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dclary
12-01-2006, 11:18 PM
Clearly upset that Republicans have already reformed healthcare and education while they were in power, Democrats have made an equally bold move in their first month in power:

proposing a permanent tax cut that will benefit the rich FAR more than it will benefit the poor.

Of course, they say it's a middle-classed tax cut, but you tell me.

Here's the article:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20061130-105644-6484r.htm

Now... let's be realistic here. Who benefits most from this? The lower-classed folks paying $300 a year on their trade schools and community colleges? The middle-classed kids paying $5K a year at the state university?

Or those skull and boners at Yale, the USC rich kids, the ivy-leaguers paying $50,000 or more in college tuitions?


So spin it, lefties. How does this tax cut benefit the poor? You who've championed the demmies and cried foul at all the republican tax cuts, bemoaning the fact that they benefit the rich more than the rest of us.

Let's hear it!

Joe Unidos
12-01-2006, 11:37 PM
Deek--
Just a quick question: You do realize that your go-to paper of choice to quote, the Washington Times, is owned and run by the Moonies and not considered a respectable newspaper, right?

robeiae
12-01-2006, 11:44 PM
Deek--
Just a quick question: You do realize that your go-to paper of choice to quote, the Washington Times, is owned and run by the Moonies and not considered a respectable newspaper, right?
Is the WT in the NYT's "Least Respected Newspapers" list? I believe the NYT was on the top of the NYT's "Most Respected Newspapers" list, followed closely by The Miami Herald...

dclary
12-01-2006, 11:48 PM
It's fair across the spectrum of all incomes. But what was that you were saying about "already reformed healthcare and education" again?

Medicare Prescription Plan reform. No Child Left Behind.

Next?


ETA: And whenever I point out that any tax cut that cuts by scale will ALWAYS benefit the rich more than the poor, simply because they're already PAYING more, it gets cut down by the left. Why not this one?

TheGaffer
12-01-2006, 11:48 PM
How about, cram it with walnuts, Deek?

There, that's good. Happy weekend everyone!

Joe Unidos
12-01-2006, 11:49 PM
Is the WT in the NYT's "Least Respected Newspapers" list? I believe the NYT was on the top of the NYT's "Most Respected Newspapers" list, followed closely by The Miami Herald...

Is that some effort to cloud the issue without having to actually come right out and fib, and pretend that you think the Washington Times is a reputable newspaper?

:D

Joe Unidos
12-01-2006, 11:49 PM
Medicare Prescription Plan reform. No Child Left Behind.

Next?

hahahahahahahahaha!


You forgot "Mission Accomplished!"

dclary
12-01-2006, 11:53 PM
Deek--
Just a quick question: You do realize that your go-to paper of choice to quote, the Washington Times, is owned and run by the Moonies and not considered a respectable newspaper, right?


Joe, if your newspapers would report on this, I'd be happy to use them. But since they have a vested interest in protecting democrats from criticism, this isn't likely to happen, is it?

dclary
12-01-2006, 11:55 PM
How about, cram it with walnuts, Deek?

There, that's good. Happy weekend everyone!

I don't even know what that means. Must be some ethnic thing.

;)

dclary
12-01-2006, 11:56 PM
hahahahahahahahaha!


You forgot "Mission Accomplished!"


Laugh it up fuzzball. Your side has b*tched about the need to reform education and medicare for the 30 years they've held the house and senate. We held it for ten and did both. It's your own damn fault if you don't like how we did it. You should have done the job yourselves while you had the chance.

Joe Unidos
12-02-2006, 12:05 AM
Laugh it up fuzzball. Your side has b*tched about the need to reform education and medicare for the 30 years they've held the house and senate. We held it for ten and did both. It's your own damn fault if you don't like how we did it. You should have done the job yourselves while you had the chance.

It'll take another decade to undo the damage you cats did "fixing" it. The GOP's like an old grandfather coming over to fix the dishwasher --you know it's gonna end up costing you more than if he hadn't fvcked around with it first when you finally do have someone who knows what they're doing come and do it right.

dclary
12-02-2006, 12:10 AM
It'll take another decade to undo the damage you cats did "fixing" it. The GOP's like an old grandfather coming over to fix the dishwasher --you know it's gonna end up costing you more than if he hadn't fvcked around with it first when you finally do have someone who knows what they're doing come and do it right.


