thing I did that wasn't wrong

I wish I could turn back the wheels of time
I'd start my life and do it over line by line
Undo my sins, undo my crimes
But first I'd tell you, you my love, are mine

We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer than the skies above
And I know that it was love

This is improving quite a bit. Awsome integration of the suggestions. (Sorry for the mass typos, my hands are numb and my typing is suffering)

moblues
12-08-2006, 12:05 AM
I like this even better. The bookending of the opening stanza works very well.

I guess a lot of writers fall in love with their darlings (words).

Less is more. You'll see.

I liked this very much. Make me love it.




Mike

DreamWorks
12-08-2006, 04:17 AM
Oh, you guys are awesome :)
WildScribe, that small correction you made was so desperately needed! My eternal gratitude for that one :)
I will keep working on this Mike, if you think I can do better so can I! Any specific suggestions on how I could make you love this?? Wait let me shut up and just try on my own...


We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer than the skies above
And I know that it was love

I never told you that I care,
I felt it deeply but I didn't dare
A pair of butterflies, we floated through the air,
I didn't speak for fear your wings might tear

I should have known you couldn't stay too long
But as you flew from me you left behind a song
You are my youth you are my truth
The only thing I did that wasn't wrong

* (I wish I could turn back the wheels of time
I'd start my life again from the beginning line
Undo my sins, undo my crimes
But first I'd tell you, you my love, are mine)

We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer than the skies above
And I know that it was love

Your soul is sparkling, it is pure, sublime
And it shall stay that way until the end of time
as you arise, into the skies
Remember dear that one time you were mine

* Alternately fourth Verse could be replaced with the 6th and dropped, keeping it as the bookcase structure
Alternately to that the 6th Verse could just be dropped - depending on whether I want to make it a death poem or not... Because I don't think it's a death poem anymore without the new 6th verse

moblues
12-08-2006, 04:31 AM
Now I'm infatuated. Love is at the door. I'll answer if your writing is my paramour.

Remember. Less is more.

When you write more words, less is said.

You're almost there.




Mike

DreamWorks
12-08-2006, 04:55 AM
Ok I'm just going to demonstrate what I was babbling about at the end of my last post by replacing verse 6 with 4 and cutting 4... Am I there yet? Or do you mean you actually want me to make the sentences shorter by cutting off unneccessary words? Because I need all those syllables for my melody!!

We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer than the skies above
And I know that it was love

I never told you that I care,
I felt it deeply but I didn't dare
A pair of butterflies, we floated through the air,
I didn't speak for fear your wings might tear

I guess an angel never stays too long
But as you flew from me you left behind a song
You are my youth you are my truth
The only thing I did that wasn't wrong

Your soul is sparkling, it is pure, sublime
And it shall stay that way until the end of time
as you arise, into the skies
Please remember, one time you were mine

We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer than the skies above
And I know that it was love

rtilryarms
12-08-2006, 05:29 AM
This is a great use of this board. Thanks. An excellent thread.
You are very open to constructive criticism. This attribute will get you very far.

I am liking the lyrics

DreamWorks
12-08-2006, 05:33 AM
"This is a great use of this board"

I know, right? I am very grateful. Very grateful indeed

Thanks rtilryarms - last one the best?

moblues
12-08-2006, 05:34 AM
Okay. Now that we have established that this is as thin you can go, we can change the structure. If you will be so forgiving: I removed one that. Sorry.

Punctuation and capitalization is up to you. I used my own for form purposes only. No offense was intended.

We never called it love
but I know thats
what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer
than the skies above
and I know that it was love

I never told you I cared,
I felt it deeply
but I didn't dare
a pair of butterflies,
we floated through the air,
I didn't speak for fear
your wings might tear

I guess an angel
never stays too long
but as you flew from me
you left behind a song
You are my youth
you are my truth
the only thing

I did that wasn't wrong

Your soul is sparkling,
it is pure, sublime
and it shall stay that way
until the end of time
as you arise, into the skies
remember dear
that one time

you were mine

We never called it love
but I know thats
what we were thinking of
your eyes shone clearer
than the skies above
and I know that it was love


Respect, my friend




Mike

WildScribe
12-08-2006, 05:34 AM
Oh, you guys are awesome :)
WildScribe, that small correction you made was so desperately needed! My eternal gratitude for that one :)
I will keep working on this Mike, if you think I can do better so can I! Any specific suggestions on how I could make you love this?? Wait let me shut up and just try on my own...


We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer than the skies above
And I know that it was love

I never told you that I care,
I felt it deeply but I didn't dare
A pair of butterflies, we floated through the air,
I didn't speak for fear your wings might tear

I should have known you couldn't stay too long
But as you flew from me you left behind a song (But I cannot forget your echoing song)
You are my youth you are my truth
The only thing I did that wasn't wrong

* (I wish I could turn back the wheels of time
I'd start my life again from the beginning line
Undo my sins, undo my crimes
But first I'd tell you, you my love, are mine)

We never called it love
But I know thats what we were thinking of
Your eyes shone clearer than the skies above
And I know that it was love

Your soul is sparkling, it is pure, sublime
And it shall stay that way until the end of time
as you arise, into the skies (unto God's eyes) <-- this may be silly
Remember dear that one time you were mine

* Alternately fourth Verse could be replaced with the 6th and dropped, keeping it as the bookcase structure
Alternately to that the 6th Verse could just be dropped - depending on whether I want to make it a death poem or not... Because I don't think it's a death poem anymore without the new 6th verse

Glad I could help. I saw the flow was blocked a little, and I just had to act as the poetical ex-lax. SO GLAD that you are listening to critique. You're my new favorite ;)

DreamWorks
12-08-2006, 05:58 AM
Well... Am I certainly glad I had the guts to start posting songs... and once you post one of course it gets easier. Anyway I am just lucky that you guys are not only talented but willing to help... yes AW is my favorite website

Mike, gratitude - yes you are my friend :)
WildScribe, check the rep point you got for that last comment :)

Oops btw I am now officially transposing the song to the old melody and turns out I was a little less than accurate in my syllables
Looks like I will actually have to chop quite a bit more off... hopefully this will make you even happier with the song Mike !

WildScribe
12-08-2006, 06:25 AM
You had me laughing aloud. No, you did not embarrass me. I'm very hard to scare, honestly. Glad you liked my comments. Bad flow just bugs me, so, as I said, I like to tweak. :D Most people get angry when I suggest changes to their precious poems, so I'm on cloud 9 right now... see? :e2cloud9:

DreamWorks
12-08-2006, 07:37 AM
I vowed every night I would write a little poem before going to bed and was so depressed that I hadn't done that tonight when I stumbled on your writing prompt... so thank you for that!

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=970185#post970185