Heraldry - More or less?

MattW · Dec 1, 2006

I've read a lot of Medieval fantasy that has some sort of heraldic depictions in it - some use the rich traditions from history as a template, and others use the minimalist appraoch of simple colors/sigils.

For quasi-Western Medieval stories, yet taking place in a full fantasy setting, what is everyone's opinion?

My belief is that less is better in this instance. Banners, shield, badges and crests should have a standard to them, but not necessarily that of our own world. I like taking cues from heraldic texts and paintings, but would never try to recreate it.

Another thing I ponder is the use of the cross as a major heraldic element, in a non-christian setting. Would a quartered crest still make sense?

dclary · Dec 1, 2006

MattW said:
I've read a lot of Medieval fantasy that has some sort of heraldic depictions in it - some use the rich traditions from history as a template, and others use the minimalist appraoch of simple colors/sigils.

For quasi-Western Medieval stories, yet taking place in a full fantasy setting, what is everyone's opinion?

My belief is that less is better in this instance. Banners, shield, badges and crests should have a standard to them, but not necessarily that of our own world. I like taking cues from heraldic texts and paintings, but would never try to recreate it.

Another thing I ponder is the use of the cross as a major heraldic element, in a non-christian setting. Would a quartered crest still make sense?

Quartered crest would always make sense, I'd think, as well as a triadic or other divisions to show either family unions or purposeful "segments" of a family's history. Chevrons seem logical, as do other geometric shapes. Colors are colors.

Hell, the animals in our crests aren't always real either, so no worries putting creatures thought mythological or magical from your own realm there too.

Saanen · Dec 1, 2006

I don't have a problem with writers taking ideas from heraldry, but on the other hand I don't want the story to bog down in lengthy (and unnecessary) descriptions of crests. Less is definitely more when it comes to descriptions that don't relate to the story in a direct way. Terry Pratchett does a good job using heraldry in one of his Discworld books--one of the Vimes books, but I can't remember which one right off.

Vomaxx · Dec 2, 2006

I enjoy heraldry, but I think that in modern novels the main thing is that the reader can envision what you describe. I would avoid use of heraldic terms (armed, langued, fretty, couped, etc. , etc., ad infinitum) and colors (gules, vert, etc.) in favor of plain English descriptions, and arms should be fairly simple although not necessarily confined to just one element or feature.

JDCrayne · Dec 2, 2006

Saanen said:
Terry Pratchett does a good job using heraldry in one of his Discworld books--one of the Vimes books, but I can't remember which one right off.

*grin*
I can't either. It's the one where the college of heraldry is run by a vampire and when the artists paint the crests they do it with posed live animals as models -- most of whom are pretty geriatric. It's a charming send up of the whole idea -- including the punning family mottos.

Richard White · Dec 3, 2006

If you have any specific questions about heraldry, feel free to drop me a PM. I was a herald in the SCA for almost 20 years (College of Heralds, West Kingdom for part of that).

I agree with the less is more, but a quick description of a shield or a tabbard can add some local color to a story - as long as it's important somehow to the story. (Recognizing a flag on a ship and remembering someone wearing a ring with the same symbol, perhaps?)

zornhau · Dec 4, 2006

Badges - medieval equiv of logos - are probably more useful than the full heraldry.

For example, Warwick the Kingmaker had a full blown heralidc coat-of-arms:

(I think this is it)

But used the Bear and Ragged Staff for everday and battlefield ID:

MattW · Dec 4, 2006

Richard/Zornhau - that's what I'm going for. Simple, practical sigils are effective for character recognition by even commoners - and readers.

GRRM does this pretty well: stag, lion, wolf ,etc. on colored fields.

Evaine · Dec 5, 2006

The Bear and Ragged Staff is also a reasonably common pub name - a lot of old pubs used the badges of great houses as their signs. I grew up around Manchester, where the most popular one was the Eagle and Child (and eagle stealing a baby).

JDCrayne · Dec 5, 2006

Evaine said:
The Bear and Ragged Staff is also a reasonably common pub name - a lot of old pubs used the badges of great houses as their signs. I grew up around Manchester, where the most popular one was the Eagle and Child (and eagle stealing a baby).

The name that has always fascinated me is Elephant and Castle, which I have read is a corruption of Infanta de Castile. I've often wondered what other names have been warped that way.

Heraldry - More or less?

MattW

Company Man

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

Saanen

Vomaxx

JDCrayne

Indonesian Yak Keeper

Richard White

Stealthy Plot Bunny Peddler

zornhau

Swordsman

MattW

Company Man

Evaine

JDCrayne

Indonesian Yak Keeper