Like I said. Your own damn fault for not taking it to Sears before he got there in the first place.

billythrilly7th
12-02-2006, 12:43 AM
really do that much to help most of us.

I'm still amazed that people rely on the government to "help them."

Even the biggest tax cut isn't gonna do anything.

"Wow, honey, Hillary just got a huge middle class tax cut passed! We're gonna have an extra $1700 a year!!"

Big freaking deal.

Because $1700 doesn't matter. It's not life changing. It's cool. It's nice. I remember getting my rebate check a few years ago.

"Oh cool...I'll buy a new TV."

It's not life altering. It's not "I'm rich!! Thank you!!!"

But having a robust economy where you have a job that's worth $57,000 or $35,000 or $98,0000 or whatever, is. The tax cuts that really matter are the ones that go to the people that create jobs.

"Oh, the tax cuts are only for corportations and rich people. It doesn't help me!!"

Yeah, I guess that job you have doesn't help.

And as dclary pointed out...if you're only making $52,000, sadly unlike the guy who is making $3,000,000 we can't give you a tax return back of $140,000. You only paid $15,000!!!

Thank you.

TheGaffer
12-02-2006, 12:54 AM
I don't even know what that means. Must be some ethnic thing.

It's a Homer Simpson-ism.

Signalling that I'm just not interested enough but I'm happy to throw some shouting around in the room. I'm like Brick Tamblyn. "I DONT KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!"

robeiae
12-02-2006, 12:55 AM
Is that some effort to cloud the issue without having to actually come right out and fib, and pretend that you think the Washington Times is a reputable newspaper?

:D
Nah...I'm just curious about what newspaper actually is respectable. I only get the NYT and the Miami Herald so I have something to line my tortoise cage with...

robeiae
12-02-2006, 12:58 AM
Because $1700 doesn't matter. It's not life changing. It's cool. It's nice. I remember getting my rebate check a few years ago. It's not life changing for people who just blow their rebate checks on new toys. But keeping an extra hundred or so of your own money every month could allow some people to start saving for their retirement.

billythrilly7th
12-02-2006, 01:04 AM
It's not life changing for people who just blow their rebate checks on new toys. But keeping an extra hundred or so of your own money every month could allow some people to start saving for their retirement.

Yeah...it's nice.

But if they don't have a job, they won't be able to save at all.

dclary
12-02-2006, 01:05 AM
If they don't have a job, why are we sending them a tax rebate?

robeiae
12-02-2006, 01:07 AM
If they don't have a job, why are we sending them a tax rebate?Because that's the only fair thing to do.

billythrilly7th
12-02-2006, 01:08 AM
If they don't have a job, why are we sending them a tax rebate?

Excellent point.

Write that down for our administration.

No job = No tax rebate

billythrilly7th
12-02-2006, 01:10 AM
Because that's the only fair thing to do.

Was it fair that Dewey Oxburger was born that way?

robeiae
12-02-2006, 01:14 AM
They're expecting one of these schlobs...they're not expecting someone like you. You're weird, you're different, you're a mutant...

billythrilly7th
12-02-2006, 01:19 AM
Exactly.

Thank you.

Bartholomew
12-02-2006, 02:10 AM
No Child Left Behind.


Surely you jest. That thing is a laughing stock.

Jean Marie
12-02-2006, 03:06 AM
So many kids get left behind, daily, who could possibly keep score?

I'm interested in why Rob keeps his tortoise in a cage. Why not let it roam, at least a little. That seems both fair and prudent.

dclary
12-02-2006, 03:09 AM
Surely you jest. That thing is a laughing stock.

No, I don't. And don't call me shirley.

Again, you might not agree with the modifications made... but if the left had ever been serious about reform, they would have done it themselves.


I'm not sure why you say NCLB is a laughing stock, though. The only people I hear ridicule it are teacher union wonks who have a vested interest against teachers having to be accountable for their work.


As of May, 2006:


The long-term Nation's Report Card (NAEP) results, released in July 2005, showed elementary school student achievement in reading and math at all-time highs and the achievement gap closing.
More progress was made by nine-year-olds in reading in the last five years than in the previous 28 years combined.
America's nine-year-olds posted the best scores in reading (since 1971) and math (since 1973) in the history of the report. America's 13-year-olds earned the highest math scores the test ever recorded.
Reading and math scores for African American and Hispanic nine-year-olds reached an all-time high.
Math scores for African American and Hispanic 13-year-olds reached an all-time high.
Achievement gaps in reading and math between white and African American nine-year-olds and between white and Hispanic nine-year-olds are at an all-time low.
And for anyone b*tching about Bush underfunding education? He's consistently given it more, not less, money.

How the 2007 budget treats education:

29% increase in total Federal education funding (from $42.2 billion in 2001 to $54.4 billion in 2007);
33% increase in total K-12 funding (from $27.3 billion in 2001 to $36.3 billion in 2007);
40.4% increase in total NCLB funding (from $17.4 billion in 2001 to $24.4 billion in 2007);
45% increase in Title I (from $8.8 billion in 2001 to $12.7 billion in 2007);
68.5% increase for Special Education (IDEA) grants to states (from $6.34 billion in 2001 to $10.7 billion in 2007); and
Quadrupled funding for reading (from $286 million in 2001 to $1.2 billion in 2007) (a 300% increase).

robeiae
12-02-2006, 03:21 AM
I'm interested in why Rob keeps his tortoise in a cage. Why not let it roam, at least a little. That seems both fair and prudent.He gets to wander about, occasionally.

However, the husky I adopted (Shadow) has turned out to be quite the hunter. In the past month, she killed pretty much every animal that has come into our back yard:

3 rats
2 birds
2 mice
1 opossum
1 neighbor's dog (well, she didn't kill it, but almost--and the neighbor's dog dug under my fence and came after my other dog)

I don't want the tortoise to check out anytime soon.

Things are very quiet, now.

robeiae
12-02-2006, 03:23 AM
How the 2007 budget treats education:

29% increase in total Federal education funding (from $42.2 billion in 2001 to $54.4 billion in 2007);
33% increase in total K-12 funding (from $27.3 billion in 2001 to $36.3 billion in 2007);
40.4% increase in total NCLB funding (from $17.4 billion in 2001 to $24.4 billion in 2007);
45% increase in Title I (from $8.8 billion in 2001 to $12.7 billion in 2007);
68.5% increase for Special Education (IDEA) grants to states (from $6.34 billion in 2001 to $10.7 billion in 2007); and
Quadrupled funding for reading (from $286 million in 2001 to $1.2 billion in 2007) (a 300% increase).
The Feds should not be funding state education systems.

Jean Marie
12-02-2006, 03:24 AM
Shadow is definitely a hunter.

Cage is a good place for the tortoise :)

Kola's willing to let some prey go, these days.

SC Harrison
12-02-2006, 03:28 AM
No job = No tax rebate

Man, this reminds me of a huge argument I got in with a couple of girls at work early this year.

One of them (single mother of three) was bragging about receiving a Federal tax refund of over four thousand dollars. When I asked her how much she paid in last year, she said, "Around three thousand."

I said, "No no no. I mean, how much was the total Federal withholding?"

She showed me her W-2, and her 1040 (child credits, etc.), and I went off like a stick of dynamite. Silly me, I always understood a tax return was based on how much you overpaid the government. I was wrong, apparently.

No amount of me explaining how that was wrong could get through. Then I went too far (apparently) when I told her she should at least thank me, since part of that extra thousand was mine. Let it suffice to say that I was deemed "An a$$hole", and didn't understand the plight of single mothers. Nevermind that even when two of my three children were living with me, I still paid child support for the one that didn't.

Jean Marie
12-02-2006, 03:30 AM
clary, nat'l averages are just that, stinkin' averages. they don't account for each little neighborhood, sorry. and that's what I'm talking about.

and Rob's right, Fed $ doesn't belong there. maybe matching dollars, but it should be state funded, you know, state by state. and states that don't have enough tax generated monies can certainly be in a different fed funded category.

too many kids are left behind. the program sucks. minorities are left behind, daily. across the board. can't read. can't write. I call that seriously left in the dust.

dclary
12-02-2006, 03:44 AM
The Feds should not be funding state education systems.

Maybe education should be a federal issue? Or is everybody happy with geographical limitations to educational funding?

dclary
12-02-2006, 03:45 AM
Man, this reminds me of a huge argument I got in with a couple of girls at work early this year.

One of them (single mother of three) was bragging about receiving a Federal tax refund of over four thousand dollars. When I asked her how much she paid in last year, she said, "Around three thousand."

I said, "No no no. I mean, how much was the total Federal withholding?"

She showed me her W-2, and her 1040 (child credits, etc.), and I went off like a stick of dynamite. Silly me, I always understood a tax return was based on how much you overpaid the government. I was wrong, apparently.

No amount of me explaining how that was wrong could get through. Then I went too far (apparently) when I told her she should at least thank me, since part of that extra thousand was mine. Let it suffice to say that I was deemed "An a$$hole", and didn't understand the plight of single mothers. Nevermind that even when two of my three children were living with me, I still paid child support for the one that didn't.

Harrison, this was a HUGE point of contention with the Left from Bush's first set of tax cuts. They said it favored the wealthy, because it gave nothing back to the people who pay less in taxes... They want tax credits, because you earn those regardless of how much you pay in... In other words... because Bush's tax cuts DIDN'T PAY PEOPLE WHO DON'T PAY TAXES... they were a cut for the rich only.

dclary
12-02-2006, 03:53 AM
clary, nat'l averages are just that, stinkin' averages. they don't account for each little neighborhood, sorry. and that's what I'm talking about.

and Rob's right, Fed $ doesn't belong there. maybe matching dollars, but it should be state funded, you know, state by state. and states that don't have enough tax generated monies can certainly be in a different fed funded category.

too many kids are left behind. the program sucks. minorities are left behind, daily. across the board. can't read. can't write. I call that seriously left in the dust.


I disagree. While I think education should be implemented at the city and county level, and managed at the state level, our nation's ability to compete on the international marketplace requires our entire population's children to excel, and for that reason alone, education MUST be a federal-level issue. For God's sake, this is the exact type of problem that the federal government was created for: to help equalize and balance inequalities between state governments.


How has NLCB helped minorities at the state education level, you ask?

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/importance/difference/difference_all_states.pdf


Jean, I ask this in all seriousness... Minorities have ALWAYS struggled in this country. Can you honestly say that NCLB has made their struggle *worse* and if so, can you cite me an example for me to learn from?

Unique
12-02-2006, 04:25 AM
Education Reform - hashed out here daily (http://www.edspresso.com/)

Want some real screamers - check here (http://instructivist.blogspot.com/)

How NCLB really works (http://nochildleft.com/2004/oct04absurd.html)

Or let the Chronicle of Higher Education (http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i39/39b02401.htm) tell you:

"More basic worries focus on the constitutional implications of federal educational guidelines, as well as on the intellectual failings of assessments that force teachers to "teach to the test."

"By multiplying the distractions that already cause schools and students to play down the transmittal of information -- once considered the heart of education and a prerequisite for intelligent thought and values -- No Child Left Behind is draining academic substance out of the classroom. Increasingly, Americans are being taught skills, not content; they are being trained, not educated."

"....the coming generation will be blighted by the No Child Left Behind law. Children will, perhaps, have learned to read and count, but certainly not to think...."
Want more? It's out there - go look.

billythrilly7th
12-02-2006, 04:29 AM
because Bush's tax cuts DIDN'T PAY PEOPLE WHO DON'T PAY TAXES... they were a cut for the rich only.

Yes.

It always amuses me.

English Dave
12-02-2006, 04:34 AM
I'm all for Federal guides to Education. It's slightly less easy to rig a Federal election than it is a school board of Governors.

I mean that seriously. Voter apathy means that an organized crackpot ideology can take over at the grass roots level. Witness Intelligent Design.

dclary
12-02-2006, 04:41 AM
Education Reform - hashed out here daily (http://www.edspresso.com/)

Want some real screamers - check here (http://instructivist.blogspot.com/)

How NCLB really works (http://nochildleft.com/2004/oct04absurd.html)

Or let the Chronicle of Higher Education (http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i39/39b02401.htm) tell you:

"More basic worries focus on the constitutional implications of federal educational guidelines, as well as on the intellectual failings of assessments that force teachers to "teach to the test."

"By multiplying the distractions that already cause schools and students to play down the transmittal of information -- once considered the heart of education and a prerequisite for intelligent thought and values -- No Child Left Behind is draining academic substance out of the classroom. Increasingly, Americans are being taught skills, not content; they are being trained, not educated."

"....the coming generation will be blighted by the No Child Left Behind law. Children will, perhaps, have learned to read and count, but certainly not to think...."
Want more? It's out there - go look.

I can't use link 1 or 2, it's just links to blogs. Can you get me something specific, thanks?

Third link is a good one. What it proclaims is why NCLB isn't any good, and why it won't work. What it DOES NOT DO (and what I asked for) is make the situation any worse.

For instance. Point 4. NCLB sets a standard of getting all kids up to speed by 2014, a goal that is "ridiculous" according to the link, because the existing school systems can't possibly do that for another 61 years.

So I ask you, again, who is at fault here? The government for saying "Enough is enough. Teach the damn kids." or the Teachers and Unions and Academicians for saying "But that's haaaaarrrrrd."

It sure ain't NCLB's fault.

dclary
12-02-2006, 04:43 AM
Education Reform - hashed out here daily (http://www.edspresso.com/)

Want some real screamers - check here (http://instructivist.blogspot.com/)

How NCLB really works (http://nochildleft.com/2004/oct04absurd.html)

Or let the Chronicle of Higher Education (http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i39/39b02401.htm) tell you:

"More basic worries focus on the constitutional implications of federal educational guidelines, as well as on the intellectual failings of assessments that force teachers to "teach to the test."

"By multiplying the distractions that already cause schools and students to play down the transmittal of information -- once considered the heart of education and a prerequisite for intelligent thought and values -- No Child Left Behind is draining academic substance out of the classroom. Increasingly, Americans are being taught skills, not content; they are being trained, not educated."

"....the coming generation will be blighted by the No Child Left Behind law. Children will, perhaps, have learned to read and count, but certainly not to think...."
Want more? It's out there - go look.



And for your fourth link, which is a very nice article, by the way -- I agree mostly with his complaint... The key point here is:


"By multiplying the distractions that already cause schools and students to play down the transmittal of information -- once considered the heart of education and a prerequisite for intelligent thought and values -- No Child Left Behind is draining academic substance out of the classroom. Increasingly, Americans are being taught skills, not content; they are being trained, not educated.

Here, I would argue, is the most insidious effect of the law: not its financial, pedagogic, or constitutional shortcomings, but its devastation of subjects other than reading and math in the first eight grades. "

He even admits that NCLB is being modified to add science to the testing batteries, and that the reason why history is such a hot topic is because of the political sensitivities of WHAT to teach in history -- that isn't an NCLB problem, that's an America problem.


So, you've given me four links. None of them tell me why NCLB is a laughing stock to anyone other than Union Wonks. To most (admittedly not all, but most is greater than the number before it was enacted) kids, it's made a big difference. The only people complaining are teachers, and leftists who cowtow to teacher unions.

Unique
12-02-2006, 05:47 AM
If you'd looked at the first & second link - you'd see that they both link to articles in the news. Instructivist, mostly around Chicago.

Edspresso - around the country. That blog in particular looks at issues in education nationwide.

Unique
12-02-2006, 05:48 AM
The only people complaining are teachers, and leftists who cowtow to teacher unions.

That is assuredly not true. Teachers, parents, even students complain about it.

But since you can't be bothered, I don't mind doing your research. I know where to look.

dclary
12-02-2006, 05:51 AM
I see that they're blogs on education -- I just looked on the front page and didn't see anything on NCLB, that's all.

dclary
12-02-2006, 05:51 AM
That is assuredly not true. Teachers, parents, even students complain about it.

But since you can't be bothered, I don't mind doing your research. I know where to look.

OF COURSE students complain about it. You think they didn't complain before NCLB?

Unique
12-02-2006, 06:03 AM
Read the whole thing. (http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2004/04-19-2004/child.htm)

Don't skip the part about the Bolsheviks or Dewey.

This is all the way at the bottom and I didn't want you to miss it.

"Oklahoma state Representative Bill Graves has a better idea than "reforming" the NCLBA. He wants to get the federal government out of education by doing away with the Department of Education.


Graves told The New American that the Department of Education "should never have been created in the first place." He points out that the exact time when the federal government began to get involved in education was when the literacy rate in the U.S. began to decline. He blames this result on the fact that our public school system is based on the humanistic philosophy of John Dewey, which Graves summarizes as "dumb the kids down, and make the nation safe for socialism."

Did you catch the part about the Federal blackmail of the state of Utah?
I'll be back. There's lots, lots, lots, lots - LOTS more out there.

Sorry, dclary. There aren't many people out there who DO like NCLB. Except maybe a few in Washington DC.

dclary
12-02-2006, 06:12 AM
Clearly somebody likes it, or it wouldn't have been written. Just because you're not in that group doesn't mean you can marginalize those supporters by calling them almost no one.

Anyway, on NCLB, statistics show that NCLB is helping solve the very problems in declining education rates that the 30 years of democrat rule created.

Secondly, while I completely agree that the socialization of education is a leading factor to its suckitude in the US, I also think that the best, most ideal situation is a true federalism-based solution. Local implementation. State-level management. Federal oversight. This ensures that decisions affecting the community are made at the community level, that money is divided across the nation equally, and that each state participates in educating its children responsibly, while all the time being held accountable for that education by a higher authority.

Unique
12-02-2006, 06:20 AM
Here - maybe you'll believe these people: (http://tinyurl.com/yg92bh)

I've shown you lots of people who don't support it, including legislators.

Show me some people who do. Other than the Federal managers of that very bloated budget please. Moms or Dads, teachers, principals, any Congressman, Senator or Representative. I'll read what they have to say.

Bartholomew
12-02-2006, 07:53 AM
No, I don't. And don't call me shirley.

Again, you might not agree with the modifications made... but if the left had ever been serious about reform, they would have done it themselves.


I'm not sure why you say NCLB is a laughing stock, though. The only people I hear ridicule it are teacher union wonks who have a vested interest against teachers having to be accountable for their work.


As of May, 2006:


The long-term Nation's Report Card (NAEP) results, released in July 2005, showed elementary school student achievement in reading and math at all-time highs and the achievement gap closing.
More progress was made by nine-year-olds in reading in the last five years than in the previous 28 years combined.
America's nine-year-olds posted the best scores in reading (since 1971) and math (since 1973) in the history of the report. America's 13-year-olds earned the highest math scores the test ever recorded.
Reading and math scores for African American and Hispanic nine-year-olds reached an all-time high.
Math scores for African American and Hispanic 13-year-olds reached an all-time high.
Achievement gaps in reading and math between white and African American nine-year-olds and between white and Hispanic nine-year-olds are at an all-time low.And for anyone b*tching about Bush underfunding education? He's consistently given it more, not less, money.

How the 2007 budget treats education:

29% increase in total Federal education funding (from $42.2 billion in 2001 to $54.4 billion in 2007);
33% increase in total K-12 funding (from $27.3 billion in 2001 to $36.3 billion in 2007);
40.4% increase in total NCLB funding (from $17.4 billion in 2001 to $24.4 billion in 2007);
45% increase in Title I (from $8.8 billion in 2001 to $12.7 billion in 2007);
68.5% increase for Special Education (IDEA) grants to states (from $6.34 billion in 2001 to $10.7 billion in 2007); and
Quadrupled funding for reading (from $286 million in 2001 to $1.2 billion in 2007) (a 300% increase).

Reasons I dislike NCLB:

Emphasis placed on standardized testings. Education needs to be about something other than passing a test.

A lack of checks and balances regarding teacher and faculty accountability. Who cares if the teachers are held more accountable for their actions? Who handles the data? The schools!

Also, the schools are given more money, as I understand it, when they do poorly. Thus... the incentive to do well is going to be constantly undermined by the incentive to get more funding.

Also-- NCLB places a very heavy emphasis on two sole subjects--Reading and Math. Uh... these are basic skills. An education needs to contain more than two basic skills. And the reports I've read say that NCLB isn't changing the curriculums for these subjects--but how much time is allocated to them. Thus, instead of changing something that already wasn't working, they're doing MORE of the crap that wasn't working, and cutting out time from other equally important subjects.

EDIT

If an administration really cared about education, it'd take some of the money they waste on military expenditures and pour it into the school systems.

robeiae
12-02-2006, 07:57 AM
Maybe education should be a federal issue? Or is everybody happy with geographical limitations to educational funding?Nonsense. Under that rubric, everything should be a federal issue.

What you are not considering is relative control over bureaucracies and institutions, and the consequences of funding sources not based on that control. Education quality will improve if state and local authorities are solely responsible for both the collection and usage of funds.

Also, fed dollars often go to supplemental programs, as mandated by the feds. That's all well and good, but what use are supplemental programs when core programs are not functioning properly?

dclary
12-02-2006, 09:45 AM
Here - maybe you'll believe these people: (http://tinyurl.com/yg92bh)

I've shown you lots of people who don't support it, including legislators.

Show me some people who do. Other than the Federal managers of that very bloated budget please. Moms or Dads, teachers, principals, any Congressman, Senator or Representative. I'll read what they have to say.

The first paragraph of that article says

"Concluding a yearlong study on the effectiveness of President Bush's sweeping education law, No Child Left Behind, a bipartisan panel of lawmakers drawn from many states yesterday pronounced it a flawed, convoluted and unconstitutional education reform initiative that had usurped state and local control of public schools."

That's fine. I can accept that. No law (especially those written today) is perfect in either its language or its implementation. Still, you have to start somewhere, and then fix what doesn't work, improve what can be improved, and stick to what works. That's what these guys are trying to do, and it's all part of the process.

My initial point was that the Republicans did in 10 years what the Demmies could or would not in 30: they reformed education. It's ok that there's debate as to the effectiveness of this reform, but to call it a laughingstock, it is not. Clearly, education was reformed. Some say for the better, some say for the worse. We'll just have to keep working on it, agreeing that whether it works or not, test scores are up, and whether it works or not, everyone's trying harder to make sure their school, district, state, and students are succeeding under the new regulations.

That's reform.

blacbird
12-02-2006, 09:48 AM
The tax cuts that really matter are the ones that go to the people that create jobs.

Jeffrey Skilling, Andrew Fastow, Dennis Kozlowski, Bernard Ebbers, Jack Abramoff, Carl Icahn . . .

caw

dclary
12-02-2006, 09:51 AM
Reasons I dislike NCLB:

Emphasis placed on standardized testings. Education needs to be about something other than passing a test.
Agree. However, until there is a better way to measure book-knowledge among 60 million children under the age of 14 across an area of 9.6 million kilometers, this pretty much is what we've got to go with. How about we use what works, and work on something better, instead of just bitching about not having that something better yet?


A lack of checks and balances regarding teacher and faculty accountability. Who cares if the teachers are held more accountable for their actions? Who handles the data? The schools! I have to admit I don't understand what you're intending here.


Also, the schools are given more money, as I understand it, when they do poorly. Thus... the incentive to do well is going to be constantly undermined by the incentive to get more funding.Actually, schools are penalized for poor performance -- while they can earn some monies to improve performance, the rewards for better performance far outweigh the sluggard schools' monies.


Also-- NCLB places a very heavy emphasis on two sole subjects--Reading and Math. Uh... these are basic skills. An education needs to contain more than two basic skills. And the reports I've read say that NCLB isn't changing the curriculums for these subjects--but how much time is allocated to them. Thus, instead of changing something that already wasn't working, they're doing MORE of the crap that wasn't working, and cutting out time from other equally important subjects.Unique's article discussed this very topic (up where I said it was a good article and that I agreed with it). You'll be happy to know that science is being included in NCLB testing starting next year, and that an effort is underway to bring history into the fold. Happy?



EDIT

If an administration really cared about education, it'd take some of the money they waste on military expenditures and pour it into the school systems.I agree.

blacbird
12-02-2006, 09:52 AM
The Feds should not be funding state education systems.

Why not?

caw

dclary
12-02-2006, 09:52 AM
Nonsense. Under that rubric, everything should be a federal issue.

What you are not considering is relative control over bureaucracies and institutions, and the consequences of funding sources not based on that control. Education quality will improve if state and local authorities are solely responsible for both the collection and usage of funds.

Also, fed dollars often go to supplemental programs, as mandated by the feds. That's all well and good, but what use are supplemental programs when core programs are not functioning properly?


Ow! Fiscal policy makes my head hurt!

billythrilly7th
12-02-2006, 09:56 AM
Jeffrey Skilling, Andrew Fastow, Dennis Kozlowski, Bernard Ebbers, Jack Abramoff, Carl Icahn . . .

caw


:rolleyes:

Thank you.

billythrilly7th
12-02-2006, 09:57 AM
Ow! Fiscal policy makes my head hurt!

Yes.

We'll find some good people to handle it.

dclary
12-02-2006, 09:58 AM
Jeffrey Skilling, Andrew Fastow, Dennis Kozlowski, Bernard Ebbers, Jack Abramoff, Carl Icahn . . .

caw

Exactly.

The companies Carl Icahn owns (not including time/warner) employ tens of thousands of americans.

robeiae
12-02-2006, 05:46 PM
Why not?

cawWhy should they? It's not defined as one of the duties or one of their powers in the Constitution.

And saying "Education is important" won't get you anywhere. Why have the feds handle it? Just more opportunities for waste and corruption by sending money to DC so they can send it back to my local school. It really defies reason. Other than touchy-feely nonsense, what do those that defend federal education funding have to hang their hat on? Their great track record of successes?

SC Harrison
12-02-2006, 07:35 PM
Why should they? It's not defined as one of the duties or one of their powers in the Constitution.

And saying "Education is important" won't get you anywhere. Why have the feds handle it? Just more opportunities for waste and corruption by sending money to DC so they can send it back to my local school. It really defies reason. Other than touchy-feely nonsense, what do those that defend federal education funding have to hang their hat on? Their great track record of successes?

Word has it that the $50 million the government is spending on Abstinence education yearly is paying off. Fifteen year-old Brandi Waverly, an eighth-grader who is gleefully approaching her sixteenth birthday which will allow her to drop out of school, recently stated, "My future is important to me, which is why I told my ex-boyfriend Tommy I wasn't going to put out until he bought me a pre-engagement ring to replace this stupid charm bracelet."

dahmnait
12-02-2006, 10:31 PM
An interesting read (http://www.educationsector.org/analysis/analysis_show.htm?doc_id=336629)on NCLB. According to the article, NCLB had some serious revisions before it went into place (of course we know that). These revisions have caused many of the problems we are dealing with now.

As a parent, I no longer have much say in my child's education. To me, this is wrong. My daughter should have been held back years ago. She was failing every class because she didn't understand the theories and concepts behind what she was being taught. She could memorize though, so she passed the standardized testing. Because of this, the schools passed her from grade to grade. When I tried to intervene, they still wouldn't hold her back because, according to the testing, she passed. If the school held her back, it reflects badly on the school.

How does a student who has a D average pass to the next grade level? How does this student show that NCLB works? How does this help my daughter and every other child like her? My daughter is not a single case scenario. This is happening everywhere. It's ironic that these children are being left behind because of the way the No Child Left Behind act works.

I am not saying that the educational system doesn't need reform. Nor do I place the blame on any one party. The failure falls on both sides.

ETA: So this doesn't become part of the issue - I do work with my daughter in regards to her educational development. However, there are things I don't know or don't remember. I do my best, but my best is not good enough. That is why I have her in school, so that she can learn from those who are best equipped to teach her.


Sorry dclary. I know that this isn't where your op was heading, but it does seem to be where the thread has gone.

dclary
12-02-2006, 11:31 PM
It happens, T. At AW? It happens.

But NCLB is a worthy topic. Better this than the bizarre fetish hijacks of OP. ;)

dahmnait
12-04-2006, 01:41 AM
But NCLB is a worthy topic. Better this than the bizarre fetish hijacks of OP. ;)But then, bizarre fetish hijacks get more responses. :D

dclary
12-04-2006, 03:32 AM
Ain't that the truth. If only NCLB included a "ball gag and nipple clamps for underperforming students" clause...

zarch
12-04-2006, 10:05 PM
Okie dokie. I'm a high school English teacher with a M.S. in educational leadership as well. A few things:

1) Deek's right on standardized testing--you got a better way to figure out if kids are learning, or if teachers are teaching? No one likes taking these tests, and no one likes administering them. But the fact remains that they give a fairly accurate assessment of what's happening on a particular campus. And in the case of my home state (Texas), the correlation between our state curricula and our state exams is rekmarkable. So the tests are valid and reliable. Unpleasant, yes, but valid and reliable.

2) Teachers and administrators constantly moan about NCLB (which education insiders call "nickelby"...and THAT is annoying) because of "underfunding," especially in relation to the standards/expectations. I mean, I hear this a whole lot. But I've never heard an educator tell me exactly what's being underfunding and how the results of the underfunding have been catastrophic.

3) Dahmnait, a D is generally considered passing. If a student masters at least 70% of course material and passes the required state exam, then she passes. If she's mastering the skills, then she isn't being left behind. Where I'm from, memorization does not help a student on the test. Skills do.

4) I tend to think that the (public) education community's disgust with NCLB has more to do with its architect than its content.